"Fierce 5" Comprehensive Program List

[pierrelu]

Hi Davies and others,

Im about to start working out again after not being working out in the gym this last year. I have two reasons as to why i need to get back at this; 1st i have started to suffer from back pain (my understanding of what my naprapath tells me is due to Lordosis), and i want to become quicker on my road bike for next season.

Now... Can i complement the Lordosis program with the beginner full body workout for maximum results? Or should i focus on the Lordosis program these first 6-8 weeks and then move onto the beginner program?

What I'm really looking for is a program to gain strength and mobility, rather than a lot of size. Mostly, road cyclists aren't that bulky due to the excessive drag/neg aerodynamics of a big body :P Am i on the right track here with this program?

[connorpat1995]

^^you'd reach your goals faster just running the upper/lower with lordosis lower at first.
If your lifts are still in the novice stage, progression can be faster. +5lb per workout or something like that would be fitting

[zahz]

With the lat pulldowns I've noticed you have said these are interchangeable with pull ups etc, are there any other exercises also this could work with?

Secondly, can I change leg curls to another exercise as well?

[pd5702]

I probably fall in the beginner spectrum in terms of my lifts but I prefer the intermediate for it's intensity. Would I be wrong to go with what I'm used to with the intermediate or should i stick with the beginner until I increase my lifts? I'm sitting at about a 135 bench, 275 deadlift, 275 squat, 95 ohp

[ardee2124]

Davis, do you define intermediate as the standard 2-3-4 standard?

Thing is I'm on something similar to Babylover's SS but my squat and deadlifts are problematic due to a back issue. My bench however just hit 190x5, and hopefully will be 225 by the end of the year. Do you think I could hop on PPL ot UL from your program or would you wait until I can squat properly again and stick on BBSL or do your novice routine until I can do 315? (I was at 245 pre injury, now I can do about 175 with no discomfort)

[unstrong]

Davis is away for the week; I'll answer some questions.

With the lat pulldowns I've noticed you have said these are interchangeable with pull ups etc, are there any other exercises also this could work with?

Secondly, can I change leg curls to another exercise as well?

There is a list of acceptable substitutions in the first post.

Potential leg curl substitutions depend on which program you are running.

I probably fall in the beginner spectrum in terms of my lifts but I prefer the intermediate for it's intensity. Would I be wrong to go with what I'm used to with the intermediate or should i stick with the beginner until I increase my lifts? I'm sitting at about a 135 bench, 275 deadlift, 275 squat, 95 ohp

I mean, you can do whatever program you want, you'll probably just progress a bit more slowly on an intermediate program due to 2x/week vs. 3x/week muscle frequency. If you are more motivated doing the intermediate program, though, there's no problem sticking with that. Your lower body lifts are at least close to the intermediate level.

Davis, do you define intermediate as the standard 2-3-4 standard?

Thing is I'm on something similar to Babylover's SS but my squat and deadlifts are problematic due to a back issue. My bench however just hit 190x5, and hopefully will be 225 by the end of the year. Do you think I could hop on PPL ot UL from your program or would you wait until I can squat properly again and stick on BBSL or do your novice routine until I can do 315? (I was at 245 pre injury, now I can do about 175 with no discomfort)

You should let your injury heal, then reevaluate. Have you seen a doctor? What did he/she say? Continuing to squat, even light, could be prolonging the injury depending on the circumstances. It's impossible to do an internet diagnosis and we are unqualified to do so, which is why you should see a doctor.

[connorpat1995]

Davis, do you define intermediate as the standard 2-3-4 standard?

Thing is I'm on something similar to Babylover's SS but my squat and deadlifts are problematic due to a back issue. My bench however just hit 190x5, and hopefully will be 225 by the end of the year. Do you think I could hop on PPL ot UL from your program or would you wait until I can squat properly again and stick on BBSL or do your novice routine until I can do 315? (I was at 245 pre injury, now I can do about 175 with no discomfort)

The novice routine is compatible with other types of progression for your bench. My suggestion would be once you're clear to squat and DL, do so on the full-body routine but use something different for pressing like madcow

[ardee2124]

You should let your injury heal, then reevaluate. Have you seen a doctor? What did he/she say? Continuing to squat, even light, could be prolonging the injury depending on the circumstances. It's impossible to do an internet diagnosis and we are unqualified to do so, which is why you should see a doctor.

I have, I did physio. It's better than it was, but my physio said I just need to work on strengthening my core and glutes now and do stretches, there's not much she can do. She said it's ok to squat but it still hurts above 175, so yeah, I'm probably going to give it a rest.

Do you think Push/Pull/rest/repeat is a good option for now?

