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  1. #91
    Registered User gomez26's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Parapapiripipi1 View Post
    Arnold was 'great' in his day because his competitors were pretty tame. He wouldn't even place in the top 10 today...that's a fact. Not with his little legs, that's for sure.
    lol then how the fukk would his competitors place today?

    simple fact of the matter is no one had great legs in the 70's & there is nothing to suggest anyone from the 70's would not have brought their legs up if they had to by requirement











    Originally Posted by Unbiasedfan View Post
    I also don't think you should count warm up sets, in which case dorian does 5 sets for back.
    strictly speaking a 'warmup set ' would contribute to your performance in future sets because a cold muscle cannot work at full capacity while a work set would reduce your performance in future sets due to cumulative fatigue - BUT this is all ALL a matter of opinion just VIEWING someone else's workout.
    Last edited by gomez26; 01-18-2015 at 06:32 AM.
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  2. #92
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    Originally Posted by pyrolee View Post
    And, you *do* realize that even with Arnold's improved conditioning that it still wasn't enough right? And you *do* realize there are politics too, right?

    And, yeah, I've seen some video footage and I was at the show, in real life. Mentzer won it hands down. Fan boy.

    P.S. Dorian Yates told me he agrees with me and that you are wrong and stop being a blind Arnold fan boy.

    Edit: I just realized this is the first time Stealth Swimmer took me on/responded to one of my posts in argument...I am rather let down...what a lame-ass retort...just a statement that Arnold's conditioning *was* the reason he won? Did you even *read* my post? Sad.

    His swimming is rather easy to detect.
    So you were there in 1980 and Dorian told you himself. Well as compelling as your insanity is I think we can all look at the photos and accept that the biggest guy on stage won a fuking bodybuilding competition. SHOCKING!










    Lol at the last pic...
    Last edited by Allers; 01-18-2015 at 02:45 PM.
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  3. #93
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    Originally Posted by pyrolee View Post
    P.P.S. I doubt anyone in here can actually read Mentzer's book and understand it. It's too high level...it's like trying to explain mathematical concepts...conceptual philosophy...to someone who only understands Calculus or combinatorials...I doubt you even have enough linguistic ability to comprehend such high-level, articulate writing...I imagine Mentzer as Morgan Freeman from Se7en and most of you guys are Brad Pitts struggling to read and comprehend things from the old classics such as Paradise Lost etc...

    The same thing happens when you guys complain that you don't understand Kai.
    That's really great....... but we already talked about and dismissed Mentzer's faux intellectual garbage in this thread.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=165930841

    Mentzer was a douche on a futile endeavor for originality without functionality. And the world realised the emperor had no clothes years ago.
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  4. #94
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    [QUOTE=Allers;1332092261]So you were there in 1980 and Dorian told you himself. Well as compelling as your insanity is I think we can all look at the photos and accept that the biggest guy on stage won a fuking bodybuilding competition. SHOCKING!


    just look at mentzer's gut

    arnold's legs look good here, in fact better then narrow mentzer's
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  5. #95
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    Originally Posted by Unbiasedfan View Post
    Pretty sure volume is total reps only. A quick search around google confirmed it. If it was your way, when a bodybuilder says he uses low volume you have no idea if he means low weight/high reps or low reps/high weight.

    If volume is the term used in your way what is the term used for total reps? my term for what you define as volume is simply tonnage.

    I also don't think you should count warm up sets, in which case dorian does 5 sets for back.


    There are different ways of measuring it, but the most recent definitions I've heard people use has been total reps x weight.


    "If a lifter performs back squats for 5 sets of 5 reps and uses 100 kilos, the volume of that exercise is 2500 kilos."

    http://www.poliquingroup.com/Article...ers_Train.aspx




    "Volume is, quite simply, the amount of weight times the number of reps times the number of sets"

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD3KxvQ9_KY



    A "quick google search" reveals multiple definitions of training volume. Like i said, what you refer to as "tonnage" is what I've been hearing more recently as "volume." I'm not saying it's more correct simply cus it's more recent, but the people i hear that definition from are people who look at weight training from a scientific perspective.


    Here, for example, it's called "volume load."
    http://www.strengthandconditioningre...hypertrophy/#3

    "For the purposes of analyzing volume as a training variable in its own right, volume can be very simply defined as the number of sets of an exercise. Thus, in the vast majority of studies investigating the effect of training volume on hypertrophy multiple sets of an exercise are compared with single sets. In a small minority, a larger number of sets of a fixed number of repetitions are compared with a smaller number of sets of the same number of repetitions.

