*** Official Tennis Thread ****

[ohiostate124]

Well it’s official

[euron]

My local paper had the stat that out of the entire top50 in 2004 when Fed became #1 only Lopez and Nadal are still playing.

Lmfao.

[Camalama]

He'll get there especially since he plans to play until he's 40. After this year when he's only 6 or 7 shy he can start vulturing 250s and 500s a la Nadal.

Anyway I hope he stops thinking about records for a while and starts hitting more freely. Everything meaningful is locked up. Go out there and have fun. That's what made the first few months of 2017 enjoyable. No expectations.

[Dominik]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/zM3fkHd.png[img]

#triggered

Just when I think you guys are turning the corner you fall off the wagon.

I was specifically referring to Nadal playing on clay in the middle of a hardcourt season. If you don't consider this elite level vulturing then you have some serious fanboy issues.

2013
Chile Open Viña del Mar, Chile ATP World Tour 250 Clay, outdoor February 4–10, 2013 FINAL
Brasil Open São Paulo, Brazil ATP World Tour 250 Clay, indoor February 11–17, 2013 WON
Abierto Mexicano Telcel Acapulco, Mexico ATP World Tour 500 Clay, outdoor February 25– March 2, 2013 WON

2014
Rio Open Rio de Janeiro, Brazil ATP World Tour 500 Clay, outdoor 17 – 23 February 2014 WON

2015
Rio Open Rio de Janeiro, Brazil ATP World Tour 500 Clay, outdoor 16 – 22 February 2015 SF #FOGNINI'D
Argentina Open Buenos Aires, Argentina ATP World Tour 250 Clay, outdoor 23 February – 1 March 2015 WON

2016
Argentina Open Buenos Aires, Argentina ATP World Tour 250 Clay, outdoor 8 – 14 February 2016 SF
Rio Open Rio de Janeiro, Brazil ATP World Tour 500 Clay, outdoor 15 – 21 February 2016 SF

[ohiostate124]

Um, I think this is the trophy......

[Jayarbie]

Just posting wins means nothing when Fed wins everything he enters. #GOAT

[Dominik]

Federer deserves more credit for still being able to tweak his game in his twilight years. He completely solved the Nadal problem off clay.

All it took was adapting SABR to take the ball even earlier on the baseline which he always had the talent to do and I'm sure the larger frame helps. The last piece of the puzzle was believing it could work.

Nadal's heavy topspin has no effect when he's making contact early down low vs. letting it rise up to shoulder height on the BH side.

The only thing Nadal can do is try to hit harder and flatter and he's no Del Potro so that takes him even further away from his natural game and plays right into Federer's hands where he's the better attacking player picking up more cheap points with a superior serve.

Whoever devised this strategy and convinced him to work on it is a genius. Indoors he didn't need it because Nadal has no chance against him there but on slower HC like the AO a few years back and Wimbledon 2008 this would have made the difference.



Cliffs: Nadal has no f-ing idea what to do when he's taking it that early. All that spin is completely neutralized and suddenly he's rushed into playing defensively. Court was slow AF and please don't use the excuse he was out of form. He reached the Miami final a fortnight later and dropped one match on clay.

[Camalama]

Domenic has completely lost it. Think that is the 10th time he's posted that video in this thread

[iabs]

Domenic has completely lost it. Think that is the 10th time he's posted that video in this thread

Do you know how long they've been waiting for Fred to win again vs Rafa?

It's like Christmas for these people. Let's see what they say when Rafa inevitable brings Fred back to reality this season, all I hope is he stays healthy.

INB4 but he had mono, but his back, but the surfaces are slow as fuk now might as well be clay.

Can't wait.

[Dominik]

Domenic has completely lost it. Think that is the 10th time he's posted that video in this thread

Perfectly illustrates how well his strategy works. I'll bet you've never watched it. Must be like cutting onions.

Take away the topspin effect and Nadal's game completely dies in the ass. That's why he's got zero indoor wins against Federer outside of 2013 when every scrub and his dog were beating him. Zero ATP Finals. Only one indoor title back in 2006 and it took 5 sets.

Now of course that's all common knowledge. Unfortunately for Federer they only played 6 times indoors. If they'd played 15x like they did on clay... goodnight sweet lopsided H2H.

What has changed is he's reaping similar rewards on HC. Slow or fast it doesn't matter — the outcome is the same. And he's doing that by taking the ball earlier which is neutralizing Nadal's heavy topspin.

The man can hit BH winners all day from hip height. Now that he's making contact earlier and with a larger frame he's owning him. It's brilliant.

[iabs]

Perfectly illustrates how well his strategy works. I'll bet you've never watched it. Must be like cutting onions.