[connorpat1995]

I have, I did physio. It's better than it was, but my physio said I just need to work on strengthening my core and glutes now and do stretches, there's not much she can do. She said it's ok to squat but it still hurts above 175, so yeah, I'm probably going to give it a rest.

Do you think Push/Pull/rest/repeat is a good option for now?

run the lordisis lower, kyphosis upper if you have it otherwise the regular upper workout

[ardee2124]

run the lordisis lower, kyphosis upper if you have it otherwise the regular upper workout

I don't have lordosis though... it's a muscular strain in my lower back, not really a problem with the actual spine. My PT was specific not to characterize it as lordosis.

And nah no kyphosis. I am religious about having much more pull than push. Probably like a 3 or 4/1 ratio haha, all I do for push is bench (which is working, making good progress on that).

[zahz]

There is a list of acceptable substitutions in the first post.

Potential leg curl substitutions depend on which program you are running.

I would rather do something else other than leg curls/leg extensions, most likely free weights, lunges instead of curls and need something else for extensions? Would there be any substitutions for Face pulls?

Lastly, due to the layout of my gym / benches I can't do Decline Dumbbell bench, any suggestions for this?

EDIT: Oh and I want to do the "The Intermediate Upper/Lower" program.

Thanks.

[Gorz123]

This is an edit I did to workout b due to preferences:

Front Squat 3 X 5
Overhead Press 3 X 5
Chin-up 3 X 5
Romanian Deadlift 3 X 8
Ab Work 2 x 15
DB Curl 2 X 10

Only real change was that I changed lat pull down to chin-up and reduced the rep range to 5. Thoughts? Also, I would really like to do conventional DL but, I don't have a leg curl machine at home to make the other sub (Front Squat and RLD or DL and leg curls). Is there no other way to fit in regular DL's here?

[connorpat1995]

I don't have lordosis though... it's a muscular strain in my lower back, not really a problem with the actual spine. My PT was specific not to characterize it as lordosis. I wouldn't skip leg altogether because you can't squat, I'd give lordosis lower a shot and see if any of it bothers your back. Consult with PT of course

I would rather do something else other than leg curls/leg extensions, most likely free weights, lunges instead of curls and need something else for extensions? Would there be any substitutions for Face pulls?
GHR for leg curls, lunges may work for leg extensions, but that might just be too much heavy work. I'd wait for Davis to come back on that one.
Reverse flyes instead of face pulls
Lastly, due to the layout of my gym / benches I can't do Decline Dumbbell bench, any suggestions for this?
Dips, BB decline bench, flat BB or DB bench all work. Don't be afraid to use a ton of arch on flat bench
EDIT: Oh and I want to do the "The Intermediate Upper/Lower" program.

Thanks.

Only real change was that I changed lat pull down to chin-up and reduced the rep range to 5. Thoughts? Why change to 5? If you can keep them strict it can work fine but I find that lower rep chins almost always end in less-than-perfect form Also, I would really like to do conventional DL but, I don't have a leg curl machine at home to make the other sub (Front Squat and RLD or DL and leg curls). Is there no other way to fit in regular DL's here? Good-mornings can work instead of leg curls

Answers bolded

[unstrong]

I have, I did physio. It's better than it was, but my physio said I just need to work on strengthening my core and glutes now and do stretches, there's not much she can do. She said it's ok to squat but it still hurts above 175, so yeah, I'm probably going to give it a rest.

Do you think Push/Pull/rest/repeat is a good option for now?

Maybe consider seeing how a barbell hip thrust feels as a temporary replacement for squats, if your doctor says that your glutes need strengthening.

I would rather do something else other than leg curls/leg extensions, most likely free weights, lunges instead of curls and need something else for extensions? Would there be any substitutions for Face pulls?

Lastly, due to the layout of my gym / benches I can't do Decline Dumbbell bench, any suggestions for this?

EDIT: Oh and I want to do the "The Intermediate Upper/Lower" program.

Thanks.

You don't want to do something that stresses the lower back (you already have plenty of that on both lower days), so something like a glute-ham raise or leg curl is going to be the ticket. There are some ways to finagle other equipment than a glute-ham developer to do the exercise out there.

You can sub reverse flies for face pulls if you'd like.

Dips can be a decent sub for decline bench; does your gym have a dip station?

This is an edit I did to workout b due to preferences:

Front Squat 3 X 5
Overhead Press 3 X 5
Chin-up 3 X 5
Romanian Deadlift 3 X 8
Ab Work 2 x 15
DB Curl 2 X 10

Only real change was that I changed lat pull down to chin-up and reduced the rep range to 5. Thoughts? Also, I would really like to do conventional DL but, I don't have a leg curl machine at home to make the other sub (Front Squat and RLD or DL and leg curls). Is there no other way to fit in regular DL's here?

