KS98's "Push-Pull-Legs" for STRENGTH and HYPERTROPHY

[ParkRanger]

No doubt. However, wouldn't you say that a program which solely focuses on strength caters to the majority of people on here, i.e. those lifting weights just for vanity, muscle acquisition, and perhaps strength sport? I believe that mobility and injury prevention go hand-in-hand with any strength program, which is why I opted to add a warmup to this routine. However, shouldn't a rapid rate of force development be a top priority in any strength-oriented program? For example, performing my warmup sets with ballistic contraction allows me to still utilize maximal force output and recruit high threshold motor units much earlier, even when lifting maximal loads. And don't you think that aerobic conditioning wouldn't really aid someone solely interested in adding weight to their "Big 3"?

Sorry if this post didn't make much sense. I just kinda threw my thoughts onto here.

My only qualm was the qualification of Starting Strength as a regimine for strength and conditioning, in the sense of athletic development. While SS employs several sound principles, it's definitely incomplete when it comes to training athletes for most sports.

However, you are completely right in saying that it is a good routine (as well as other strength-oriented program) for a majority of this websites population, which is why I generally recommend it to beginners.

You're correct in stating RFD is important in any strength routine, but I would argue that SS isn't efficient in this regard, especially since beginners usually lack the ability to produce maximal force under a submaximal load. Don't get me wrong, just the simple act of increasing max strength will increase RFD, but there are better ways to do this for athletes.

And yes, aerobic conditioning can be useful (if done correctly) because it can raise work capacity. But even if it didn't, again I never said anything about aerobic conditioning specifically, but about specific energy system conditoning.

[KS98]

For sure. I'm just looking for some clarification regarding energy specific system training. So I'm aware that aerobic conditioning has a host of benefits, e.g. improved ATP/PCr resynthesis, greater respiratory capacity, higher VO2max, etc. Focus on this facet of athletic training is definitely important.

That being said, don't you think that certain coaches tend to put too much emphasis on this form of conditioning and too little on alactic capacity? It just bewilders me as to why football coaches (specifically at the high school level) promote gassers, suicides, and long hill runs when their players should really be doing more sprints and prowler/sled work. Due to the alactic-aerobic nature of a sport like football, how important would the inclusion of high-intensity lactic conditioning into an athlete's regimen really be - at least in your opinion?

[ParkRanger]

For sure. I'm just looking for some clarification regarding energy specific system training. So I'm aware that aerobic conditioning has a host of benefits, e.g. improved ATP/PCr resynthesis, greater respiratory capacity, higher VO2max, etc. Focus on this facet of athletic training is definitely important.

That being said, don't you think that certain coaches tend to put too much emphasis on this form of conditioning and too little on alactic capacity? It just bewilders me as to why football coaches (specifically at the high school level) promote gassers, suicides, and long hill runs when their players should really be doing more sprints and prowler/sled work. Due to the alactic-aerobic nature of a sport like football, how important would the inclusion of high-intensity lactic conditioning into an athlete's regimen really be - at least in your opinion?

By energy system specific conditioning I mean training the right systems that are used in the given sport.

So yes, you are exactly right. Football is an alactic-aerobic sport, and as such, alactic power/capacity as well as aerobic capacity should be trained. Those old school conditioning drills are not only useless (one could argue "mental toughness," I guess), but any drills like this that put the athlete in a lactic environment are counterproductive to the development of strength, speed, and power.

[conwect]

Good on you for starting out with SL5x5 and sticking with it. The progression in regards to the main lifts, i.e. squat, bench press, deadlift, overhead press, row, should ideally be very similar to how you did it with StrongLifts. When you manage to hit the prescribed sets and reps, add 5 lbs to the bar. However, as you're (hopefully) an intermediate, I feel as if you can give yourself a bit more leniency with this. If you hit 3x5 on squats, but every single set was an absolute grinder, then it would probably be smart to practice a form of autoregulation by keeping the weight stagnant for next session. Next time when you work squats, say you hit the 3x5 once again. It felt much easier this time around, so now you're free to overload the weight for next workout.

