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    "Fierce 5" Comprehensive Program List

    I began designing the "Fierce 5" series because I wasn't completely satisfied with the majority of programs that are so popular. In my opinion they all had a flaw or two (slow progression, high volume, low enough volume people lose interest and nearly all of them lack what I’d consider proper balance), albeit small inadequacies in some cases. I just wanted programs I could advise people to run without needing to make any modifications.


    Click the Links below to find the program appropriate for you.





    Please read the FAQ before asking questions.
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    The Novice Full Body Program

    Workout A
    Squat 3x5
    Bench 3x5
    Pendlay Rows 3x8
    Face Pulls 3x10
    Calf raises 2x15/Tricep pressdowns 2x10 Superset

    Workout B
    Front Squat 3x5
    Overhead Press 3x5
    Romanian Deadlift 3x8
    Lat Pulldowns 3x8 (any grip)
    Ab work 2x15/Curls 2x10 Superset (I don’t care what ab work you do)

    You will be working out 3 nonconsecutive days a week and alternating between workouts A & B. Ex: Mon-A, Tues-Rest, Wed-B, Thur-Rest, Fri-A, Sat-Rest, Sun-Rest, Mon-B…etc. Each week you’ll add 5 lbs to all of your upper body lifts* and 10lbs to all of your lower body lifts.

    *Reverse flies will increase 5lbs per month, leg curls (if subbed) will increase 5lbs per week and ab work increases in reps (try adding a few reps each week.) If you are unable to increase weight in these increments due to equipment limitations then, for that exercise only, increase weight every other week. For the exercises in the 5 rep range add 1 rep per set during the weeks you aren’t increasing weight. For exercises in the 8-15 range add 2 reps per set during weeks you aren’t increasing weight.

    This is a question I'm repeatedly asked so here is a progression example:
    Monday-Squat-200, Bench-150
    Wednesday-Romanian Deadlift-200, OHP-100
    Friday-Squat-200, Bench-150
    Weekend of rest
    Monday-Romanian Deadlift-210, OHP-105
    Wednesday-Squat-210, Bench-155
    Friday-Romanian Deadlift-210, OHP-105

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    The Dumbell Full Body Program

    Workout A
    Split Squat 3x8 (each leg)
    Bench 3x8 (If you don’t have a bench do floor press)
    DB Rows 3x8 (One arm on bench, back parallel to floor)
    Reverse Flies 3x10
    Calf raises 2x15/French Press 2x10 Superset

    Workout B
    Walking Lunge 3x8 (each leg)
    Overhead Press 3x8
    Romanian Deadlift or Straight Leg Deadlift 3x8 (Use single leg version when you max out your weight)
    Lat Pulldowns or Pull/Chin ups (Once you reach 3x8 begin adding weight)
    Ab work 2x15/Curls 2x10 Superset (I don’t care what ab work you do)

    For this routine you’ll increase weight as you’re able to, though it should be roughly 5lbs added to each DB every other week for upper body lifts and 5lbs added to each DB weekly for lower body lifts. Keep in mind that without adequate equipment this program can only take you so far. You’ll eventually have to join a gym or get proper home equipment (barbell, power rack, adjustable bench, Olympic weights) to continue seeing results.


    For those of you having trouble with lat pulldowns or chin-ups, you HAVE to be creative. No program is complete without a downward pull much like these exercises. Here are a few ideas to get those creative juices flowing.

    1. Get a doorway pullup bar. They are relatively cheap and work well. If you can’t do a full pullup then use a chair or band to assist the movement until you’re able to do them. If you can’t afford a pullup bar then find something else to do them on like a low tree limb.

    2. Get some bands and follow the instruction seen in this video. Pro tip- buy more band poundage than you think you need.



