"Fierce 5" Comprehensive Program List

[RK42]

Also, any tips for always feeling contractions during rows? (i have trouble sometimes, where some workouts I don't feel the back contract at all.)

You may have seen this elsewhere, but one mental cue that I find helpful for all rowing movements is to focus on pulling your elbows up/back. So don't think about pulling the weight up/back, or the hands. Focus your effort on pulling your elbows behind your back, and simply let the rest follow. That should help you really get the back muscles involved.

Holding the weight for a moment at the end position can also help feel the back contraction.

[davisj3537]

1: so for barbell row, 45 degrees is what you recommend? Also, any tips for always feeling contractions during rows? (i have trouble sometimes, where some workouts I don't feel the back contract at all.

2: Is it okay for me to do lat pulldowns on both days? With the progression scheme I mentioned? workout B for lat pulldowns is just repeating workout A's weights and reps. So when workout A's reps go up, so do workout B's, and the same applies for weight increases.

3: okay, i may do cable curls then. I was just wondering if I was losing out on any arm gains by not doing something like barbell or dumbbell curls. Cable is better for convenience when the weights are scattered across the gym.

4: alright, i'll skip on doing the lateral raises and see how it goes in the following months.

5: all of that makes complete sense. You're absolutely right, I'm in no position to be going after weak points. Compound progression is what I'll keep the focus on.
thank you

1. Yes. Contraction on pulling is an art and it's not as easy as pressing. Another reason I like more back volume. You'll have to figure this one out on your own.

2. Yes

My understanding was that if you subbed Pendlay for BOR you should be bent over with arms perpendicular to floor, wide grip and flaring the elbows out.

Same back angle as the pendlay but the weight doesnt touch the floor.

The reason I thought BOR wasnt a sub is that people tend to decrease the back angle and row into the lower chest/upper adominal and recruit too much of the Lats, not focusing on squeezing the mid back.

I could be totally wrong though. It happens alot...

You're completely right.

Well, got back from the Doc.. I have excellent blood pressure, 7?/115. Said he didn't see a problem with my lungs and heart. He checked out my back and said no to lordosis, but that I did have some bad hip tilt and get this, some mild scoliosis. He was cool with my suggestion to get Physical Therapy. Have to get an X-ray for my back. Told him where I wanted to go and he already knew about the place, so I didn't need to give him any info on that.

Overall went well, I'm healthy and that's what matters.

My wife said that same thing basically. I think doctors have a little more defined understanding of lordosis. It is thrown around a bit looser in the fitness industry. Your hip tilt is "anterior pelvic tilt" and is causing your "lordosis."

Your PT should rectify it all.

[Stevenson447]

Hello!

I started the Upper/Lower program a few weeks ago and so far so good!

However, I'm finding it a little hard on the lower back. It seems to be sore most of the time and I'm worried about injury. Is there a good substitute for weighted back extensions? I find those with RDL 3 days earlier quite taxing.

[DamonX]

Gotcha!
Alright in summary, correct me if i've misinterpreted:

bent over rows: done at 45 degree angle, with arms in the bench press form (elbows tucked closer to body), brought to belly button area. I used shoulder-width grip, otherwise I can't feel it at all.

pendlay rows: done in pendlay form, back is parallel with the floor, elbows flared (the way you're NOT supposed to bench), brought to upper abs/lower chest. Grip, find whatever works best?

When I watched the pendlay row video you posted, it looked like the elbows were tucked, like in bench form.

[gran172]

Hey man, quick question here, in the OP you say i should start with 85% of what i think i can handle so i can learn proper form, thing is i've been training for like a year and a half now(did All Pro's for a while before this) so i know my form is ok, i feel fine doing bench, squats, rdl, etc, so should i still start with 85%? This week for example i did 132x5 on squats, it wasn't light but i felt like i could have added a little more weight and my form would still be fine, so should i keep the weight the same on the next week or should i add 10lbs?

[Farley1324]

Hey man, quick question here, in the OP you say i should start with 85% of what i think i can handle so i can learn proper form, thing is i've been training for like a year and a half now(did All Pro's for a while before this) so i know my form is ok, i feel fine doing bench, squats, rdl, etc, so should i still start with 85%? This week for example i did 132x5 on squats, it wasn't light but i felt like i could have added a little more weight and my form would still be fine, so should i keep the weight the same on the next week or should i add 10lbs?

I'll jump in on the form. Why do you know your form is good? Time spent training doesn't mean you have good form. Have you posted form check videos to the forum?

132 what?

[wowter]

Gotcha!
Alright in summary, correct me if i've misinterpreted:

bent over rows: done at 45 degree angle, with arms in the bench press form (elbows tucked closer to body), brought to belly button area. I used shoulder-width grip, otherwise I can't feel it at all.

pendlay rows: done in pendlay form, back is parallel with the floor, elbows flared (the way you're NOT supposed to bench), brought to upper abs/lower chest. Grip, find whatever works best?