    For controlling volume when analyzing the effects of other training variables (such as relative load, proximity to muscular failure, range of motion, rest period duration, bar speed, muscle action, or periodization type), at least three methods of equating volume between conditions are possible. Firstly and most easily, volume can be defined as the number of sets x the number of repetitions. However, this is problematic when comparing the effects of training variables that involve different absolute or relative loads, as either the total amount of weight lifted differs or the proximity to muscular failure differs or both. Consequently, other methods of equating volume have been developed. One method involves equating the mechanical work performed by reference to the load lifted (number of sets x the number of repetitions x the absolute load). This has been termed the 'volume load' (Stone et al. 1998)."




    "The classic formula used to determine weight training volume is to multiply sets x reps x weight."

    http://www.askthetrainer.com/weight-training-volume/





    So yeah, it's not like I just made up this definition. Lots of people are using it. Problem is, lots of people call "volume" something else. Like you said, some people refer to it as the number of sets only. Some people only refer to the number of sets and reps.
    "...that's the great virtue of the free market, of the private market. It enables people...who hate one another...who don't speak the same language...who would fight one another if they had the chance, to cooperate economically. We were able to deal with China when China was a communist state. Even though we thought that that was a terrible arrangement, we could still cooperate. And that's what markets enable people to do. They bring freedom with them."
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  6. #96
    Registered User Unbiasedfan's Avatar
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    Actually i goggled training volume and opened links on the first page, which confirmed it...thats what a quick search is.

    The question is, which of those definitions did Dorian use when characterizing his type of training. In my type of definition, he did use low volume. In your's, not so much, simply because he was strong. So why would he define something as low volume if it wasn't...
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  7. #97
    Banned BigNattyBiceps's Avatar
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    Mentzer was a genius.

    I tried his HIT and it works. I just worked out a muscle group once every 7-12 days, and it grew...I ate clean and healthy though.
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  8. #98
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    Originally Posted by Unbiasedfan View Post
    Actually i goggled training volume and opened links on the first page, which confirmed it...thats what a quick search is.

    The question is, which of those definitions did Dorian use when characterizing his type of training. In my type of definition, he did use low volume. In your's, not so much, simply because he was strong. So why would he define something as low volume if it wasn't...
    And as I stated in my post, I already searched, too, and posted links that confirmed my definition. You're just ignoring that.
    "...that's the great virtue of the free market, of the private market. It enables people...who hate one another...who don't speak the same language...who would fight one another if they had the chance, to cooperate economically. We were able to deal with China when China was a communist state. Even though we thought that that was a terrible arrangement, we could still cooperate. And that's what markets enable people to do. They bring freedom with them."
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  9. #99
    Laying the Smackdown. Rocky_Maivia's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Allers View Post
    Yeah, it was pretty bad.

    Dwarfed by Zane ....
    neg reds on sight crew
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  10. #100
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    Originally Posted by pyrolee View Post
    BTW? Who was there and saw this competition in person? I did. Please at least watch the video...things become MUCH more obvious.
    Umm, so the age in your stats is wrong? It says 31 which would put you as unborn...
    B: 285
    S: 375
    D: 555
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  11. #101
    do i have brotential BartPimpson's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by drudixon View Post
    Umm, so the age in your stats is wrong? It says 31 which would put you as unborn...
    The best time to study a bodybuilding show is at -4 years of age, before your mind gets clouded by all the biases of actually existing.
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  12. #102
    Registered User kimboray1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paranoy View Post
    WTF are you serious? Mike has never, ever trained like this in his entire life. He formulated this plan after he went insane & out of shape himself.

    I think most people ITT missed the 6 day rest between Day 1 & Day 2 then the 8 day rest between Day 2 & Day 3. Each bodypart less than twice a month. Good luck to anyone that takes Mentzer's stuff seriously.

    The way Mentzer actually trained in the latter part of his career was moderate volume 6-9 working sets per bodypart twice a week or so. Before that he did high volume.
    I take it very seriously. Im on 6 sets once a week right now. Im 51. And when you understand how the body really works. You understand as a natural less really is more. And by March next year everyone will see what 30 minutes a week has done for me.

    No need to spend half your life in a gym. When 30 minutes a week will give you what 10 hours wont. The body indeed has a limited recovery ability when youre a natural.