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    The Intermediate Upper/Lower

    Upper A
    Bench 3x5
    Incline Bench 3x8
    Lat Pulldowns 3x8 (any grip)
    Bent Over Rows 3x8
    Curls 3x10/Reverse Flies 3x12 Superset

    Lower A
    Squats 3x5
    Weighted Back Extensions 3x8
    Leg Press 3x10
    Leg Curls 3x10
    Ab work 3x15/Calf raises 3x12 Superset

    Upper B
    OHP 3x5
    Flies 3x10
    Pullups 3x8
    Pendlay Rows 3x8
    Face Pulls 3x12/Tricep pressdowns 3x10 Superset

    Lower B
    Front Squat 3x5
    Romanian Deadlift 3x8
    Leg Extensions 3x10
    Leg Curls 3x10
    Ab work 3x15/Calf Raises 3x12 Superset

    You will be working out 2 consecutive days followed by a rest day and then 2 more consecutive days. Ex: Mon-Upper A, Tues-Lower A, Wed-Rest, Thur-Upper B, Fri-Lower B, Sat-Rest, Sun-Rest, Mon-Upper A…etc.

    You’ll add 5 lbs to all of your upper body lifts* and 10lbs to all of your lower body lifts every 2 weeks. After 1 week increase the reps by 1 on every set. Ex: Instead of doing bench 3x5 you'll do 3x6. At the end of that week weight increases and the reps will drop back down to 3x5.

    *The weight increases are halved between DB exercises. Use your best judgment on weight increases for isolation exercises. The progression may be too fast.


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    Intermediate/Advanced 5 Day Lower/Upper LPP

    Lower A
    Squats 3x5-6
    Weighted Back Extensions 3x8-10
    Leg Press 3x8-10
    Leg Curls 3x10-12
    Ab work 3x15-18/Calf raises 3x12-15 Superset

    Upper A
    Incline Bench 3x5-6
    Decline DB Bench 3x8-10
    Lat Pulldowns 3x8-10 (any grip)
    Bent Over Rows 3x8-10
    Curls 3x8-10/Face Pulls 3x10-12 Superset

    Legs
    *Squat 3x5-6
    *DL 3x5-6
    Good Morning 3x8-10
    Leg Extensions/Leg curls (Superset 3x10-12)
    Calf work 3x12-15/Optional Shrugs 3x8-10 (Superset)

    Push
    *Bench(Horizontal Press) 3x5-6
    *OHP(Upward Press) 3x5-6
    Dips or fly 3x8-10
    Overhead Extensions(long head iso)-3x8-10/Ab work-3x12-15 (Superset)
    Lateral Raises 3x10-12

    Pull
    *Pendlay Rows(Horizontal Pull) 3x5-6
    Yates Rows(Upward Pull) 3x5-6
    Lat Pulldowns(Downward Pull) 3x8-10 (any grip)
    Reverse Flies/Overhead face pulls (Superset 3x10-12) (For facepulls think 60 degree incline for the angle)
    Curls 3x8-10


    You will be working out 2 consecutive days followed by a rest day and then 3 more consecutive days.

    Mon-Lower A
    Tue-Upper A
    Wed-Rest
    Thu-Legs (w/ DL)
    Fri-Push
    Sat-Pull
    Sun-Rest
    Repeat

    You’ll add 5 lbs to all of your upper body lifts* and 10lbs to all of your lower body lifts every 2 weeks. After 1 week increase the reps from the lower rep range to the higher rep range.

    *The weight increases are halved between DB exercises. Use your best judgment on weight increases for isolation exercises. The progression may be too fast.

    Optional extra set-There is an * next to exercises that you can do an extra heavy single, double or triple set each day. Pick one exercise per day. These aren’t max attempts. It is just a fun way to jump out of your normal set/rep scheme.

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    Novice Routine Success Stories

    Munichveteran ran a slightly modified version of this program (with my approval) due to a spinal injury. He cut for just under 7 months and here are his results.








    LSUT10 ran this program when he was coming back from a several year layoff and bulked for 3 months.

    week 1 working weights - week 13 working weights
    Squats 175-295
    Bench 165-225
    Pen Row 80-160
    Front Squat 135-265
    RDL 135-205
    Lat Pulldown 90-3x5 chin ups




    ProvaP 14 weeks using Fierce 5.