Take away the topspin effect and Nadal's game completely dies in the ass. That's why he's got zero indoor wins against Federer outside of 2013 when every scrub and his dog were beating him. Zero ATP Finals. Only one indoor title back in 2006 and it took 5 sets.

Now of course that's all common knowledge. Unfortunately for Federer they only played 6 times indoors.

What has changed is he's reaping similar rewards on HC. Slow or fast it doesn't matter — the outcome is the same. And he's doing that by taking the ball earlier which is neutralizing Nadal's heavy topspin.

The man can hit BH winners all day from hip height. Now that he's making contact earlier and with a larger frame he's owning him. It's brilliant.

Enjoy it while it lasts, the moment Fred loses half a step lets see how he gets to the balls to hit them at waist height.

It took Fred over a decade to find a working strategy vs Nadal, it will take Rafa 1 season to figure Fred out.

[Dominik]

Do you know how long they've been waiting for Fred to win again vs Rafa?

We shouldn't have had to wait this long.

If only Bull had showed up more than twice in 2014-2015 to take his beatings. Straight up ducked him in Cinci 2015. Would have been a 6-0 6-2 demolition.

Anyway all you've done is throw insults rather than address what I posted about his strategy.

It took Fred over a decade to find a working strategy vs Nadal, it will take Rafa 1 season to figure Fred out.

How? He's only got one game plan. Uncle Toni say hit with heavy spin to the BH and get the error no? That's no longer working bull brah.

Actually Federer's game has always matched up well with him outside of a slow court. Nadal has only 3 wins post RG. Flogged mercilessly indoors. His only win on grass came after 5 hours of grinding in darkness.

[iabs]

We shouldn't have had to wait this long.

If only Bull had showed up more than twice in 2014-2015 to take his beatings. Straight up ducked him in Cinci 2015. Would have been a 6-0 6-2 demolition.

Anyway all you've done is throw insults rather than address what I posted about his strategy.

What insult? I already addressed it, Fred loses half a step and it's bye bye to taking the ball early, and you think Rafa can't flatten his shots and grind Fred into the ground again? lol you have a rude awakening incoming. This is a an almost 37 yr old guy we're talking about here, he can thank the heavens the field is a genuine joke right now, that is a fact.

While we're at it, can you please e-mail me the U.S. mega million numbers, please?

[Dominik]

he can thank the heavens the field is a genuine joke right now, that is a fact.

15-2 against the Top 10 since 2017. Nadal is 12-7. 4-0 vs. Nadal.

Joke field or not he's still owning Nadal.

Anyway...

Indoors 1-5
Grass 1-2
________________________
Wimbledon-ATP Finals: *3-9 *Wimbledon 2008 and a couple of wins in 2013

Fact: Nadal has no answers outside of clay and slow HC. And now even on slow HC... 0-2 in 2017.

Federer has finally wised up to avoiding him on clay since Nadal has made a career of avoiding him after RG.

[Dominik]

0 losses in 2018. He's lost one match since the US Open. No signs of slowing down yet.

He was a couple of tiebreak points from dusting Cilic in straights in the AO final. #20 nerves got the better of him before he regrouped but then Nadal had no answers either before he pulled the pin.

[iabs]

So Rafa has only played 3 Wimby finals now?

[Dominik]

So Rafa has only played 3 Wimby finals now?

That was H2H with Federer not his career record.

2 titles from 5 Wimbledon finals is nothing to get excited about. With his talent he should have won more.

And 4 straight losses to players outside the Top 100 in his prime is truly horrific. 2013 he'd dropped 2 matches all year going into Wimbledon and gets straight setted in R1 by journeyman Steve Darcis.

[iabs]

That was H2H with Federer not his career record.

2 titles from 5 Wimbledon finals is nothing to get excited about. With his talent he should have won more.

And 4 straight losses to players outside the Top 100 in his prime is truly horrific. 2013 he'd dropped 2 matches all year going into Wimbledon and gets straight setted in R1 by journeyman Steve Darcis.

Well, I guess 1 title out of 5 RG finals is pretty pathetic considering people regard you as the GOAT and all. 0-4 vs Rafa in every final, didn't even take it to 5 sets...

[Camalama]

I will give Federer credit in two areas: 1) His freakish longevity and 2) beating people he's supposed to beat.

This combination has allowed him to vulture Grandslams between the Sampras era by beating scrubs like Hewitt, Roddick, and Gonzalez. When Djokovic and Nadal hit their peak in 2008 (Nadal peaked earlier) Federer won 5 slams from 2008-2017 vs 12 prior. Now that Djokovic and Nadal have a dip in play/injured his freakish longevity has allowed him to vulture more GS by beating like scrubs by the names of Raonic, Cilic and Berdych.

If Nadal and Djokovic were Federer's age he would probably have anywhere between 10-12 slams instead of the 20 he has now. All of them would probably have less slams but Nadal would have the most as he is still pretty much unbeatable on clay while the other two are beatable on grass and hardcourt.

