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  1. #1
    Registered User bryan312's Avatar
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    Recov conflicts?

    I haven't been benching very long and I recently started deadlifting so I want to re-organize my "routine" without affecting muscle recovery of certain muscles.
    I tested dl's 3 weeks in a row and I want to try the Magnusson/Ortmayer program. I did week 1 so far.

    So all I am doing now is
    monday - deadlift
    wednesday - bicep workouts
    friday - bench press, elevated weighted bench dips (i can barely do a normal dip especially after benching), 'forward shrugs' that also work the chest, single dumbell tricep-extentions

    Should I keep this or do you think I will see results this way? I keep seeing the usual routine floating around like
    Chest / triceps
    Shoulders / Biceps
    Legs / Back

    But how do you have a chest/tricep day and then work shoulders without messing with the recovery of my shoulders which is mainly what I use when benching? Doesn't the same thing happen when you deadlift? You use most muscles in the body. I just wanted some clarification of that.
    Also I don't feel a thing in my chest when I bench and not much in my tri's even.
    Last edited by bryan312; 04-22-2014 at 12:14 PM.
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  2. #2
    Registered User jgreystoke's Avatar
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    Magnusson/Ortmayer deadlift program is a great one for guys who know what they are doing.

    It is not for guys who have a training day devoted to biceps, a tiny fraction of the muscle mass hammered by deads.

    I recommend this for guys who know nothing about programming, no offense:

    http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...-and-strength/

    After a year or so of that, you won't think that you need a training day devoted to your biceps. They will be much bigger from getting progressively stronger for all your chins and heavy curls. Not to mention that triceps contribute twice as much to upper arm size vs biceps. And tris will be much bigger from all the dips and heavy pressiing.

    When you are much stronger for reps for big exercises, and much more muscular all over(they tend to go together) from a simple program like that, and you can't progress without going to a more advanced program, then 5 3 1 deserves a look.

    When you are advanced enough to know what you are doing, Magnusson/Ortmayer deadlift program would be great for adding weight to your pull.

    Best of luck.
    Beginners:

    FIERCE 5:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=159678631

    Beyond novice, 5 3 1 or see above:)

    Unless it is obvious to anyone who isn't blind that you lift weights, you might still benefit from a little more attention to big basic barbell exercises for enough reps:).
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  3. #3
    Registered User bryan312's Avatar
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    No no... I don't think that at all. I don't dedicate a whole day on biceps I just took it out of deadlift day (monday) because they don't recommend anything else during that program. So obviously if I can't do them Monday or Friday then I need to do them Wednesday...
    The program you posted basically puts my usual bicep workouts back on monday with a different deadlift routine, then separates exercises from tricep/shoulders day.

    I don't see anything too hard about ortmayer's. I think a few minutes of lifting isn't much hard work as I've been picking up heavy things most of my life at work 8hrs/day... just not with a barbell. I think I picked up on the form quickly, I had some trouble with nerves until I learned the appropriate stretches.

    Don't get me wrong I am willing to take your advice. I just don't see how the sets of squats and deadlifts + everything else crammed in one day in this program are any easier than the few sets of deadlifts in the ortmayer program :S

    Now the main question of this thread, still not answered, how doesn't day 1 and day 4 not mess with recovery? Basically two days of working tri's in the same week. Does 'training 1 muscle per week' not count for tri's? This phrase is what I've been trying to keep in mind but apparently it is more complicated than that.
    This is a serious question btw, not arguing with you, trying to learn.
    Last edited by bryan312; 04-23-2014 at 07:49 AM.
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  4. #4
    Registered User jgreystoke's Avatar
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    Sorry I didn't answer sooner.

    The reason you don't have a day for bis or tris in a rational program, is that you can pretty much fit them in anywhere.

    I usually put them in upper body days for 5 3 1.

    But they are not SYSTEMICALLY exhausting. So you could stick them in after squats or deads if you wanted. You can easily fit them in twice a week if you want more frequency.

    Devoting a day to Magnussen/Ortmayer is a good idea. Sane people usually don't deadlift multiple times a week, or even twice a week, like they could for curls and tri extensions, or pushups for example.

    Nothing to do with one muscle per week at all. Other movements like squat and goodmorning, and even cleans and snatches have huge overlap with deadlifts. You can't isolate everything if you are training for strength, since the MOVEMENTS you train, like deads, hit a lot more besides your hams, glutes, lumbars, total posterior chain from the back of your ankles to the back of your neck. Not to mention grip and forearms.