The same goes for every other lift. Your main goal should be to hit every all reps. Rushing the progression here isn't necessary; personally, I like to use my other lifts to really focus on inducing adequate time under tension. For exercises with a variable template, e.g. side lateral raises for 3x8-12, your goal should be to eventually hit 3 sets of 12 reps with perfect form. If you get 12, 10, and 9 reps your first session trying a certain weight, don't get discouraged. When this occurs, most guys have a tendency to compromise form in order to get those last few reps during their next workout (not particularly difficult to do with a movement like this). Once again, don't be all that aggressive with progression for lifts that aren't your main compounds.

Do the warmups before every session. If you're feeling tight, add more time or reps to each movement. If you're really loose on a certain day, do the opposite. Good luck.

Ok that makes a lot of sense, thanks for clearing it up

Which is better do u guys think... this, Coolcicada's routine or lyle McDonald's?

[musclehead09]

Nice routine. How about Legs/Push/Pull tho because deadlifts day before squats and leg curls could affect leg days. Same routine but different order of days.

[KS98]

Nice routine. How about Legs/Push/Pull tho because deadlifts day before squats and leg curls could affect leg days. Same routine but different order of days.

Thanks man. And yes that's fine, I included some modifications which you can make in the FAQ section of the OP:

• Q: What are some other ways you can modify the routine's schedule?
  - A: It's really up to you. Preferably, you'd still be hitting every muscle group twice per week. Here are two examples of modifications which you can make: [Legs/Push/Pull/off/Legs/Push/Pull/off] or [Push/Legs/Pull/off/Push/Legs/Pull/off].

It's just that "Push/Pull/Legs" sounds catchier. It doesn't matter how you organize it if you're hitting everything 2x/week.

[musclehead09]

Thanks man. And yes that's fine, I included some modifications which you can make in the FAQ section of the OP:



It's just that "Push/Pull/Legs" sounds catchier. It doesn't matter how you organize it if you're hitting everything 2x/week.

My bad man! Nice. I was thinking of this let me know what you think:

Chest/Back
Legs
Shoulders/Arms
Rest
Repeat

Old school routine here used by many golden era greats just a lot less volume for us naturals of course. I was thinking of this so you could do overhead and close grip bench 2 days after Chest/Back thus ur pressing and hitting back (rear Delts) every other day. Deadlift would be on leg days. Chest/Back would be all upper back/lat work.

I'm a fat powerlifter turning bodybuilder. I want to be shredded and stay strong so I'd keep in the 5 rep range for my major compounds.

[KS98]

My bad man! Nice. I was thinking of this let me know what you think:

Chest/Back
Legs
Shoulders/Arms
Rest
Repeat

Old school routine here used by many golden era greats just a lot less volume for us naturals of course. I was thinking of this so you could do overhead and close grip bench 2 days after Chest/Back thus ur pressing and hitting back (rear Delts) every other day. Deadlift would be on leg days. Chest/Back would be all upper back/lat work.

I'm a fat powerlifter turning bodybuilder. I want to be shredded and stay strong so I'd keep in the 5 rep range for my major compounds.

That looks good! Not really a "p/p/l" per se.. but still a very effective layout, nonetheless. Just make sure your exercise selection is on point and you're golden.

[musclehead09]

That looks good! Not really a "p/p/l" per se.. but still a very effective layout, nonetheless. Just make sure your exercise selection is on point and you're golden.

Awesome dude thanks a lot! Yeah frequency stays high. I've looked at so many bro split training protocols my eyes have fell out almost lol. So many aesthetic non-naturals and naturals do them now a days that they're attractive to the eye.

but the best bodies of all time I think have been built by high frequency training. These guys used massive juice but so do the low frequency Olympias. Frank Zane, Arnold, Franco, Lou Ferrigno, Lee Haney and many more. Even now a days the best Bodybuilders use high frequency (Coleman and Heath).

Finally I've tried bro splits before powerlifting and my bench always tanked lol.