    And the only people who wont get that are genetic superiors on gear. And if you want to spend 10 years to achieve what you could in 1. That is up to the individual.
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  13. #103
    Registered User CyborgBurns's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by whiskeyjackie View Post
    I found this on youtube and wanted to share it with you guys. Here we can see Mike mentoring Markus Reinhardt on the heavy duty stuff. Interesting to see the split:

    Day 1. Chest & Back.
    - 6 day rest -
    Day 2. Legs.
    - 8 day rest -
    Day 3. Delts, Biceps & Triceps.

    And even more interesting to see the technique, training intensity, etc. So here it is!

    Day 1, Chest and back, and here is the workout they did:

    Chest

    - Warmup:
    Incline press: 3, increasing weight.
    - Superset:
    Peck deck: 1 set to failure
    Incline press: 1 rest/pause set to failure

    Back

    - Warmup:
    Pulldown: 1 set
    - Superset:
    Nautilus pullover: 1 set to failure
    Pulldown: 1 set to failure
    - Deadlift:
    4 warmup sets, increasing weight
    1 working set to failure







    Day 2, Legs, here is:

    - Warmup:
    Leg press: 4 sets, increasing weight
    - Superset:
    Leg extensions: 1 drop set to failure
    Leg press: 1 set to failure
    - Leg curl: 1 set to failure
    - Standing calves: 1 set to failure and 1 set holding the weight for as long as possible







    ... and day 3, delts and arms:

    Delts:

    - Warmup:
    Machine side laterals: 2 sets
    - Machine side laterals: 1 set to failure
    - Bumbdell bent over laterals: 1 set to failure

    Arms:

    - Standing barbell curl: 1 set to failure
    - Superset:
    Tricep pressdown: 1 set to failure
    Machine dips: 1 set to failure


    I was wondering how you feel about Markus Reinhardt's recent admission that he has been using steroids for the past 15 years, and entering "natural contests" as a cheater?

    It's all in his YouTube video: "The Truth."
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  14. #104
    Registered User cstavaru's Avatar
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    I am so sad that this thread got out of hand and turned up as a match up between Arnold fans and Mentzer fans.

    First, you really have to make a distinction between the human body recovery ability when under steroids versus natural training. Of course competitive bodybuilders can afford high volume training. But do natural bodybuilders afford this ? Do people that have full time jobs afford this ? I think not.

    After about 15 years of (100% natural) standard volume training, I was basically stagnating and was very tired most of the time, also having a full-time job. My body basically forced me to reduce the volume and seek alternatives. I knew about HIT, I thought I should give it a try, I studied a lot about it, created my own twist (very close to the Dorian Yates style) and started practicing it. The difference was immediately noticeable (after 4 weeks), especially in the leg area but also shoulders and chest.

    My gripe with this method of training is the strain it puts on the cardiovascular system. It really does work the heart more than the regular volume training. That's why I started to begin my sessions with just a few minutes of cardio, because otherwise the difference between rest heart rate and a failure set heart rate would just be uncomfortably high, even with the warm-up sets.

    My training routine is now as follows:

    Monday: Chest, Triceps and Calves, 3 sets to failure for chest, one per exercise, 2 sets to failure for triceps, 1-2 sets to failure for calves, on different exercises. Usually each set to failure is preceded by 1-2 warmup sets (sometimes there is no need for warmup sets if the muscles are already warmed up from previous sets).

    Wednesday: Back, Biceps and Hamstrings, 3 sets to failure for back, 3 sets to failure for biceps, 2 sets to failure for hamstrings, all on different exercises

    Friday: Quads and Shoulders, 3 sets to failure for quads (extensions, leg press, machine squats) and 3 sets for shoulders (one for lateral delts, one for front delts and one for rear delts, all to failure).

    I can honestly say not only that I see results that were missing for a long time, but also I am more rested and I have more energy for my job. For now, I am very happy with this style of training.

    However, after a HIT session I am usually much more fatigued than after a standard high-volume session, but the body recovers more quickly to a more rested and energetic state, whereas in the high-volume style I was just fatigued all the time.

    Hope this helps someone.
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  15. #105
    Registered User Bane11's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
    I am so sad that this thread got out of hand and turned up as a match up between Arnold fans and Mentzer fans.

    First, you really have to make a distinction between the human body recovery ability when under steroids versus natural training. Of course competitive bodybuilders can afford high volume training. But do natural bodybuilders afford this ? Do people that have full time jobs afford this ? I think not.

