European nationalism official thread

[TheFassbender]

The 40-50 years between ww1 and ww2 spelled nothing but death and destruction for Europe as whole, and that was (non-coincidentally) at the height of Europes collective nationalism.

This is one of the most stupid things I have ever seen.

And no, I'm not Polish. I live in a country with a lot of Polish immigrants and I can tell you you are wrong.

[TheFassbender]

indo: You know nothing about Europe, you don't know what nationalism means, yet here you are in a thread about European nationalism. Another one to the ignore list, goodbye!

[getbigby2006]

I have a lot of family in Europe. Many people do have a low opinions of Poles, not as low of an opinion as they have about Muslims but still.

inb4 I'm on Fassbender's ignore list

[TheFassbender]

I have a lot of family in Europe. Many people do have a low opinions of Poles, not as low of an opinion as they have about Muslims but still.

inb4 I'm on Fassbender's ignore list

Is it unreasonable to ignore someone who knows notihng about either Europe or nationalism and yet feels entitled to post about European Nationalism?

[Spartan5364]

the fact that this thread has turned into an personal attack on me is very telling
strong arguments boys

[getbigby2006]

the fact that this thread has turned into an personal attack on me is very telling
strong arguments boys

Its pretty easy when you're complaining about diversity yet immigrated to one of the most diverse nations in the world. Its pretty easy when you're firing shots at other groups yet many people of your own race still look down on you and your ancestors. Its pretty easy when you subscribe to tribal self esteem when your ancestors havent contributed to anything except building a cold and lifeless dump

[Spartan5364]

Its pretty easy when you're complaining about diversity yet immigrated to one of the most diverse nations in the world. Its pretty easy when you're firing shots at other groups yet many people of your own race still look down on you and your ancestors. Its pretty easy when you subscribe to tribal self esteem when your ancestors havent contributed to anything except building a cold and lifeless dump

uhh no son, attack the argument, not the person presenting the argument.

[Reer43]

Fassbender is German.

[getbigby2006]

uhh no son, attack the argument, not the person presenting the argument.

Okay

the thing is, it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter how successful one group is vs the other. The group native to the land has the right to self-determination.
Whites colonists were smarter and more educated then any African natives or Indian natives or whatever but still colonialism was wrong and was a mistake.

Now I realize you're just arguing with the other guy about whether or not diversity can make a country better. No it cannot.
You can't have a strong country without a strong identity. We can import all the smart and educated immigrants that we want and it may be beneficial in the short run but in the end these people aren't willing to sacrifice for a country that is pretty much foreign to them. And thats why diversity will never work

The American identity is based on freedom, rights, guns, BBQing, patriotism, being outdoors, sports, entertainment, celebrating our past successes, etc

That identity is still well in tact for the most part

[SiegetankIV]

thread is funny

is fassbender is the only guy itt from europe?

No, I am from Italy, ethnically part Italian part German/Austrian, German as native language... its complicated ^^

Hah, really? The HRE was not nationalistic at all. Quite the opposite. It was very UN-nationalistic. There was no united German nation. And that is why the HRE lost territory.

False, the HRE lost territory because its princes, even though they shared a lot of culture and history decided to keep up their seperatistic ways, insisting on their sovreignty vis a vis the Kaiser. So the larger neighboring powers had a easy walz picking from the HRE's landmass like from an all you can eat menu.
You don't need to be nationalistic to create a standing army, a common market and a framework of rules for it and a common foreign policy. YOu don't need to be nationalistic to create a unifying identity which is not mutually exclusive with the already existing identities. After all we do not cease to be Bavarians, Saxons, Franks, Swabians, etc. despite having a unifying identity as Germans.

But I am for an EU that is actually for Europeans.

As am I

And Lucke is reasonable. He doesn't want to leave the EU. He wants to leave the euro - completely reasonable. We've seen in the past few years that monetary policy which is not good for Germany has been made policy.


But to be honest, my main reason for supporting the AfD is not because I want Germany out of the Euro, but because they are a good hope to shift Germany to the right. I want AfD-CDU coalitions on a state level (Saxony soon, for example), and in 2017 on a federal level. The AfD is a right wing, conservative party that is led by, and supported by educated individuals.

Lucke IS the AfD, there is no one else left with a great name charisma AND intelligence. The AfD started out as a protest group against "unreasonable" economic policies. But the thing is, renowned Economists do not longer support the party as they do not really have an idea what to do after the Euro and because the AfD is increasingly recruiting at the far right (which is far beyond CSU right) and increasingly so with bar-room clichès (Stammtischparolen).

And furthermore, you go too far with pro-Europeanism. A Swede is not a Greek. There can be co-operation, but there can be no European nation.