When I watched the pendlay row video you posted, it looked like the elbows were tucked, like in bench form.

Afaik BOR = elbows close to body like a close grip bench press, and pendlay = elbows flared to around the same degree you would with a bench press.

[bob2589]

There is a good form video fornthe Pendlay row with the man himself on the first page of the F5 Novice sticky. Check that out if you havent seen it.

The main thing I focus on with the Pendlay is flaring the elbows out and squeezing the scap at the top.

It's different to the BOR in that its more of an explosive movement ripping the bar up from the floor, whereas with BOR you focus on TUT.

[hereforadvice]

Really looking to start the Novice Routine next month (lean bulk) once I finish my cut cycle (hopefully I'll be able to get down to around 10-11% body fat- currently at 12.6%).

I'll be working out at home and really want to try giving the pull-ups a go instead of the lat pulldown. At the moment I cannot do one but I want to give it a try.
I'm just wondering, can I use resistance bands to start out? And what should be my set/rep whilst using the bands?

Or am I just better off ditching it and doing lats instead? I do have a lat pulldown machine at home but the seating is a bit awkward (it doesn't have the quad foams for support)

[gran172]

I'll jump in on the form. Why do you know your form is good? Time spent training doesn't mean you have good form. Have you posted form check videos to the forum?

132 what?

Sorry, my bad. I've posted form check for Squats on both reddit and i think here too, DL's and Bench i dont have any recordings right now but i'm 99% sure my form is ok (asked a few trainers in my gym and they said it was ok, plus i've watched some videos by Alan Thrall on youtube to make sure). 132lbs. Only lift i've got recorded right now is squats, here's a vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emTizUMybm4

[DamonX]

holy crap man, 2 weeks until I finally get to current rep maxes and I wake up this morning with a sore throat and da sniffles.

y dis always happen right when I'm about to progress, like my body always auto regulates itself by saying F U.

:/

[QuickReflection]

Really looking to start the Novice Routine next month (lean bulk) once I finish my cut cycle (hopefully I'll be able to get down to around 10-11% body fat- currently at 12.6%).

I'll be working out at home and really want to try giving the pull-ups a go instead of the lat pulldown. At the moment I cannot do one but I want to give it a try.
I'm just wondering, can I use resistance bands to start out? And what should be my set/rep whilst using the bands?

Or am I just better off ditching it and doing lats instead? I do have a lat pulldown machine at home but the seating is a bit awkward (it doesn't have the quad foams for support)

How are you getting such precise measurements for BF%? Like the most accurate method can be 1-3% off.

[QuickReflection]

Hey davis,

Do you think it would be fine if I tried to see what my 1RMs are for the core lifts today?

[MyEgoProblem]

Hey davis,

Do you think it would be fine if I tried to see what my 1RMs are for the core lifts today?

Id put them into a 1rm calc if i was you and work from that... But then again, I'm a do as i say not as i do guy..

Ive just had a squat pr day yesterday and bench pr day today.. :-D soooo..

Just be safe, don't fly to close to the sun and make sure you video them... Oh and take an extra day off afterwards if you wipe your self out.. Failure on high rpe reps can take a lot out of your peripheral nervous system.

Obv that note.. Pr vids..

[QuickReflection]

Id put them into a 1rm calc if i was you and work from that... But then again, I'm a do as i say not as i do guy..

I did that and calculated what I think my 1 RMs should be. I saw suffolkpunch say that 3X5 is a 8RM, so I am going based off that.

I do have a question though.. How do I build up to my 1RM? Like I have it calculated.. I'm going for (150 1.11 X BW) on bench and 185 (1.3 X BW) for Squat (I still have high BF above 20%), but I don't know a few things related to that. 1) If I crush my goal and can go for more, how much do I add? Obviously, I want an optimal amount so that I don't go too low to wear myself out for when bumping it up higher or too high so I fail. 2) If I fail, how low do i dial it down? I just ask this stuff because I know fatigue plays a big part. 3) should I just skip monday workout if I am doing 1 RMs on Sat? 4) Like I said, for warmup sets/reps, what should I do?

Ive just had a squat pr day yesterday and bench pr day today.. :-D soooo..

Just be safe, don't fly to close to the sun and make sure you video them... Oh and take an extra day off afterwards if you wipe your self out.. Failure on high rpe reps can take a lot out of your peripheral nervous system.

Obv that note.. Pr vids..

Congrats bro, keep slamming those weights.

[MyEgoProblem]

I did that and calculated what I think my 1 RMs should be. I saw suffolkpunch say that 3X5 is a 8RM, so I am going based off that.