[iabs]

I will give Federer credit in two areas: 1) His freakish longevity and 2) beating people he's supposed to beat.

This combination has allowed him to vulture Grandslams between the Sampras era by beating scrubs like Hewitt, Roddick, and Gonzalez. When Djokovic and Nadal hit their peak in 2008 (Nadal peaked earlier) Federer won 5 slams from 2008-2017 vs 12 prior. Now that Djokovic and Nadal have a dip in play/injured his freakish longevity has allowed him to vulture more GS by beating like scrubs by the names of Raonic, Cilic and Berdych.

If Nadal and Djokovic were Federer's age he would probably have anywhere between 10-12 slams instead of the 20 he has now. All of them would probably have less slams but Nadal would have the most as he is still pretty much unbeatable on clay while the other two are beatable on grass and hardcourt.

Things can change really quick, just look at Murrovic.

But, as it stands the lost gen and the "new gen" are no where to be found, bar injury Nadal and Fed should remain unchallenged for at the very least the remaining of this season. Dojker is a big question mark, Murray is done, Stan is done and that's that.

The are 2 factors that will dictate whether Rafa will catch or surpass Roger. 1- If he shows up healthy for the slams. 2- If he's as record obsessive as Roger to continue playing into his mid/late 30's.

The biggest one for me is #2, I bet Xisca and even Rafa's family have already discussed when he should be retiring to finally settle and start a family.

[Dominik]

Well, I guess 1 title out of 5 RG finals is pretty pathetic considering people regard you as the GOAT and all. 0-4 vs Rafa in every final, didn't even take it to 5 sets...

I have never used "GOAT" to describe any player including Federer. I consider him the best player of the last 20 years and the numbers support that. I think Sampras would have had the edge at Wimbledon and the US Open in the 90s when those courts were lightning fast. Before they slowed down the grass and conditions at Wimbledon and it started looking like a dustbowl in the second week I doubt Nadal or Djokovic would have made the final let alone win it multiple times.

That's why comparing players across different eras is pointless. You can't compare Nadal and Borg either. One guy has a poly cannon and the other played with a wooden racket and retired at 26. Also back in the day no one cared about slam records and many of them didn't even play the Australian Open which is how players like Wilander got to pad their stats.

Valid point about Federer only winning one FO but without Nadal he probably wins another 5 and is in the company of Borg. Without Federer Nadal wins another 2 Wimbledon titles. Not sure why you're getting rustled. I'm saying Nadal should have won more. Translation: I believe he's a better grass court player than results show. Surely you agree about those 4 straight >#100 losses. That should never have happened. He was a beast in 2013.

[Camalama]

Things can change really quick, just look at Murrovic.

But, as it stands the lost gen and the "new gen" are no where to be found, bar injury Nadal and Fed should remain unchallenged for at the very least the remaining of this season. Dojker is a big question mark, Murray is done, Stan is done and that's that.

The are 2 factors that will dictate whether Rafa will catch or surpass Roger. 1- If he shows up healthy for the slams. 2- If he's as record obsessive as Roger to continue playing into his mid/late 30's.

The biggest one for me is #2, I bet Xisca and even Rafa's family have already discussed when he should be retiring to finally settle and start a family.

Yup agree 100% if he can stay healthy and has the passion he has a shot, esp with the nextgen not looking so great.

I have never used "GOAT" to describe any player including Federer. I consider him the best player of the last 20 years and the numbers support that. I think Sampras would have had the edge at Wimbledon and the US Open in the 90s when those courts were lightning fast. Before they slowed down the grass and conditions at Wimbledon and it started looking like a dustbowl in the second week I doubt Nadal or Djokovic would have made the final let alone win it multiple times.

That's why comparing players across different eras is pointless. You can't compare Nadal and Borg either. One guy has a poly cannon and the other played with a wooden racket and retired at 26. Also back in the day no one cared about slam records and many of them didn't even play the Australian Open which is how players like Wilander got to pad their stats.

Valid point about Federer only winning one FO but without Nadal he probably wins another 5 and is in the company of Borg. Without Federer Nadal wins another 2 Wimbledon titles. Not sure why you're getting rustled. I'm saying Nadal should have won more. Translation: I believe he's a better grass court player than results show. Surely you agree about those 4 straight >#100 losses. That should never have happened. He was a beast in 2013.

Sampras is one of the most overrated players of all time. great volleys but baseline game was sorely lacking. backhand was absolute garbage same with return of serve. he barely turned 30 and started getting bageled and breadsticked by the likes of Hewitt.

Also that excuse that courts were faster is BS. If that was the case Djokovic, Nadal and Federer would have played a lot more on faster courts and their fast court game would be better than it is now. the environment shaped their games to be baseliners.