    Squat 100 --> 265 lbs
    Deadlift 100 --> 265lbs
    Incline 65 --> 145 lbs
    Pulls-up only body weight+body weight + 45 lbs




    Dante828 ran this from April to November in 2015 and gained 25lbs in that time frame

    Squat 100lbs >310lbs
    Bench 70lbs> >205lbs
    Pendlay Rows 60lbs >160lbs
    Reverse Flies 10lbs >30lbs
    Calve Raises 90lbs >220lbs
    Tricep Pressdown 60lbs >130lbs



    Front Squat 85lbs >240lbs
    Incline Bench 75lbs >190lbs
    Romanian Deadlift 80lbs >240lbs
    Lat Pulldowns 75lbs >170lbs
    Curls 30lbs >95lbs




    I debated not putting my own results into this, but I have enough people asking about coming back from a layoff so I thought I'd include it with a few disclaimers. These photos are 11 weeks apart and based around a comeback to lifting after about an 18 month layoff in which I got fat and gross due to injuries and multiple surgeries. I ran the novice version for like 7-8 weeks and then 3-4 weeks of the upper/lower. I switched to the upper/lower because when you're squatting 300+ for reps and deadlifting 400+ for reps the full body version is nearly impossible to make it through. It was still working, but I couldn't finish the workouts.

    Additional disclaimers- Comebacks are greatly related to previous lifts IMO. You should expect to come close to, meet or barely exceed your previous PRs in 12 weeks in most cases IF you have the knowledge and self awareness to know when to modify progression, handle deloads and resets. It has a lot to do with myonuclei and other sciency crap related to muscle memory. If you were benching mid 400s like I was then you should expect to look like you bench mid 400s in this time frame to a reasonable degree. I'm still fat as sh*t in the after photos and will lose size and strength when cutting to a more sensible bodyfat %.

    I did have to slightly modify the program because my injuries limited me on what I could and could not do as well as what my physical therapist and doctor advised. I lost a few lbs over this time period, but basically just recomped which is normal for a comeback. I've done this half a dozen times for various reasons and this has always been my experience, though admittedly as my knowledge and experience increased my results have become more drastic. I literally do what I preach in terms of programming and supplements. This is what you can expect with exceptional previous PRs, highly refined knowledge of your own body and no drugs.

    I added over 200lbs to my squats and 250ish to my deadlift, most of which happened in the first 8 weeks; marginal cost and marginal benefit if you're an economics guy. At the end of this I deadlifted 556, which is notable for a few reasons. It's my best deadlift ever by over 100lbs and I hadn't deadlifted in 4-5 years. This goes to show that you DO NOT have to deadlift to increase your deadlift. Carryover from your other lifts is massive. I only deadlifted for 5 weeks or less, if I remember correctly, during this comeback. This carryover concept applies to all lifts.







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    Substitutions, Warmups and Stretching

    Acceptable Substitutions/Interchangeable Exercises
    Reverse Flies-Face pulls
    Any tricep isolation exercise is fine. Close grip bench doesn't count.
    Lat Pulldowns-Any form of pull/chin up. You’ll need a dip belt to add weight. (You need a pull from above your head)
    Incline Bench-Overhead Press
    Pendlay Rows-Any horizontal pull. T bar is a good example. Your arms need to be directly out in front of you for it to be considered a horizontal pull. BORs don't count.
    Bench-Decline bench, dips (leaning forward) You’ll need a dip belt to add weight
    RDL-Good Morning, Reverse Hyper, Glute Ham Raises, SLDL
    Front Squat-Hack Squats, Leg press or Step ups
    BORs-Yates, Kroc Rows

    Warmups- Before your main compound lifts (Squat, Bench, Rows, Front Squat, Incline, Romanian Deadlift, Lat Pulldowns...etc) you should do at least one warmup set. As months roll by you’ll begin adding more weight to the bar and you’ll need to increase the number of warm up sets for some exercises. Ex: For a 135lb squat you might do 1 warm up set of 95lbs, but for a 315lb squat you might warm up with 135, 225 and 275. Warmups are used to get your muscles ready to work; they should not fatigue you. This means if your work set is 50lbs, your warmup set should be down around 25 or 30lbs.

