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  1. #571
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    Originally Posted by k1ngoftheranch View Post
    The 3 sets is when u move to the novice program...if you are still in beginner program making gains stick with the routine as written..
    Where is the detail on the novice program? Dont see a sticky for it. Thanks!!

  2. #572
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Pi1 View Post
    Where is the detail on the novice program? Dont see a sticky for it. Thanks!!
    Its 99% the same. Novice is just the first 3 lifts (squat/bench/row) done in the 4-8 rep range, with 3 sets instead of 2. Its about the same amount of reps in the workout, just with an extra 90 second rest. You really should only switch to it if you are doing 75% bw for bench and 100% bw for squat. Its a nice segway to allpro intermediate v2 which is 4 sets of squat/bench/row in the 4-8 rep range.

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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Its 99% the same. Novice is just the first 3 lifts (squat/bench/row) done in the 4-8 rep range, with 3 sets instead of 2. Its about the same amount of reps in the workout, just with an extra 90 second rest. You really should only switch to it if you are doing 75% bw for bench and 100% bw for squat. Its a nice segway to allpro intermediate v2 which is 4 sets of squat/bench/row in the 4-8 rep range.
    Thanks!!
    Those are really the benchmarks to switch to novice? I am well past each of those but have not considered any changes to my workout at rhis point.

    Btw-i have read most if not all your posts here. Your contributions are a tremendous help. Thank you!!!

  4. #574
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    Worst test day ever. Decided to try a home made mass gainer shake today which was basically 2 cups of whole milk, 2 tables spoons of peanut butter, a banana, 2 scoops of protein and 2 ounces of heavy whipping cream. So I drank about half of it an hour before going to the gym. As soon as i finished doing my squats i started to feel a bit queesy. Managed to pass everything except for the bench press. Didn't do biceps and calf raises cus after the sldl i ran to the bathroom where i just let everything up. Then called it a day. I might try drinking the shake in the morning so i have a few hours to make sure its digested but i duno if i want to give that a go again.

    squat 205 pass
    bench 140 set one complete, set two did seven reps fail
    bent over row 120 pass
    shoulder press 75 pass
    deadlift 190 pass
    bicep incomplete..... busy puking so ill count it as a fail
    calf raises....still puking so ill count it as a fail

    I may just re do test day on friday and see how everything goes
    Last edited by ClassActJack; 04-15-2014 at 05:01 PM.

  5. #575
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    Originally Posted by Pi1 View Post
    Thanks!!
    Those are really the benchmarks to switch to novice? I am well past each of those but have not considered any changes to my workout at rhis point.

    Btw-i have read most if not all your posts here. Your contributions are a tremendous help. Thank you!!!
    This is a beginner routine and each week we have someone who starts out with the bar for at least the light day. Thats a big leap from that to say 1 plate for the bench. I switched to the novice at 1 plate (135lbs) and it really helped my bad shoulder (kids dont go swimming on the east coast when there is a hurricane coming, even though its cool as hell to have surf-able waves, rocks hurt). The who beginner/novice routine kinda ends at body weight for 12 for bench and 1.5 bw for 12 for squat. within 2 cycles of hitting those you wont be able to go up 10% a month any more, and have to switch to something else like all pro intermediate v2 or greyskull LP. Anything with linear progression (either with reps or weight) without the weekly deload (light day) would work. You figure if you hit 300lbs on the squat in 18 months, it might take a year to hit 400lbs, and another year to hit 440.

    Originally Posted by ClassActJack View Post
    Worst test day ever. Decided to try a home made mass gainer shake today which was basically 2 cups of whole milk, 2 tables spoons of peanut butter, a banana, 2 scoops of protein and 2 ounces of heavy whipping cream. So I drank about half of it an hour before going to the gym. As soon as i finished doing my squats i started to feel a bit queesy. Managed to pass everything except for the bench press. Didn't do biceps and calf raises cus after the sldl i ran to the bathroom where i just let everything up. Then called it a day. I might try drinking the shake in the morning so i have a few hours to make sure its digested but i duno if i want to give that a go again.

    squat 205 pass
    bench 140 set one complete, set two did seven reps fail
    bent over row 120 pass
    shoulder press 75 pass
    deadlift 190 pass
    bicep incomplete..... busy puking so ill count it as a fail
    calf raises....still puking so ill count it as a fail

    I may just re do test day on friday and see how everything goes
    Mix up your protein sources and add alot more fiber. My favorite is peanut butter and banana sandwiches on wheat. The macros are something around 400 cals and 18 grams of protein per sandwich. Eat 2 throughout the day and you hit 1/3 your protein needs of the day and enough extra calories to gain a pound a week if you also started lifting and do a couple 5k (come on they are 20min if you dog it) runs per week.