A Bavarian is no Saxon or god forbit a "Saupreiß", still they work together within the politiy of a federal state. The same holds on European level, it is just a difference of degree AND time: A little more than 200 years ago Bavarians fought and died for Napoleon against what later sould become their compatriots.
The Reich of Bismarck, which seems to be a nation state after your own taste, was founded on the basis of the war against Austria (ok, not immediatly, the French had still to surrender ) Are Austrians not as German as people from Westphalia, the Palatinate or Prussia?

I say that if those ever arguing and infighting (Länderfinanzausgleich...) little German tribes can form a state, or a nation if you will, than so can the people of Europe. Of course the resulting union won't be consisting of a homogenuous ethnicity as the Han in China but a common European identity could and should emerge.

On the other hand, if people like Marie Le Pen prevail, Europe will suffer the same end the HRE did, as easy pray for its far larger competitors, not only in the neighborhood but arround the globe.

[TheFassbender]

False, the HRE lost territory because its princes, even though they shared a lot of culture and history decided to keep up their seperatistic ways, insisting on their sovreignty vis a vis the Kaiser. So the larger neighboring powers had a easy walz picking from the HRE's landmass like from an all you can eat menu.
You don't need to be nationalistic to create a standing army, a common market and a framework of rules for it and a common foreign policy. YOu don't need to be nationalistic to create a unifying identity which is not mutually exclusive with the already existing identities. After all we do not cease to be Bavarians, Saxons, Franks, Swabians, etc. despite having a unifying identity as Germans.

Again, they lost territory because there was NO nationalism - specifically no German nationalism. If there was German nationalism perhaps it would have been united earlier.

Lucke IS the AfD, there is no one else left with a great name charisma AND intelligence. The AfD started out as a protest group against "unreasonable" economic policies. But the thing is, renowned Economists do not longer support the party as they do not really have an idea what to do after the Euro and because the AfD is increasingly recruiting at the far right (which is far beyond CSU right) and increasingly so with bar-room clichès (Stammtischparolen).

Ehh. It's a small party. They don't have anyone else on the level of Bernd Lucke, but nor do they need that. I would say the CDU also lacks really popular politicians like Merkel (after she eliminated them). The AfD are developing a good set of policies alongside the Euro, and as I said I think it was Henkel who said he'd support the Nordeuro.

I also don't think the AfD are any more right wing than the CSU was when Strauß said no party could be more right wing than the CSU.

A Bavarian is no Saxon or god forbit a "Saupreiß", still they work together within the politiy of a federal state. The same holds on European level, it is just a difference of degree AND time: A little more than 200 years ago Bavarians fought and died for Napoleon against what later sould become their compatriots.
The Reich of Bismarck, which seems to be a nation state after your own taste, was founded on the basis of the war against Austria (ok, not immediatly, the French had still to surrender ) Are Austrians not as German as people from Westphalia, the Palatinate or Prussia?

I say that if those ever arguing and infighting (Länderfinanzausgleich...) little German tribes can form a state, or a nation if you will, than so can the people of Europe. Of course the resulting union won't be consisting of a homogenuous ethnicity as the Han in China but a common European identity could and should emerge.

The levels of similarity between German states is much smaller than that compared to the difference between European states. For one we all speak German, even if some speak dialects we all mostly understand Hochdeutsch. The same certainly can't be said on a European level. And this is why I say, co-operation yes, but a united state? No way.

[TheFassbender]

Okay



The American identity is based on freedom, rights, guns, BBQing, patriotism, being outdoors, sports, entertainment, celebrating our past successes, etc

That identity is still well in tact for the most part

Those are pretty much generic to all western countries for the most part

[FutbolBoy]

I have a lot of family in Europe. Many people do have a low opinions of Poles, not as low of an opinion as they have about Muslims but still.

inb4 I'm on Fassbender's ignore list

Every region is looked down upon by the other for one reason or another. Just like the USA

[Molec]

Fassbender is German.

Arent his opinions illegal there? lol...no wonder he was being vague

[TheFassbender]

Arent his opinions illegal there? lol...no wonder he was being vague

Given that they are the current migration policy of Germany, and given that our chancellor has stated them explicitly, I would dare say that they are not illegal. Merkel hasn't been arrested.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/german...121322439.html

[Reer43]

Given that they are the current migration policy of Germany, and given that our chancellor has stated them explicitly, I would dare say that they are not illegal. Merkel hasn't been arrested.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/german...121322439.html

German leader wants immigration mainly from Europe

German Chancellor Angela Merkel says her country needs skilled workers from abroad to plug a labor shortage that threatens to harm Germany's competitiveness.

But in her weekly online address Saturday Merkel said immigrants should mainly come from other European countries.

Germany has been accused of taking advantage of high unemployment rates elsewhere in the European Union to poach skilled workers.