[KS98]

Awesome dude thanks a lot! Yeah frequency stays high. I've looked at so many bro split training protocols my eyes have fell out almost lol. So many aesthetic non-naturals and naturals do them now a days that they're attractive to the eye.

but the best bodies of all time I think have been built by high frequency training. These guys used massive juice but so do the low frequency Olympias. Frank Zane, Arnold, Franco, Lou Ferrigno, Lee Haney and many more. Even now a days the best Bodybuilders use high frequency (Coleman and Heath).

Finally I've tried bro splits before powerlifting and my bench always tanked lol.

Agreed. I don't wanna go too in-depth about the drug aspect of it... but I'm just gonna say that dosages were so much lower back then compared to now.

Those guys just worked out with far greater volume and frequency, actually focused on gaining strength, dieted harder – really just took full advantage of their 'supplementation'.

And yeah, if I don't hit my bench at least twice a week I completely lose all my mental cues. Can you relate?

[musclehead09]

Agreed. I don't wanna go too in-depth about the drug aspect of it... but I'm just gonna say that dosages were so much lower back then compared to now.

Those guys just worked out with far greater volume and frequency, actually focused on gaining strength, dieted harder – really just took full advantage of their 'supplementation'.

And yeah, if I don't hit my bench at least twice a week I completely lose all my mental cues. Can you relate?

Absolutely! I'm a lot weaker than you. You're very strong lol. But when I was really weak (205 bench) I tried a bro split multiple times and my bench went all the way down to 180-195 each time. One week I hit like 165x10. The next week I barely doubled 175 and only did 165x4. It was insane. The worst time was when 195 came crushing down on me after making good progress. I knew it was time to never try it again.

I really think it's cuz I started with WAY too much volume to start out. Like 12-15 sets in one workout. It's okay to work up to that over time and do that twice a week. Many high volume bodybuilding routines will have you hit that sort of volume twice a week but I at least would need to work up to it. But combine the overload of volume with only doing it once a week and I robbed myself of strength. I guarantee if I did that twice a week id have seen the sudden decrease in strength but it would've gone back up from high frequency. I would've adapted which doing it once a week id never adapt. 2-3 weeks went by each time and I got weak. I bet doing it twice a week I would've gotten weaker at first then would've shot back up.

I stopped that to start a full body powerliftinng routine and now do westside. Also note I'm no where near that weak now lol. still weak but that was awhile ago. My sig is sorta old too

[conwect]

Ok that makes a lot of sense, thanks for clearing it up

Which is better do u guys think... this, Coolcicada's routine or lyle McDonald's?

Bump

[conwect]

Ok that makes a lot of sense, thanks for clearing it up

Which is better do u guys think... this, Coolcicada's routine or lyle McDonald's?

...

[WatsonS90]

I'm not doing this routine however I am going to start implementing the warm-up routine before each of my sessions on my ICF 5x5 routine.

I have modified each one as I have an 'A' day and 'B' day. I think I will need to purchase some bands and also some lax balls.

Just wanted to say thanks man

[MalarsPlace]

In for later

[MalarsPlace]

5 star thread. Going to use this.

I am thinking about doing pull/push/legs/rest because I don't want to deadlift/row and then squat next day..is this not a good idea to alter the order this way?

Also, why are shrugs with push day? Won't they be fatigued for deadlifting next day?

[MalarsPlace]

The progression scheme is really up to you. With your main lifts (e.g. bench, military press, rows, squats, deads) the goal should be to add 5 lbs onto the bar you stall for an extended period of time just deload. Again, how much you choose to lower the weights by is up to personal preference. 5-10% is the sweet spot. The progression scheme on this routine is meant to be more aggressive than 5/3/1. Jim Wendler's original 5/3/1 is more of an "advanced" program. Just understand that faster progression = more mass gains.

Is this only if you stall? Or do you lower weights by 5-10% for second session of the week?

[KS98]

5 star thread. Going to use this.

I am thinking about doing pull/push/legs/rest because I don't want to deadlift/row and then squat next day..is this not a good idea to alter the order this way?

Also, why are shrugs with push day? Won't they be fatigued for deadlifting next day?

Good to hear, man. You can alter the order however you'd like. The way you're looking to do it is fine.