I did good mornings in place of leg curls and did conventional deadlifts. This has been mostly fine if you are able to keep good form.

Why do you want to do chin ups in the 5 rep range? It's probably fine, but keep in mind the program was written with a certain balance in mind and chin ups are very sensitive to added weight. You'll be reducing the pulling volume by doing this.

[Gorz123]

Well I wanted to do Chin-ups in the 5 reps so it would be similar to bench/squat/deadlift.

I was thinking about doing good mornings but, don't those also work the lower back? Also, are conventional deadlifts 1 X 5 or 3 X 5?

[unstrong]

Well I wanted to do Chin-ups in the 5 reps so it would be similar to bench/squat/deadlift.

I was thinking about doing good mornings but, don't those also work the lower back? Also, are conventional deadlifts 1 X 5 or 3 X 5?

Conventional Deadlifts are 3x5.

Good Mornings do tax the lower back a bit, but primarily work your hamstrings. If you have access to a glute-ham developer, I do recommend that. If you don't and don't want to do leg curls, I don't think it's a problem--it taxes the back together with deads basically the same amount as front squat+RDL would. You should be keeping the weight fairly manageable anyway, and follow the same protocol for increasing weight as for leg curls.

Yeah, I don't think that's a great reason to switch to the 5 rep range for the chins. Getting volume in with good form is probably more important. It's also not like you'll be adding a ton of weight by switching to the 5 rep range.

[davisj3537]

Trust in the answers you're receiving from Connor and Unstrong. If anything hasn't been answered to your satisfaction ask me Sunday when I get back to the US and have decent internet again.

[zahz]

@Davis my gym does have decline for barbell, will that be fine? Since dumbbells are restricted to an area with no decline bench.

What could I do for leg extensions though?

[davisj3537]

@Davis my gym does have decline for barbell, will that be fine? Since dumbbells are restricted to an area with no decline bench.

What could I do for leg extensions though?

Why wouldn't decline BB be fine?


Leg ext sub you can try step ups or sissy squats. Look them up and pick one.

[ardee2124]

Davis, my PT cleared me to squat again but she has me refrain from deadlifts of any kind. So I'm probably going to do heavy leg curls instead of Romanians in Workout B. It'll be very weird because I'm benching 190x5 right now and when I start squatting at least at the beginning I'll be at 135x5 (though it'll probably go up REAL fast).

[davisj3537]

Davis, my PT cleared me to squat again but she has me refrain from deadlifts of any kind. So I'm probably going to do heavy leg curls instead of Romanians in Workout B. It'll be very weird because I'm benching 190x5 right now and when I start squatting at least at the beginning I'll be at 135x5 (though it'll probably go up REAL fast).

It will go up very very fast. I'd ask about hip thrusts. Fantastic exercise.

[Antaxious]

I also sent a PM

But in case this question was not answered yet, I supposed it might prove usefull for future trainees.


what weights should I start using when transitioning from the Beginner routine to the Upper/lower Intermediate Routine ?


Or does it not matter what I did on the beginner routine, and I start progress on all exercises from scratch ?

Example if my benchpress is max 85 kg x 5

I thought about starting the intermediate workout with benchpress 40 kg


Thanks again for these amazing workouts !

[davisj3537]

I also sent a PM

But in case this question was not answered yet, I supposed it might prove usefull for future trainees.


what weights should I start using when transitioning from the Beginner routine to the Upper/lower Intermediate Routine ?


Or does it not matter what I did on the beginner routine, and I start progress on all exercises from scratch ?

Example if my benchpress is max 85 kg x 5

I thought about starting the intermediate workout with benchpress 40 kg


Thanks again for these amazing workouts !

I'd do a slight weight reduction. Say 10%. I replied to your log about the same time you PMd me. If you feel you've exhausted beginner gains feel free to jump on the UL routine.

[ardee2124]

I'd do a slight weight reduction. Say 10%. I replied to your log about the same time you PMd me. If you feel you've exhausted beginner gains feel free to jump on the UL routine.

Just started my log bro, have a look when you can

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1314414641

[davisj3537]

Just started my log bro, have a look when you can

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...post1314414641

Looks good man. I'd love to follow it, but following all the F5 logs drove me into the ground. I nearly stopped posting all together:/

[DEEETS]

Looks good man. I'd love to follow it, but following all the F5 logs drove me into the ground. I nearly stopped posting all together:/

Davis, obviously F5 has really taken off and impossible to follow all logs, have you thought about asking people to post their progress, i.e. a simple table/text of progress over 3,6,9,12 months?

ps - don't stop posting!