A recently introduced "blue card" system to encourage people with specialist skills from outside the 28-nation EU has met with limited success.

Last year, less than 2,600 people from outside the EU came to Germany using this system.

Interesting....

[FutbolBoy]

Interesting....

Good thing I'm an European Union member. Otherwise I'd have to be one of those 2,600

[TheFassbender]

Interesting....

Of course, the tiny amount of non European imigration doesn't take into account the huge level of non European emigration...

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/193...=238&nid=42932

That's almost 10% of Germany's Turkish population, gone in 4 years.

[Spartan5364]

fassbender will get you off spread.
Good to see you making short work of these haters

[TheFassbender]

fassbender will get you off spread.
Good to see you making short work of these haters

Thanks man. I have you on spread too, not that it means much lel.

[SiegetankIV]

Again, they lost territory because there was NO nationalism - specifically no German nationalism. If there was German nationalism perhaps it would have been united earlier.

There was no nationalism in France, England and Spain either and still they got to form a modern state...

Ehh. It's a small party. They don't have anyone else on the level of Bernd Lucke, but nor do they need that. I would say the CDU also lacks really popular politicians like Merkel (after she eliminated them). The AfD are developing a good set of policies alongside the Euro, and as I said I think it was Henkel who said he'd support the Nordeuro.

I agree, there is sadly a lot of mediocrecy in German politics, the fact remains that the AfD is loosing those members that you decribed as intelligent.
The idea of nordeuro is largely fictional. In such a monetary union Germany would absolutely dominate, thus not many other countries would voluntarily participate.
And please elaborate on why it was a bad deal for Germany to participate in the monetary union. Up until now it heavily profited from it and contrary to common belive Germany is not the only one paying into the Euro-rescue packages.

I also don't think the AfD are any more right wing than the CSU was when Strauß said no party could be more right wing than the CSU.

He meant there should be no more DEMOCRATIC party on the right beyond the CSU and that still holds...

The levels of similarity between German states is much smaller than that compared to the difference between European states. For one we all speak German, even if some speak dialects we all mostly understand Hochdeutsch. The same certainly can't be said on a European level. And this is why I say, co-operation yes, but a united state? No way.

As I said it is a difference only in degree and history. Hochdeutsch is "universal" in Germany exactly because their was a common political entity that promoted it as the common language. Hochdeutsch is actually derived from southern German and not really native to the North, something you understand when you hear someone speaking Platt or Friesisch.

Same goes for French, some 100 years ago what is nowaday known as French was only the language of the Ile-de-France. France as a nation did not exist, it was a heterogenic conglomerate of Burgundians, Normans, Aquitans, Occitans, Bretons, etc.

What I want to say is that nation states and national identities were once as abstract as a european identity is to us. Only with the establishing of the nation state did national identity materialize and grew. The nation state is not the result of national movements but rather the other way around. And nation states simply came into existence because at the time they were the best system of governance and power projection, today they are largely ineffcient in that regard.

[TheFassbender]

There was no nationalism in France, England and Spain either and still they got to form a modern state...

France formed a united state based on a monarchy who ruled with a divine right of kings. That's not really a model for today. Also France and Spain were "united" but they were extremely regional and the King didn't have that much power over the country until the revolution.

I agree, there is sadly a lot of mediocracy in German politics, the fact remains that the AfD is loosing those members that you decribed as intelligent.

Like who?

He meant there should be no more DEMOCRATIC party on the right beyond the CSU and that still holds...

I do not believe the AfD is more right wing than the CSU was when Strauß made that statement.

As I said it is a difference only in degree and history. Hochdeutsch is "universal" in Germany exactly because their was a common political entity that promoted it as the common language. Hochdeutsch is actually derived from southern German and not really native to the North, something you understand when you hear someone speaking Platt or Friesisch.

Same goes for French, some 100 years ago what is nowaday known as French was only the language of the Ile-de-France. France as a nation did not exist, it was a heterogenic conglomerate of Burgundians, Normans, Aquitans, Occitans, Bretons, etc.

My point is everyone in Germany speaks/spoke dialects of German, similarly in France (except in Brittany and Alsace, but they were assimilated). Such an assimilation would be a bad thing in Europe.

What I want to say is that nation states and national identities were once as abstract as a european identity is to us. Only with the establishing of the nation state did national identity materialize and grew. The nation state is not the result of national movements but rather the other way around. And nation states simply came into existence because at the time they were the best system of governance and power projection, today they are largely ineffcient in that regard.

Every country is still a nation state. People identify as Germans, French etc., but they don't identify as European in terms of nationality. Furthermore different European countries have completely divergent interests. most of Southern Europe wants less austerity, easier monetary policy, Germany and Northern Europe want more austerity and solid monetary policy. The rest of Europe wants Eurobonds, Germany doesn't. Essentially people want a Europe that makes their own country good, but they don't want any loss of national identity. And rightfully so.