[Dominik]

Sampras is one of the most overrated players of all time.

great volleys but baseline game was sorely lacking. backhand was absolute garbage same with return of serve. he barely turned 30 and started getting bageled and breadsticked by the likes of Hewitt.

He had one of the best running forehands of all time. Serve was only eclipsed by Karlovic, Isner, and Goran. The man was clutch AF. On fast courts in his prime he would have wiped the floor with Nadal and Djokovic.

He declined sharply by 1998 and had some injuries. He was still able to dial it in for a few more big wins but not week to week. I guess if all you've got is some grainy 240p videos on Youtube you probably won't appreciate it. I watched most of his matches in his prime. He would have troubled Federer on a fast court.

Also that excuse that courts were faster is BS. If that was the case Djokovic, Nadal and Federer would have played a lot more on faster courts and their fast court game would be better than it is now. the environment shaped their games to be baseliners.

It doesn't work like that. Their strength was fitness and movement and for a long time, even today at many big events like US Open, IW, Miami, etc., and a 3 month clay season, conditions suited that.

That's like saying if Nadal wanted to thrive indoors on faster courts he could. No he couldn't. His game is built on grinding opponents down. He needs time to wind up and hit those forehands. Where the serve dominates, shorter points, not being able to stand 10ft behind the baseline, his game is vulnerable and his results on fast courts reflect that. 0 ATP Finals. 1 Cincinnati Masters. 1 indoor title.

You're also discounting matchups where other players thrive. If Nadal played Davydenko on HC 10 times he probably loses 8 or 9.

[ohiostate124]

Yup agree 100% if he can stay healthy and has the passion he has a shot, esp with the nextgen not looking so great.



Sampras is one of the most overrated players of all time. great volleys but baseline game was sorely lacking. backhand was absolute garbage same with return of serve. he barely turned 30 and started getting bageled and breadsticked by the likes of Hewitt.

Also that excuse that courts were faster is BS. If that was the case Djokovic, Nadal and Federer would have played a lot more on faster courts and their fast court game would be better than it is now. the environment shaped their games to be baseliners.

This is why we think you don’t actually watch tennis, at least anyone besides nadal. You do know that indoor courts have existed for the entirety of Nadals career right? It’s one of the seasons of the tennis calendar. You’d think Nadal would have been able to adapt to it by now. Federer and Djokovic both have a chitload of indoor WTF titles. Why not Nadal?

[Dominik]

+ a player with 14 slams is "one of the most overrated." You can't make this stuff up.

These guys live in fantasy land and have a hardcore fetish for revisionist history.

[Jayarbie]

+ a player with 14 slams is "one of the most overrated." You can't make this stuff up.

These guys live in fantasy land and have a hardcore fetish for revisionist history.

I loved watching Sampras. We were born like 5 days apart, so he & Agassi & Courier were the up and coming American generation when I was playing in college. Those were the days for US tennis. LOL.

[iabs]

Put prime Sampras in today’s game and he’ll be another Karlovic.

Rafa and Dojker will eat him for breakfast, the guy was all serve and volley, imagine Mischa but with a GOAT serve. Lol

[Dominik]

Put prime Sampras in today’s game and he’ll be another Karlovic.

Rafa and Dojker will eat him for breakfast, the guy was all serve and volley, imagine Mischa but with a GOAT serve. Lol

The delusion is strong here. Like Federer he would have to play more from the baseline against those guys today on pathetically slow courts but on fast courts his game would be just as relevant as it was back then.

How is Nadal beating Sampras on a fast court? Returning 15ft behind the baseline? He'd be walking side to side watching aces rain down like Agassi. Sampras would be eating Nadal's weak sauce returns from the back fence for breakfast. He was one of the most explosive athletes the game has seen.



Nadal can't hold a candle to Agassi on a fast hard court so he'd struggle to win a set against prime Sampras at the US Open in the 90s.

LTFOL that he's Misha Zverev with a better serve.

Anyway the point which you missed is you can't compare eras. We can speculate but ultimately it's pointless.

Sampras was the best player of the 90s while Nadal never dominated any era. I mean FFS he's never defended a title off clay.

[Camalama]

He had one of the best running forehands of all time. Serve was only eclipsed by Karlovic, Isner, and Goran. The man was clutch AF. On fast courts in his prime he would have wiped the floor with Nadal and Djokovic.

He declined sharply by 1998 and had some injuries. He was still able to dial it in for a few more big wins but not week to week. I guess if all you've got is some grainy 240p videos on Youtube you probably won't appreciate it. I watched most of his matches in his prime. He would have troubled Federer on a fast court.

he declined sharply at age 28?

[Jayarbie]

he declined sharply at age 28?

29 is when Rafa and Djokovic and Murray all really broke down physically, too. Fed is an anomaly.