    Stretching routines: These aren’t a must, but will assist you in staying healthy and injury free. They don’t take very long at all and are dynamite when it comes to improving and maintaining your mobility. I do them directly before each workout.




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    FAQ

    Who should use this program? It was designed for those people who don’t have a great deal of recent, well structured training behind them. It is for anyone with less than 6 months of current, structured and dedicated training. Even if you’ve been working out for a year or two, if you haven’t been intense, consistent, running a decent program and eating correctly you may still make progress on this routine.

    How long can I run this program? You run this program until you legitimately stall * on at least 2 of your major lifts while bulking (Bench, Rows, Squat, DL). 4-6 months is a good average for someone bulking. I don’t advise moving onto an intermediate program if you’ve been cutting the whole time on this program.

    *Legitimate stall- After deloading (taking 4-7 days completely off), dropping 15% (reset) and working back up you cannot break your plateau.

    What do I do if I fail on my sets? If you fail a lift two days in a row then drop the weight 15% for the lift you are failing (reset.) This is a good time to work on form since the weight is a bit lighter again. Form can make or break your lift. You will still be growing with lighter weight. If you don't reduce weight you will likely get slower results.

    I don't want to reset my weights and lose my progress, can't I just add volume or slow down progression or something?
    Originally Posted by MyEgoProblem;
    The point of the reset at this early novice stage is to decay accumulated fatigue, let your body have a little reprieve from working at so high of an intensity and let you perfect your form with cleaner more explosive reps than last time you lifted that weight. Then power thru with your better technique and less fatigue and hit pr's again and again.
    You aren't losing progress by resetting. It's a good thing and you are supposed to fail, then rest, for the program to work. Grinding through a bunch of sh*tty reps while trying to avoid resetting is destroying your results and form long term. It's one of the most common mistakes I see people making. When you fail a weight twice DO A FUKKING RESET!

    I’m a man/woman and I plan on cutting/bulking. Does that change whether or not I should run this program? For bulking males this program is perfect. Progression(weight increases) needs to be modified for cutting males and bulking females. I would advise running the progression until you stall on bench, squat or RDL. At this point cut the progression in half, meaning increase weight half as much as the program calls for. I advise cutting females and men wanting to lose 30 or more lbs to run All Pros routine.

    What about form? At this point you just want to focus on the basics. There is too much information about form to try and absorb all of it at once. The basics of each exercise will keep you from being injured since you won't be lifting huge amounts of weight. As you progress to lifting more and more weight you should devote more and more time to learning the form. A few basics are not flaring elbows during bench and keeping a straight back during squats and DL.
    Not familiar with some of these exercises? Look here first http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...8920551&page=1
    Look here for others you aren’t familiar with http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Directory.html

    Pendlay rows are covered here


    I'm having a hard time with pendlays. What am I doing wrong and can I sub it out? Just put in the time to learn the damn lift. You're flexible enough, but you'll need to video yourself and check your form a few times. Keep your back straight like seen in the below photos. At the top of the lift keep your elbows above the bar like seen in the 3rd photo. Notice how my shins are straight up and down. You RDL back into the position and then grab the bar. Notice how far back my hips are. Keep in mind that until you get up to 135lbs the bar will be closer to the ground and require more hip flexibility. Put some mats, blocks, other weights or something under the bar to raise it up to a normal height if needed. If you're gonna sub it then at least notice how in the first photo the arms are perpendicular to the chest. Any sub has to be the same.


    What is a superset? A superset is two exercises combined into one workout. These are done back to back. For the abs and curls superset, you would do one set of abs and then immediately do a set of curls. When you finish the curl set then you would immediately start your second set of abs. This saves time and produces a pump.

    How long do I wait between sets? Generally I would advise waiting 2-3 minutes between heavy compound sets (Squat, Bench, Row, RDL, Incline, Lat Pulldown.) Isolation workouts should be somewhere between 30-60 seconds (curls, tricep pressdowns, reverse flies.) The supersets should be done back to back.