Why are the shrugs there? No particular reason besides maintaining a consistent level of volume for each day. I see the traps as a very resilient muscle group. It is very unlikely that a few sets of shrugs will be detrimental on deadlifting strength.

[KS98]

Is this only if you stall? Or do you lower weights by 5-10% for second session of the week?

Before you start the program, you should have your "training maxes" set in stone. This will usually be 5-10% less than an actual 1RM. You should base your working sets off these training maxes. The goal here is to avoid starting out heavy, which will allow you to make consistent progress without stalling out too early.

If and when you stall, do the same thing. Lower weights by 5-10% and begin progressing once again.

[conwect]

Ok that makes a lot of sense, thanks for clearing it up

Which is better do u guys think... this, Coolcicada's routine or lyle McDonald's?

Another bump....

[KS98]

Another bump....

They are all entirely different in their own sense. The best routine will be the one that is most tailored to your individual goals.

[s58]

Another bump....

Do any of you read the first page?

Start with a beginner full body routine then jump onto a ppl. Coolcicadas or KS98's are gonna be the 2 most popular most likely

[EmDon]

Just made a log regarding this routine on my contest prep phase. Love the way this looks, very we'll rounded and can be used in any situation whether bulking/cutting.

Appreciate you sharing your knowledge brother!

Edit: would adding weight to pull-ups on "pull" day be okay as well?

[KS98]

Just made a log regarding this routine on my contest prep phase. Love the way this looks, very we'll rounded and can be used in any situation whether bulking/cutting.

Appreciate you sharing your knowledge brother!

Edit: would adding weight to pull-ups on "pull" day be okay as well?

That's great to hear! Yes, adding weight would actually be ideal.

Hope your prep goes well. I'll be following along.

[georgee1]

Was doing the barbell rows had a question and concern. I was watching nick wright powerlifting on canditos 6 week routine. And he did the bend over rows underhand but didn't go low and keep his back parallel to the floor. is this because it's underhand that it's okay with this form?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O4ih0ymnOgA


I also know underhand and overhand target different back groups.


Then I went on strength camp play list to look for something to compare it to.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YCg1YxMt3oY

Chris goes low but uses the overhand grip? Are there different stances per grip?

Which one is for this routine.

[bleedblue94]

I think I'm going to give this routine a shot for a few months and see if I get good results. I like that it has both back and front squats. Two questions, can I add a second tricep exercise(close grip or dips) at least one of the push days and could I do romanian deads instead of the leg curl? Thanks op!

[EmDon]

I think I'm going to give this routine a shot for a few months and see if I get good results. I like that it has both back and front squats. Two questions, can I add a second tricep exercise(close grip or dips) at least one of the push days and could I do romanian deads instead of the leg curl? Thanks op!

I always end my push day with weighted dips.

[bleedblue94]

I always end my push day with weighted dips.

Are you doing this ppl routine? I want to keep at least weighted dips or CGBP in the routine. I find both hit the tricep harder than extensions

[EmDon]

Are you doing this ppl routine? I want to keep at least weighted dips or CGBP in the routine. I find both hit the tricep harder than extensions

Im using this for my contest prep log.

I've tweaked a couple exercises to suit my body but the same principal is applied.

You know your own body better than anyone, find what feels best for you and do it. Don't go crazy with sets/reps though, high Frequency and intensity with lower volume will allow you to recover as well as grow week to week.

[bleedblue94]

Im using this for my contest prep log.

I've tweaked a couple exercises to suit my body but the same principal is applied.

You know your own body better than anyone, find what feels best for you and do it. Don't go crazy with sets/reps though, high Frequency and intensity with lower volume will allow you to recover as well as grow week to week.

Yeah I was just going to add 3 sets of one those exercises. Maybe alternate each week since I really enjoy both. As for the romanian deads, maybe ill do those one day and leg curls the other. Thanks for responding man!
Edit: do you or anyone have experience with deadlifts with hex plates? Reason I ask is because la fitness bought out the gym I had been at and closed it, new place has those hex plates. I haven't deadlifted there yet but seems like it might be awkward