    In Other news i just hit a new PR of 6 reps of 185 on the squat for my 3rd heavy (and last) session of the week. I Dont know what happened but 30 days ago i worked up to 185, collapsed at the 3rd rep, and had to crawl out from under the safety pins. I went down to 1 plate and worked my way back up over the month. I think my problem is i was setting the bar too high on the rack ( 6" hole spacing, so either just at shoulder or at nipples). Now i just dive into it and i can lift it with a tight core.

  6. #576
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post


    Mix up your protein sources and add alot more fiber. My favorite is peanut butter and banana sandwiches on wheat. The macros are something around 400 cals and 18 grams of protein per sandwich. Eat 2 throughout the day and you hit 1/3 your protein needs of the day and enough extra calories to gain a pound a week if you also started lifting and do a couple 5k (come on they are 20min if you dog it) runs per week.



    In Other news i just hit a new PR of 6 reps of 185 on the squat for my 3rd heavy (and last) session of the week. I Dont know what happened but 30 days ago i worked up to 185, collapsed at the 3rd rep, and had to crawl out from under the safety pins. I went down to 1 plate and worked my way back up over the month. I think my problem is i was setting the bar too high on the rack ( 6" hole spacing, so either just at shoulder or at nipples). Now i just dive into it and i can lift it with a tight core.
    Congrats on the new PR. And I was planning on incorporating interval training on the bikes next week when I start the new cycle. Just to keep off some fat.

  7. #577
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    With this routine lately i havent been eating as much and not as often as i should but have been maintaning my weight somehow...wondering best method to shed some fat but i dont want to drop to much weight if that makes sense...im 166 now and cant decide if i should bulk more or if i eat at maintenance and do the routine or where to go...

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    Originally Posted by k1ngoftheranch View Post
    With this routine lately i havent been eating as much and not as often as i should but have been maintaning my weight somehow...wondering best method to shed some fat but i dont want to drop to much weight if that makes sense...im 166 now and cant decide if i should bulk more or if i eat at maintenance and do the routine or where to go...
    In the original All Pro thread, it was recommended to eat at maintenance for one 5 week cycle and adjust from there based on personal results and goals. I started this on a cutting diet and lost 2 percent body fat over the first couple of weeks with a little extra cardio over the recommended amount. Granted that isn't much, but it was what I needed to achieve.
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  9. #579
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    It has to do with training style and rep range. On 5x5 the time is technically unlimited but after 5 min the odds of getting another rep become slim on a 5 rep set.
    On all pro the limit is 90 seconds so you are prefatigued for the next set so you can get the same results with lower weight and less connecting tissue damage. I hate to dare you to run allpro on 3-5min rests, but im pretty sure you would come back after 2 months with tendonits and stalled lifts complaints.



    Honestly i would start with lighter weights that you are guaranteed to pass your first cycle with, without having to alter the program. Whats worse case scenario, you start out 20% too light and spend an extra cycle or 2 practicing your form? Some people run the first couple of cycles at 15% increments due to N00b gains and or picking lighter weights to start off with.
    There is a B&A/progress thread on the forum that has this sticky. Most dont post B&A in the threads.
    I will go back to the gym for another test run and adjust the weight for the squats as that's the only exercise I really need more time to recover due to my diaphragm and lungs being under more pressure due to being more compressed.
    My form after 10 yrs off is still good and had an instructor correct me at the bottom of the squat as I was dipping forward slightly, so think I am ready to go with the form side of things. I only managed 90kg for 10reps and know I won't be able to do it twice so I will drop the weight as you suggested.