I do have a question though.. How do I build up to my 1RM? Like I have it calculated.. I'm going for (150 1.11 X BW) on bench and 185 (1.3 X BW) for Squat (I still have high BF above 20%), but I don't know a few things related to that. 1) If I crush my goal and can go for more, how much do I add? Obviously, I want an optimal amount so that I don't go too low to wear myself out for when bumping it up higher or too high so I fail. 2) If I fail, how low do i dial it down? I just ask this stuff because I know fatigue plays a big part. 3) should I just skip monday workout if I am doing 1 RMs on Sat? 4) Like I said, for warmup sets/reps, what should I do?

Id probably work up to your current working weights for your sets (numbers you know you have clean) in maybe 3s then make small steps and take singles.. Until you feel you are done for the day (suggest stay away from an actual failure either form breakdown or pinning your self)

I did :
** Cg Bench (pause) **
- 20.0 kgs x 5 reps (x3)
- 40.0 kgs x 3 reps
- 60.0 kgs x 3 reps
- 70.0 kgs x 2 reps
- 80.0 kgs x 1 rep
- 90.0 kgs x 1 rep < working weigh for sets
- 95.0 kgs x 1 rep
- 97.5 kgs x 1 rep
- 100.0 kgs x 1 rep
- 102.5 kgs x 1 rep [pr]

Basically, get properly Warmed but BUT dont fatigue your self to much before you try your singles .. Its a personal thing really.

Smallest increases possible imo (2.5kgs for me in the uk) its a great feeling to hit a pr and KNOW you got more in the tank for next time!

Just stay safe bro! Any bad feelings,,just kill the set. Not worth am injury for a gym pr!
Trust me.

[QuickReflection]

Id probably work up to your current working weights for your sets (numbers you know you have clean) in maybe 3s then make small steps and take singles.. Until you feel you are done for the day (suggest stay away from an actual failure either form breakdown or pinning your self)

I did :
** Cg Bench (pause) **
- 20.0 kgs x 5 reps (x3)
- 40.0 kgs x 3 reps
- 60.0 kgs x 3 reps
- 70.0 kgs x 2 reps
- 80.0 kgs x 1 rep
- 90.0 kgs x 1 rep < working weigh for sets
- 95.0 kgs x 1 rep
- 97.5 kgs x 1 rep
- 100.0 kgs x 1 rep
- 102.5 kgs x 1 rep [pr]

Basically, get properly Warmed but BUT dont fatigue your self to much before you try your singles .. Its a personal thing really.

Smallest increases possible imo (2.5kgs for me in the uk) its a great feeling to hit a pr and KNOW you got more in the tank for next time!

Just stay safe bro! Any bad feelings,,just kill the set. Not worth am injury for a gym pr!
Trust me.

Thanks bro, I think I can use this.

[jozeee7]

"For the exercises in the 5 rep range add 1 rep per set during the weeks you aren’t increasing weight. For exercises in the 8-15 range add 2 reps per set during weeks you aren’t increasing weight."

What exactly does this mean since in the novice routine, we're increasing weight evey week?

[QuickReflection]

"For the exercises in the 5 rep range add 1 rep per set during the weeks you aren’t increasing weight. For exercises in the 8-15 range add 2 reps per set during weeks you aren’t increasing weight."

What exactly does this mean since in the novice routine, we're increasing weight evey week?

It only applies for lifts that you do not have the accessability to change the amount of weight every week.. So take Lat Pulldown for example.. This is done on a cable machine. Many cable machines do not go up in weight by 5 lbs. This means that instead of increasing the weight 5 lbs, you are increasing the amount of reps.


As an aside (Ego may be interested), I was able to crush my goals for 1 RM lifts. Sadly my battery in my camera died so I don't have video, but you can read about it here.

[jozeee7]

It only applies for lifts that you do not have the accessability to change the amount of weight every week.. So take Lat Pulldown for example.. This is done on a cable machine. Many cable machines do not go up in weight by 5 lbs. This means that instead of increasing the weight 5 lbs, you are increasing the amount of reps.

Oh okay thanks. For the lat pulldown machine I just get a 5lb plate and stick in there

[bob2589]

Congrats buddy, keep crushing it.

I'm coming back from injury so still working back up to my previous PR. Going lighter has however made me realise I was butchering the face pull! Now that i'm pulling less weight and focusing on that external rotation I can see what an awesome exercise this is for shoulder health.

[QuickReflection]

Congrats buddy, keep crushing it.

I'm coming back from injury so still working back up to my previous PR. Going lighter has however made me realise I was butchering the face pull! Now that i'm pulling less weight and focusing on that external rotation I can see what an awesome exercise this is for shoulder health.