[bpshock]

Hey Davis,

Solid program. I effing love it. Been on it for a few months and numbers have always been going up. Everything just feels right in terms of volume, recovery, and progression. Got a question:

I'm naturally stronger and more developed in my back. Currently, I can hit 3 sets of 6 305 lbs well below parallel back squats, 3 sets of 6 flat bb bench 235 lbs, but my deads I can sumo 3 sets of 430 for 6. As you can see my deadlift numbers are far more impressive (keep in mind all with solid form as that is my primary focus first). My chest is not impressive and it's been the slowest in terms of progressing (e.g., squats and deads have been solid in the last few months with 1 or 2 stalls, but chest has had like 3 or 4). I'm 185 pounds now and I have been doing your U/L PPL 5 day routine. Goal is for bodybuilding and not trying to PL.

Tuesdays I hit chest with 3 sets of incline bb bench then 3 sets of decline db bench (as directed in the routine).
Fridays I hit chest with 3 sets of flat bb bench then at the end 3 sets of cable flies (as directed in the routine).

I end up only doing 3 sets for each chest exercise because I sort of burn out and don't want to go to failure on a fourth set with a few reps short. I think my sticking points are at the bottom of the lift. I really am not sure if I should add a bit more volume for my weak bench since I never have been doing the "1-3" optional sets as you mentioned. I was thinking about every week including 3 sets of spoto presses on the flat bb bench (not sure what weight or reps to do if I do this) right after my 3x5 sets of regular flat bb bench. Maybe this will help my strength on the bench? Or should I just keep it as it is since I still am technically progressing but just not as fast as my others? My chest growth (and strength obv) was something I wanted to concentrate on during this bulk.

[davisj3537]

Davis, obviously F5 has really taken off and impossible to follow all logs, have you thought about asking people to post their progress, i.e. a simple table/text of progress over 3,6,9,12 months?

ps - don't stop posting!

I haven't really thought of doing that. A see a lot of people doing it anyway though. I'm all for it.

Hey Davis,

Solid program. I effing love it. Been on it for a few months and numbers have always been going up. Everything just feels right in terms of volume, recovery, and progression. Got a question:

I'm naturally stronger and more developed in my back. Currently, I can hit 3 sets of 6 305 lbs well below parallel back squats, 3 sets of 6 flat bb bench 235 lbs, but my deads I can sumo 3 sets of 430 for 6. As you can see my deadlift numbers are far more impressive (keep in mind all with solid form as that is my primary focus first). My chest is not impressive and it's been the slowest in terms of progressing (e.g., squats and deads have been solid in the last few months with 1 or 2 stalls, but chest has had like 3 or 4). I'm 185 pounds now and I have been doing your U/L PPL 5 day routine. Goal is for bodybuilding and not trying to PL.

Tuesdays I hit chest with 3 sets of incline bb bench then 3 sets of decline db bench (as directed in the routine).
Fridays I hit chest with 3 sets of flat bb bench then at the end 3 sets of cable flies (as directed in the routine).

I end up only doing 3 sets for each chest exercise because I sort of burn out and don't want to go to failure on a fourth set with a few reps short. I think my sticking points are at the bottom of the lift. I really am not sure if I should add a bit more volume for my weak bench since I never have been doing the "1-3" optional sets as you mentioned. I was thinking about every week including 3 sets of spoto presses on the flat bb bench (not sure what weight or reps to do if I do this) right after my 3x5 sets of regular flat bb bench. Maybe this will help my strength on the bench? Or should I just keep it as it is since I still am technically progressing but just not as fast as my others? My chest growth (and strength obv) was something I wanted to concentrate on during this bulk.

Great lifts man. Glad you're liking the program. As an intermediate lifter you have a lot more freedom in terms of subs/additions than a novice lifter. If you feel a few spoto presses would be beneficial then add them in. The volume is fairly light compared to most intermediate/advanced programs so I don't think adding 3 sets is gonna mess anything up, though you may be f*cking exhausted when you finish the workout. lol

Don't get too caught up on bench sticking points. You're supposed to struggle off the chest.

[Sociopathy]

Been on the beginner routine for 5 weeks now, just did the first workout for my 6th week.

Lifts are all steadily increasing and I know that I can keep going except for one exercise.. front squats.. I'm starting to have difficulties pushing the weight, what should I do about it now? Maintain the weight for the lift only or do I drop back on all my other lifts as well?

[davisj3537]

Been on the beginner routine for 5 weeks now, just did the first workout for my 6th week.

Lifts are all steadily increasing and I know that I can keep going except for one exercise.. front squats.. I'm starting to have difficulties pushing the weight, what should I do about it now? Maintain the weight for the lift only or do I drop back on all my other lifts as well?

Well the program FAQs would tell you to continue progressing until you fail the same weight twice. Then for the that exercise only you drop 10% and work back up using the planned progression. I strongly feel this is the best approach, hence why it's designed this way.