    The reason you deadlift once a week, or once every 9 days on a slightly longer nominal "week"/wave/micorcycle, is that deadlifts are so systemically exhausting that even if volume is fairly low, recovery is often a serious issue.

    M/O deadlifts Monday.

    Incline, row + assistance like curls and tri extensions Wed.

    Squats + assistance work Fri.

    Press, chin/pulldown + assistance, which could include bis and tris, Sat, or Sun, or....

    .....Mon, making it a 9 day "week", hitting everything major muscle groups three times in two weeks, instead of twice a week on a 7 day template.

    Dead overlaps with squat. Bench/incline overlaps with Press. Row overlaps with chin.

    The squats, especially if not all-out, help recovery from the deads better than lying in bed, seriously. Pumping blood into the same muscle groups with a different movement, and without traumatizing them with max effort, helps recovery and reduces soreness.

    Lift well and prosper.
    Beginners:

    FIERCE 5:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=159678631

    Beyond novice, 5 3 1 or see above:)

    Unless it is obvious to anyone who isn't blind that you lift weights, you might still benefit from a little more attention to big basic barbell exercises for enough reps:).
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  5. #5
    Registered User bryan312's Avatar
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    Thanks, jgreystoke

    Thanks for clearly this stuff up
    There are a lot of threads on here explaining that it takes 1 week for any muscle to fully heal, with no arguments.
    It's hard to get the most accurate info even on these forums.

    I didn't train biceps on my "arm day" because I get tired after everything else, comparing to when I do the deadlifts which seems much more underwhelming to me :S I get a heavy pulse throughout my body momentarily and sweating but my arms aren't exhausted or anything like that.
    Last edited by bryan312; 04-24-2014 at 09:00 AM.
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  6. #6
    Equipment Geek Mod Wildtim's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bryan312 View Post
    Thanks, jgreystoke

    Thanks for clearly this stuff up
    There are a lot of threads on here explaining that it takes 1 week for any muscle to fully heal, with no arguments.
    It's hard to get the most accurate info even on these forums.

    I didn't train biceps on my "arm day" because I get tired after everything else, comparing to when I do the deadlifts which seems much more underwhelming to me :S I get a heavy pulse throughout my body momentarily and sweating but my arms aren't exhausted or anything like that.
    This is because you aren't very "good at" deadlifting yet. You mention just starting to do them which means that you really haven't adapted to the movement. Your neural pathways aren't programed, or to put it another way, you haven't gotten coordinated for doing the deadlift. What this means is that while you are still getting the movement pathway down you aren't actually moving as much weight as your muscles are capable of. This is why guys make massive "strength" gains as soon as they start doing a new exercise they are just getting used to it. After a while you will get "good at" deadlifting (even if your form sucks you get good at doing it your way) and then you will really push your muscles (this is when you will injure yourself with poor form). Now that you are really pushing your muscles deadlift day will have the fewest sets and the fewest reps but still be the most exhausting day of your workout week.
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  7. #7
    Registered User bryan312's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Wildtim View Post
    This is because you aren't very "good at" deadlifting yet. You mention just starting to do them which means that you really haven't adapted to the movement. Your neural pathways aren't programed, or to put it another way, you haven't gotten coordinated for doing the deadlift. What this means is that while you are still getting the movement pathway down you aren't actually moving as much weight as your muscles are capable of. This is why guys make massive "strength" gains as soon as they start doing a new exercise they are just getting used to it. After a while you will get "good at" deadlifting (even if your form sucks you get good at doing it your way) and then you will really push your muscles (this is when you will injure yourself with poor form). Now that you are really pushing your muscles deadlift day will have the fewest sets and the fewest reps but still be the most exhausting day of your workout week.
    This makes sense seeing as I can only lift a little above my own weight, does this mean I can deadlift more than once per week with minimum reps until I stop making "noob gains"? I've heard about this with other muscles. Or is it still risky for the lower back?
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  8. #8
    Registered User jgreystoke's Avatar
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    jgreystoke is offline
    Originally Posted by bryan312 View Post
    This makes sense seeing as I can only lift a little above my own weight, does this mean I can deadlift more than once per week with minimum reps until I stop making "noob gains"? I've heard about this with other muscles. Or is it still risky for the lower back?
    A noob could indeed deadlift more than once a week. But even a noob should be sensible about this, and do something like:

    Mon deadlift heavy

    Fri deadlift light.

    "Light" would be 80% of heavy day's lifts.

    I used stiff leg deads to build up my back strength when joint inflammation in my knees meant I couldn't squat and conventional deadlift worth a damn.