    How much weight should I use? I highly advise to start out lighter than you think you can handle since the progression is very fast. I can’t stress this enough! This program works best with lighter starting weights. I suggest all lifters, regardless of experience, start with 85% of what they think they can lift. You should not be struggling for 4-6 weeks or so.

    If this is your very first time working out on any program then I advise you start with 50% of what you think you can handle. On every workout increase the weight by 10-15% instead of the 5-10lbs listed in the original program. There are 3 A and 3 B workouts in every two weeks. Each will be increased by 10-15% each workout so you should be using 85% of what you feel you're capable of by the start of week 3. Remember this is a guess since you're new. Adjust the weights as needed to get to 85% by week 3. Then you will follow normal progression listed in the program. This works great for total beginners because it allows you to get the basics of the exercises down with a safe weight and it also prevent major soreness.


    Where did the other versions of the program go? I heard you can only get bigger from high reps sets. I removed the higher rep versions because increasing weight on the high rep versions was too difficult. People stalled much sooner and this probably meant less growth. A lack of progressive resistance (ability to add weight) means a lack of growth. Differences in high reps and low reps are WAY over emphasized especially for beginners. Don’t over think tiny details. See the photo below.


    What should I be eating? This depends on your goals. If you are looking to gain muscle you need to be bulking. If you are looking to lose fat, you’ll need to cut. How to do either correctly is covered in excellent detail here https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...hp?t=173439001

    The myfitnesspal app is an excellent resource for tracking food.

    What supplements should I use? Many beginners think that supplements are the “key” to success. This isn’t the case. Supplements help to fill gaps in your diet. If you are unable to meet the minimum requirements for your macros (see the nutrition link above) or micros, then supplements can be beneficial to you, but understand your diet BEFORE jumping into supplements. I advise a multivitamin (helps to fill in micros) to all trainees. Creatine is also something to consider. It is cheap and can help you push through hard sets. The last thing I recommend is protein powder. You don’t need it IF you reach your protein macro through your normal diet. All of these supplements can be acquired through bb.com’s store at a pretty good price. This isn’t a plug; I get all my stuff from bb.com because they have good prices and fast shipping.

    Can I run this program 4 days per week? No! One of the most basic rules (IMO) of bodybuilding is not to work out the same muscles 2 days in a row. Only a few people deviate from this rule successfully and they are generally taking illegal substances.

    Why can’t I substitute these exercises for others? *You aren’t a special snowflake needing handpicked exercises for your specific circumstances at this point in your lifting career. You need to grow everywhere and this program is designed to do exactly that. This program is meticulously planned to balance your muscle development. If you started changing out these specifically chosen exercises for others it could lead to muscle imbalances. Imbalances lead to postural issues and in many cases injury.

    *There is a list of acceptable substitutions in the original post.

    Why can’t I add in other exercises? If you knew how to correctly do this then you'd have written your own routine. 99% of the time when I'm asked if something is ok, it's a no from me. It normally messes something else up.

    My grip is slipping on RDL/DL. What do I do? Using a mixed grip will fix this issue most of the time. Add chalk or liquid chalk if needed. If you can't hold the bar with mixed grip and chalk then buy lifting STRAPS.

    In what order should I do these exercises? You should do them in the order they are written unless gym traffic dictates otherwise. The most taxing exercise is listed first since it will require the most energy to complete.

    What about deloading? If you are feeling sluggish and not as strong as you normally are it may be time for a deload. Every 6-8 weeks is a good guess, but everyone is different. This can be done by skipping one workout to give you 4-5 days of consecutive rest. This will keep your central nervous system happy and it will help you push more weight in the long run. A deload should be at least 4 days of rest on this program.