Co-operation, absolutely. Economic union, maybe, as I said something like a Nordeuro would be good. But a single nation state? It's just fantasy.

Instead, we need a Europe of homogenous nation states with strong national identities. That is the model for a prosperous country.

[8814]

My fellow Europeans: just sit back and watch the right continue to rise. Nothing annoys the parasites more.

[getbigby2006]

My fellow Europeans: just sit back and watch the right continue to rise. Nothing annoys the parasites more.

Just from a quick look at your history, all your posts are about race and you're American lmao


SHOCKER

[TheFassbender]

Just from a quick look at your history, all your posts are about race and you're American lmao


SHOCKER

Just looking at your post history, all your posts were made in the last 6 days.

SHOCKER

[getbigby2006]

Those are pretty much generic to all western countries for the most part

Not really. We're the entertainment capital of the world, take more pride in our guns/freedom/rights than anyone and most BBQ originated here

[TheFassbender]

Not really. We're the entertainment capital of the world, take more pride in our guns/freedom/rights than anyone and most BBQ originated here

Nationality based on meat... well, interdasting. We'll see how that turns out

[Mulyark]

Nationality based on meat... well, interdasting. We'll see how that turns out

Beats nationalities based on a vegetable:

[Reer43]

Nationality based on meat... well, interdasting. We'll see how that turns out

At best America will turn into Brazil at worse it will turn into Mexico.

[SiegetankIV]

France formed a united state based on a monarchy who ruled with a divine right of kings. That's not really a model for today. Also France and Spain were "united" but they were extremely regional and the King didn't have that much power over the country until the revolution.

Never claimed it is a model for today, YOU implied one needed nationalism to create a modern state, i concurred that notion and you were not able to prove the opposit.

Like who?

Wolfgang Glomb http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soz...-a-969459.html
Furthermore there was no Bezirksverband of the AfD that did not change chairmen this year, most of them stepped down on their own.

I do not believe the AfD is more right wing than the CSU was when Strauß made that statement.

Well that is debatable

My point is everyone in Germany speaks/spoke dialects of German, similarly in France (except in Brittany and Alsace, but they were assimilated). Such an assimilation would be a bad thing in Europe.

And my point is that the common language of those nations is not something original but rather a byproduct of the development of the modern state.
And Aquitaine and Occitan were languages in their own right that evolved seperately from vulgar latin parallel to the development of the langues d'oil.
No one wants to destroy our current identities, I am simply promoting our common supranational identity. European nations have a common heritage and thus identity, it is not mutually exclusive with national or regional identities, it is just a layer above. As I said, just because you are German does not mean you are no longer Saxon.

Every country is still a nation state. People identify as Germans, French etc., but they don't identify as European in terms of nationality.

I do not deny that, but they do so as a result of a historical process of state development. They identify today as Germans, Frenchmen, Spaniards etc because those polities became into modern states, promoted a common language and a comon identity. If the same thing happened now with the EU, in 100-200 years our great grand children would identify first of all as Europeans, then as Germans, Spaniards etc.

Furthermore different European countries have completely divergent interests. France, Spain etc. want less austerity, easier monetary policy, Germany and Northern Europe want more austerity and solid monetary policy.

Germany wants more austerity for others (which I agree is necessary), I can't see any real austerity in the policies of the GroKo and even old Jens "brace yourselve - inflation is coming" Weidmann supported the latest reduction in interest rates. Furthermore within all those European countries there are again divergent interests. Bavaria wants an end of the Länderfinanzausgleich, Brandenburg wants more structural funds. Lombardy wants more financial autonomy and has generally a more "german" approach to economic policy, Sicily wants more state interventions (i.e. funds). Catalania wants independencia or death...
It is the responsibility of political institutions to take up those different interests, mitigate the conflict and create consensus expressed by the policies of those institutions. What worked on state level worked on European level and will continue to work if we give it a chance.[/QUOTE]

The rest of Europe wants Eurobonds, Germany doesn't. Essentially people want a Europe that makes their own country good, but they don't want any loss of national identity. And rightfully so.

Again, there is no loss of national identity through europeization the EU is actually a promotor of national and regional culture and has done more for the preservation of some regional cultures than nation states ever have.

But a single nation state? It's just fantasy.

I completely agree, a european nation state is not feasable and would be extremely harmfull to our rich culture. But it is far more likely that the EU is going to be what scholars of comparative politics call "compound democracies", a political entity somewhat similar to the US. Please educate yourselve on the matter, I reccomend reading Fabbrini: Compound democracies-Why the United States and Europe are becoming similar; and Jan Zielonka: Europe as an Empire