    I did a "heavy" session on Monday, using 5 rep sets, ramping up the weight to a CONSERVATIVE 5RM. Not all-out at all.

    And a few days later, say Friday, ramped up with easy triples, that might be lighter than Monday's 5 rep weight.

    Added 2.5kg a week for over a year. And 1kg a week for the rest of the second year, before stalling at four plates(180kg). I've still got a very strong back from that, even with long health/joint related layoffs.

    Deadlifts are not harmful to your back. They are very beneficial, if you do them right. They injury-proof your back.

    But if you do such a systemically exhausting exercise too often, or at a poundage that is too high for your current level of strength, and with bad form, like training to real failure all the time, then you will injure yourself:

    You won't feel strong when even tying your laces causes pain, and you have to ask Granny to move anything heavy for you(when she is well enough to get out of bed).

    Lift WELL and prosper.
    Beginners:

    FIERCE 5:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=159678631

    Beyond novice, 5 3 1 or see above:)

    Unless it is obvious to anyone who isn't blind that you lift weights, you might still benefit from a little more attention to big basic barbell exercises for enough reps:).
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  9. #9
    Registered User bryan312's Avatar
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    @jgreystoke I have a question
    I was reading the conditioning part of that program above. I actually want to do this but I don't know if I can. I have a super fast metabolism just sitting around, as if I already do run a lot. I struggle to get enough food in throughout the day and I even have the luxury of eating at work since my dad is my boss. I also do a bit of labor work picking up steel plates so it probably contributes to my raised metabolism and possibly lack of recovery?.
    On the other hand, I wish I could run since when ever I need to I get out of breath too easily and can't stop coughing.
    I don't have much fat to burn off, I'm 125 lbs slowly seeing results, it can get up to 128 some days but then back down.
    Wondering if you have any thoughts on this.

    By the way it also says dips are usually easier than pullups, whereas I can do pullups all day but I can barely do normal dips unless they're bench dips.

    Thanks
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    Registered User NatMuscleBrit's Avatar
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    I would give arms its own day unless you have 2 days rest between doing it and upperbody..
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  11. #11
    Registered User jgreystoke's Avatar
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    Metabolism is proportional to muscle mass when you are not running around like a blue-arse fly.

    If I maintain my 220lb weight on 3600kcal a day, and you maintain your 125lb weight on 1200kcal a day, then my metabolism is THREE TIMES FASTER THAN YOURS, even if I am comfortably plump.

    The heavy squats, deads, presses, rows etc, of the program I linked will drive your appetite up. That will allow you to grow as your strength is going up.

    When you have a ton more muscle, your metabolism will be much higher.

    At 125lbs, which might be a healthy weight for a sedentary Buddhist nun, the last thing you need to worry about is burning off fat. That attitude will keep you weaker than Granny(when she is well enough to get out of bed, otherwise you might have a slight advantage). I used to be 130lbs for years in school, college, and again in my forties(illness).

    Milk is your friend. Billions of baby mammals over a couple hundred million years can't all be wrong. You build up tolerance a glass at a time. A spoon or two of real live plain yogurt daily will help you digest a lot of milk. Best protein/weight gain supplement available.

    Lift well(and eat enough to grow muscle) and prosper.
    Beginners:

    FIERCE 5:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=159678631

    Beyond novice, 5 3 1 or see above:)

    Unless it is obvious to anyone who isn't blind that you lift weights, you might still benefit from a little more attention to big basic barbell exercises for enough reps:).
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  12. #12
    Registered User bryan312's Avatar
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    Actually 129lb now Most I've ever weighed. I definitely need more than 1200 cal to maintain that.

    I was more worried about losing muscle mass by running not fat. But I guess that would mean I'm not eating enough.

    As far as milk, that is all I drink at home. Water at work.
    How can I get that yogurt? The store has the sugary yoplait stuff or the greek yogurt which I hated, is that what you mean?

    Sadly, I'm getting some insomnia now and can't sleep no matter how tired I am, I don't know if it's because I'm benching and working tri's twice a week now or what. (since my tri's wouldn't show as much progress as everything else)
    But I just started using zma and it says no calcium when I take it which is a bummer as I normally take protein+milk before bed. The zma, only taken it once so far, didn't seem to help much. Along with Valerian root, melatonin, 5-htp, nothing worked. I'm behind probably a week in a good nights sleep.

    Thanks for the knowledge
    Last edited by bryan312; 05-14-2014 at 11:32 AM.
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