    What if I miss a day? Don't skip the workout you missed. Ex: You missed workout B on Friday. You can either do workout B Saturday and jump back into your normal routine Monday or you can start with workout B on Monday. If you chose to take the weekend off and pick things back up Mon
    Last edited by davisj3537; 03-23-2017 at 06:45 AM.
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    Intermediate/Advanced FAQ


    Who should use this program? This program is for anyone who has exhausted beginner gains and is unable to add weight to the bar weekly. If you are able to add weight to the bar weekly I advise you run the novice version as it will most likely give you faster results. As you progress as a lifter your ability to increase weight will get slower and slower. You should run the program with the fastest progression you can keep up with. This leads to the fastest results.

    How long can I run the intermediate program? Probably forever quite honestly. VERY few lifters ever surpass this stage, when you do, you won't be using my programs or reading this question.

    *Legitimate stall- After deloading, dropping 10% and working back up you cannot break your plateau.

    What do I do if I fail on my sets? If you fail a lift two days in a row then drop the weight 10% for the lift you are failing. This is a good time to work on form since the weight is a bit lighter again. Form can make or break your lift. This program won't work if you don't drop weight when you fail an exercise. This varying intensity is a crucial aspect of any good program.

    What about form? You’re no longer a beginner so you need to put in the time to really nail down your form to get the most out of your lifting. As you progress to lifting more and more weight you should devote more and more time to learning the form.

    The Bench Form Thread

    The Squat Form Thread


    ^Watch this entire series!

    I'm doing the Upper/Lower routine, but I really want to do DL. What should I do? First you want to remove front squat and RDL from Lower B. Sub in DL 3x5 and lunges 3x8. Now put a rest day on both sides of your Lower B. Like this-

    Monday-Upper A
    Tuesday-Lower A
    Wednesday-Rest
    Thursday-Upper B
    Friday-Rest
    Saturday-Lower B (with DL and lunges)
    Sunday-Rest
    Repeat



    Posture and Imbalances
    At this point in your lifting career you will almost certainly have some muscular imbalances. While these routines are balanced and over time might correct these imbalances, I highly recommend you invest a little more in yourself. Go see a high level physical therapist for one session. Not just some random physical therapist; find someone really good. Tell them why you are there and in less than 5 minutes they’ll be able to pick apart weak areas in your muscle development or mobility immediately. Many of these imbalances begin to cause postural issues which can often lead to injuries. They can give you exercise ideas and help you understand how/why you’ve developed this imbalance and how to fix it. Now come back and add in one or two of those exercises into your routine. This is something I recommend you do once a year. Even elite physical therapists are commonly under $100 per session without insurance, sometimes much lower. I strongly suggest you don't overlook this advice.

    A PT will be able to identify your issues and implement specific exercises to retrain your body (physically and neurologically) and fix the imbalances you have. I would advise seeking out the best physical therapist in your area, hopefully someone that specializes in posture. Below are a few links that will allow you to search for what I believe to be quality therapists. A good doctor will write you a referral for physical therapy so that insurance may help with the cost. If you're unable to find a provider using the below links your doctor will know one.

    http://www.posturalrestoration.com/find-provider

    http://www.clinicalathlete.com/ (Physical therapists are in red on the map)

    It is worth mentioning that some doctors will send you home with a list of exercises to do instead of giving you a referral. I don't feel this is an effective treatment for anyone that actually lifts.

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    Last edited by davisj3537; 02-22-2017 at 12:58 AM.
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    I'm thinking about giving your Upper Lower version a shot. Can I replace decline dumbbell press with weighted dips and hyperextensions with good mornings?
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    Originally Posted by superpumphenry View Post
    I'm thinking about giving your Upper Lower version a shot. Can I replace decline dumbbell press with weighted dips and hyperextensions with good mornings?
    Sure can
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    nice looking routines davis.
    im gonna go ahead and say I should start with the full body novice routine?
    im set on supplements already (proteins, multis, fish oil, creatine, pre(don't always use), post(don't always use either)) and hit the grocery store today so I should be good on food to start and see how my weight goes.
    ill be starting tomorrow I think since im right by the gym when I go to get my haircut. believe ill also run a log to to track progress
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    I'm gonna make sure this advice gets on the front page:

    If you start on the novice routine, START A LOG in the "workout journals" section. One of the biggest bonuses to fierce 5 is the community on this forum which can provide nutrition advice, form checks and motivation free of charge
    log:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=165742981

    nothing but the basics
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    Originally Posted by LittlestGiant View Post
    nice looking routines davis.
    im gonna go ahead and say I should start with the full body novice routine?
    im set on supplements already (proteins, multis, fish oil, creatine, pre(don't always use), post(don't always use either)) and hit the grocery store today so I should be good on food to start and see how my weight goes.
    ill be starting tomorrow I think since im right by the gym when I go to get my haircut. believe ill also run a log to to track progress
    Generally the full body is a good starting point unless you already have some substantial lifts and can't keep up with the weight increases.
    Originally Posted by connorpat1995 View Post
    I'm gonna make sure this advice gets on the front page:

    If you start on the novice routine, START A LOG in the "workout journals" section. One of the biggest bonuses to fierce 5 is the community on this forum which can provide nutrition advice, form checks and motivation free of charge
    There is quite a following. Logging, when I'm healthy, really keeps me in check so I don't miss workouts.
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    Starting an Upper/Lower Log today
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    Originally Posted by superpumphenry View Post
    Starting an Upper/Lower Log today
    I'll follow ya
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    Never been a fan of fb except ss...weird i know. But have been out the gym a few months and am ready to get back on the grind. I was around when you first wrote the novice program, looks like you made a few changes. I'm not sure what my current lifts are, been on and off 4-5 years. Main goal is aesthetics so I'm thinking about pursuing with the upper lower. I've made the best gains on those splits. I may throw in ohp, incline bench and flyes wont be enough for my undeveloped shoulders. May also add this into the workouts..just let me know what you'd want the title to be.
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    Originally Posted by drummaboyyyy View Post
    Never been a fan of fb except ss...weird i know. But have been out the gym a few months and am ready to get back on the grind. I was around when you first wrote the novice program, looks like you made a few changes. I'm not sure what my current lifts are, been on and off 4-5 years. Main goal is aesthetics so I'm thinking about pursuing with the upper lower. I've made the best gains on those splits. I may throw in ohp, incline bench and flyes wont be enough for my undeveloped shoulders. May also add this into the workouts..just let me know what you'd want the title to be.
    Your avi says intermediate for sure so Upper/Lower seems like a good choice to me.

    I'd strongly suggest against adding another shoulder exercise. If you MUST add something just add a lateral raise. Putting in another press just phucks up the balance. You'd need two more pulls to balance it back out. That'd be 9 exercises instead of 6...kind of overboard IMO.

    Plus look at my avi. With a few very small exceptions for I've never done OHP or ANY shoulder isolation exercises (with the exception of reverse flies.) I'm not saying they're the best shoulders around, but they aren't lagging. Shoulders are small, they don't need a lot of work despite what errybody says.

    If you log it I'll follow it. Call it anything you like. Send me a link after a few days if I don't find it on my own.
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    Good stuff.
    Thanks for combining everything.

    Regarding the PT stuff. Would you recommend a novice to see one?
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    Originally Posted by davisj3537 View Post
    Your avi says intermediate for sure so Upper/Lower seems like a good choice to me.

    I'd strongly suggest against adding another shoulder exercise. If you MUST add something just add a lateral raise. Putting in another press just phucks up the balance. You'd need two more pulls to balance it back out. That'd be 9 exercises instead of 6...kind of overboard IMO.

    Plus look at my avi. With a few very small exceptions for I've never done OHP or ANY shoulder isolation exercises (with the exception of reverse flies.) I'm not saying they're the best shoulders around, but they aren't lagging. Shoulders are small, they don't need a lot of work despite what errybody says.

    If you log it I'll follow it. Call it anything you like. Send me a link after a few days if I don't find it on my own.
    That was me prior to lifting consistently for about a year..been a few months and I've lost size. My problem with fullbody is that I can't stay motivated very long on it..kind of bores me and have trouble sticking to it. Had a bad case of f*ckarounditis lol. I got to my previous size from running a upper lower split.