Thanks, man! I have to say, it was prolly all those jump squats I was doing a couple years ago; the nuclei must have remained there for me to make the gains I am getting. Its funny about the face pulls, cuz the last time I did them, I was working on the same exact thing and realized it was more difficult.

[hereforadvice]

Just wanting to clarify the face-pull routine in the Novice Program.

Similarly to the Reverse Flies, do I only increase the weight by 5lbs every month? Or is it like the other upper-workouts where it increases every week?

If every month - is there a limit to not exceed 15lbs (like with the reverse flies)?

[bob2589]

Same as reverse flies but with both moves there will be a ceiling you dont really want to go above.

Both exercises should be performed with perfect form and not too much weight to ensure that you properly retracting the scapula.

Davis said something along the lines of not to go above 15lbs for a novice I believe with reverse flies.

Personally I so facepulls and go higher with the reps up to 15 but that just seems to work for me.

Whatever works best for you but dont worry too much about weight progression on this move, its for shoulder prehab and to balance the pull and ensure you dont run into postural problems (rolled shoulders) from heavy pressing.

[midnightisolde]

Back on the Novice now properly after holidays in August, and only getting back in the gym since the 5th September. Had a bit of difficulty getting back into the swing of things, but now on week two of my second block of training.

I worked up to 30kgx5 bench press; 42.5kg squat; 37.5kg front squat; 22.5kg press; 50kg RDL; 30kgx8 pendlay row; 32kg lat pulldown etc. in my first two months of training. Started back with -15% of these numbers thereabouts. I'm also slightly lighter than before as I was 61kg, now averaging 60.8kg.
This week, I've done:
Workout B
- Press 20kgx5
- Front squat 32.5kgx5
- RDL 45kgx8
- Pulldown 27kgx10
- Cable curl 11kgx11
Workout A
- Squat 37.5kgx5
- Bench press 27.5kgx5
- Row 27.5kgx8
- Facepull 16kgx14
- Cable triceps extension 10kgx10

[jozeee7]

Just to make sure, the chest supported row thing is a legit good substitute to pendlay rows? Like will I be missing out using Chest supported row instead of the Pendlay Row?

[MyEgoProblem]

Just to make sure, the chest supported row thing is a legit good substitute to pendlay rows? Like will I be missing out using Chest supported row instead of the Pendlay Row?

Its legit. Wide grip, elbowd about 46'.

Pendlays are exolosive with little eccentric, the machine row has more controlled movement with a stretch and eccentric..

Swings and round abouts.

[InfraRen]

Quick backstory before my question: Have been a lifter for over a decade, but more off/on the last few years than before. I've been going strong for about 6 months now, and won't be turning back. When I got back in, I did jump into some of the BB.com types of routines (Steve Cook Moderhn Physique at first, then Kris Gethin's 12 Week Muscle Building Trainer right now) because it was easy to follow day by day, even as a phone app. I am now understanding I should be looking elsewhere and have been unsure where to start to find a less glitzy and more productive routine . Enter this thread!

After reading through this thread, I'm thinking I should probably go for the Intermediate Upper/Lower routine. I'd like to get back to the basics of muscle building, and this seems like the one for me. My job/family life makes it that I'm going to need to be a M-F guy, so the split that way seems to be the best.

Agree?

[kitkat12012]

It only applies for lifts that you do not have the accessability to change the amount of weight every week.. So take Lat Pulldown for example.. This is done on a cable machine. Many cable machines do not go up in weight by 5 lbs. This means that instead of increasing the weight 5 lbs, you are increasing the amount of reps.


As an aside (Ego may be interested), I was able to crush my goals for 1 RM lifts. Sadly my battery in my camera died so I don't have video, but you can read about it here.

Interesting... I work out at home and I have access to micro weights. I can increase barbell weights by .5 lbs and dumbbells for 2.5 lbs (per hand). I'm currently doing the intermediate routine where it was recommended to increase the weights only every 2 weeks. Does this mean that I can also just increase the weights every week but for half the recommended weights? For example 2.5lbs increases for upper body every week, instead of 5 lbs every other week?

I'm still figuring out my starting weights since there are a couple new moves here that I don't usually do. But next week maybe I'll start doing the regular schedule and progression.

[QuickReflection]

Interesting... I work out at home and I have access to micro weights. I can increase barbell weights by .5 lbs and dumbbells for 2.5 lbs (per hand). I'm currently doing the intermediate routine where it was recommended to increase the weights only every 2 weeks. Does this mean that I can also just increase the weights every week but for half the recommended weights? For example 2.5lbs increases for upper body every week, instead of 5 lbs every other week?

I'm still figuring out my starting weights since there are a couple new moves here that I don't usually do. But next week maybe I'll start doing the regular schedule and progression.

I know pretty much nothing about the intermediate program, so someone else is going to have to help you out with that.