    After about 15 years of (100% natural) standard volume training, I was basically stagnating and was very tired most of the time, also having a full-time job. My body basically forced me to reduce the volume and seek alternatives. I knew about HIT, I thought I should give it a try, I studied a lot about it, created my own twist (very close to the Dorian Yates style) and started practicing it. The difference was immediately noticeable (after 4 weeks), especially in the leg area but also shoulders and chest.

    My gripe with this method of training is the strain it puts on the cardiovascular system. It really does work the heart more than the regular volume training. That's why I started to begin my sessions with just a few minutes of cardio, because otherwise the difference between rest heart rate and a failure set heart rate would just be uncomfortably high, even with the warm-up sets.

    My training routine is now as follows:

    Monday: Chest, Triceps and Calves, 3 sets to failure for chest, one per exercise, 2 sets to failure for triceps, 1-2 sets to failure for calves, on different exercises. Usually each set to failure is preceded by 1-2 warmup sets (sometimes there is no need for warmup sets if the muscles are already warmed up from previous sets).

    Wednesday: Back, Biceps and Hamstrings, 3 sets to failure for back, 3 sets to failure for biceps, 2 sets to failure for hamstrings, all on different exercises

    Friday: Quads and Shoulders, 3 sets to failure for quads (extensions, leg press, machine squats) and 3 sets for shoulders (one for lateral delts, one for front delts and one for rear delts, all to failure).

    I can honestly say not only that I see results that were missing for a long time, but also I am more rested and I have more energy for my job. For now, I am very happy with this style of training.

    However, after a HIT session I am usually much more fatigued than after a standard high-volume session, but the body recovers more quickly to a more rested and energetic state, whereas in the high-volume style I was just fatigued all the time.

    Hope this helps someone.
    Nope.
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  16. #106
    Registered User SOSOG's Avatar
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    I just came back to the gym after 8 years off. I have been doing the 3 day Mentzer routine with a few modifications for the last 2 months and I'm very happy with it. Thanks for your original posting. Happy New Year!
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  17. #107
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    missing excercizes

    The complete 2 day routine can be found on Ironmamagazine.Com ... this 3 day routine is fantastic but it forgot to add... bent over rows, shrugs, concentration curls or preacher, toe presses, smith machine squats, i personally added hack squats for teardrop. Also skull crushers which works the ling head of the tricep and looks cool if you have it. That's it that's all you'll ever need. When hitting plateaus add days off for recovery and to gain strength. The beauty of this method of train8ng is twice the intensity half the workout and all the gains while feeing strong and not tired. Follow the 4-2-4 second up hold down cadence. Then find another hobby to occupy your time instead of hanging out at the gym!!! Peace be with you.
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  18. #108
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    4 seconds eccentric = less weight lift
    another problem is too much rest

    i did 1 month heavy duty routine
    i only gain legs
    and i lost fat

    but it seems that i was training for resistance
    qhen i come back to other split and normal tempos 1 con and 1 ecc, i was much more weak
    arms shaking
    i became slow too
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  19. #109
    Registered User adamgentile's Avatar
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    This was NOT how Mike trained, not even close. This came up with this nonsense when he stopped training and his mind starting to lose it and wasn't sharp at the end of his short life.
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  20. #110
    Registered User adamgentile's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by adamgentile View Post
    This was NOT how Mike trained, not even close. This came up with this nonsense when he stopped training and his mind starting to lose it and wasn't sharp at the end of his short life.
    I'm embarrassed I even said this, I'm bad at the internet an a ignorant jackass. I just read 2 of Mentzer's books within the last 2 months, he has change my life on how to workout. These youtube videos have given me more wealth of knowledge than any muscle mag or internet has provided.

    He was a genius, and a funny dude.
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  21. #111
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    Originally Posted by adamgentile View Post
    I'm embarrassed I even said this, I'm bad at the internet an a ignorant jackass. I just read 2 of Mentzer's books within the last 2 months, he has change my life on how to workout. These youtube videos have given me more wealth of knowledge than any muscle mag or internet has provided.

    He was a genius, and a funny dude.
    u were right the first time.

    he never trained like that himself.

    those methods can work well for a month or 2.

    i hope you look foward to the next few months.

    keep us posted

    enjoy!
    "Though the concept is not scientifically validated in detail (it should be considered as a hypothesis rather than a scientific theory), it is useful from a practical standpoint. When training athletes, it is impossible to wait until scientific research provides all of the necessary knowledge." Vladmir M. Zatsiorsky, Ph.D.
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