    Just noticed the amount of pressing compared to pulling. If I run this I'll stick to it for about 2 months before thinking about adding in laterals. You've got some 3d delt action going on there, but I'm just a big fan of ohp. plus it seemed to help with my bad posture.
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    Originally Posted by VmissileX View Post
    Good stuff.
    Thanks for combining everything.

    Regarding the PT stuff. Would you recommend a novice to see one?
    It isn't a bad idea, but generally novices haven't spent enough time running unbalanced programs to need it. If they started from scratch with F5 they should probably be ok until they get to intermediate.
    Originally Posted by drummaboyyyy View Post
    That was me prior to lifting consistently for about a year..been a few months and I've lost size. My problem with fullbody is that I can't stay motivated very long on it..kind of bores me and have trouble sticking to it. Had a bad case of f*ckarounditis lol. I got to my previous size from running a upper lower split.

    Just noticed the amount of pressing compared to pulling. If I run this I'll stick to it for about 2 months before thinking about adding in laterals. You've got some 3d delt action going on there, but I'm just a big fan of ohp. plus it seemed to help with my bad posture.
    Well the thing is if you just don't like FB, then don't do it. I totally understand losing motivation by doing something you don't like. You can swap Incline for OHP if you like. It is an acceptable sub.
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    Originally Posted by davisj3537 View Post
    It isn't a bad idea, but generally novices haven't spent enough time running unbalanced programs to need it. If they started from scratch with F5 they should probably be ok until they get to intermediate.

    Well the thing is if you just don't like FB, then don't do it. I totally understand losing motivation by doing something you don't like. You can swap Incline for OHP if you like. It is an acceptable sub.
    Consistency is key! I'll run the original program for a while and see if I need to throw in another lift for shoulders. Will add this to the workouts here shortly.
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    Originally Posted by drummaboyyyy View Post
    Consistency is key! I'll run the original program for a while and see if I need to throw in another lift for shoulders. Will add this to the workouts here shortly.
    Cool man
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    Good info.

    I wouldn't mind checking with a PT just due to posture (excessive APT).
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    Originally Posted by davisj3537 View Post
    Cool man
    I've got it setup for 12 weeks and have added all the days, but can't figure out how to put in the exercises for each day lol.

    edit : just figured it out. will post link when I've got the time to finish it.
    Last edited by drummaboyyyy; 07-14-2014 at 02:38 PM.
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    Originally Posted by drummaboyyyy View Post
    I've got it setup for 12 weeks and have added all the days, but can't figure out how to put in the exercises for each day lol.

    edit : just figured it out. will post link when I've got the time to finish it.
    Oh you put it on bodyspace?
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    Originally Posted by VmissileX View Post
    Good info.

    I wouldn't mind checking with a PT just due to posture (excessive APT).
    Try to find a really good one. A lot of them are crappy. A good one will know your issues when you walk in the door.
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    Originally Posted by davisj3537 View Post
    Oh you put it on bodyspace?
    Yep. I also just noticed the weight progression. Now I'm not sure if it would be right for me..I think at my current state I can easily add on 5 and 10lbs each week. Suppose I should stick with the novice program until linear progression starts coming to a halt?
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    Originally Posted by drummaboyyyy View Post
    Yep. I also just noticed the weight progression. Now I'm not sure if it would be right for me..I think at my current state I can easily add on 5 and 10lbs each week. Suppose I should stick with the novice program until linear progression starts coming to a halt?
    Generally yes
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    Bumping these awesome routines!

    On a side note Davis, I've seen you talk earlier about people omitting Pendlays, I believe because there is no detailed tutorials out there, the only one I've came across last year when I was really digging form was a short video by glen pendlay that doesn't cover foot stance or some issues like that. It's my main reason for omitting it as I've no solid material to compare to.

    I found Mehdi's explanation as well, but text doesn't really help that much opposed to videos, especially when it's not as detailed as SS for example.
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