    I will definitely be posting B&A pics with a little right up as it's a life changing thing for me. I am now having to use a nebuliser once a day to help stop lung infections. Hopefully they will inspire someone who thinks they are passed it to make that big leap.

    Thanks for your help
    Last edited by Doughnutfingers; 04-16-2014 at 05:15 AM.

  10. #580
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    First heavy and medium day done, did great on the medium day, but had trouble on the heavy day ( Bench 7 reps x2 .. ) and I need to practice my position for the deadlifts !

    Deadlifts 135
    Squats 110 --> 81% bw
    Calf raises 100
    Bench 90 --> 67% bw
    Rows 85
    Overhead press 50
    Barbell curls 50

  11. #581
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by k1ngoftheranch View Post
    Makes more sense ro do it this way...just run lower weights and progress from there..

    Side question how lonf can i run week 1 or miss workouts before i start to lose size and strength?

    Been dealing with some personal stuff and prob gonna miss a few workout again this week.
    Strength will start going down a 5days-2 weeks from your last heavy day. Contrary to popular belief, muscle size doesnt go down till months after your last workout, if you eat at maintenance.
    Week 1 is the deload. if i was going longer term i would do week 2 heavy day once a week to maintain strength. You could probably run like that for over a month if you eat at maintenance.

  12. #582
    Registered User k1ngoftheranch's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Strength will start going down a 5days-2 weeks from your last heavy day. Contrary to popular belief, muscle size doesnt go down till months after your last workout, if you eat at maintenance.
    Week 1 is the deload. if i was going longer term i would do week 2 heavy day once a week to maintain strength. You could probably run like that for over a month if you eat at maintenance.
    Awesome thanks man

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    Finished Cycle 3 Week 1 then life happened and I have not made it to the gym in a week so I am going to restart cycle 3.

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    ok so I have mentioned I am somewhat struggling but I also readily admit I am butchering the program and doing a little too much work and eating maintenance or a little above this week. The reason for this is I have been working out on a crappy program before this for 2 years that had an absolute ton of volume. I seem to respond better to more frequency and work though. it seems like weekly deloading weakens me, the heavy day weights are really heavy on monday but if I do them again on say thursday they are not as heavy. doing medium wednesday and light friday, then heavy again monday makes monday very heavy does that make sense? more like Heavy monday, medium wednesday, heavy friday works better makes the following heavy monday easier (God this sounds dumb even as I write it). Anyway here are my weights (never squatted, rowed, OHP or SLDL/DL before this program)

    Squat 130 3x8-12
    Bench 130 3x8-12
    Rows 90 3x8-12
    OHP 60 3x8-12
    SLDL 90 3x8-12
    curls 65 3x8-12
    pull ups 3x8-12

    I do calf raises on "off" days because I climb stairs with a weighted backpack for 30 minutes for cardio

    based on this crap should I just move to this "novice" programming with 3x6-10? I seem to prefer 3 work sets as well. Maybe go to the intermediate based on the 2 years of previous dedicated consistent workouts and the adaptations that go along with that? The only thing that made the previous program crap was the actual split and working the same muscles nearly every day in some cases.

  15. #585
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    Originally Posted by fat1977 View Post
    ok so I have mentioned I am somewhat struggling but I also readily admit I am butchering the program and doing a little too much work and eating maintenance or a little above this week. The reason for this is I have been working out on a crappy program before this for 2 years that had an absolute ton of volume. I seem to respond better to more frequency and work though. it seems like weekly deloading weakens me, the heavy day weights are really heavy on monday but if I do them again on say thursday they are not as heavy. doing medium wednesday and light friday, then heavy again monday makes monday very heavy does that make sense? more like Heavy monday, medium wednesday, heavy friday works better makes the following heavy monday easier (God this sounds dumb even as I write it). Anyway here are my weights (never squatted, rowed, OHP or SLDL/DL before this program)

    Squat 130 3x8-12
    Bench 130 3x8-12
    Rows 90 3x8-12
    OHP 60 3x8-12
    SLDL 90 3x8-12
    curls 65 3x8-12
    pull ups 3x8-12

    I do calf raises on "off" days because I climb stairs with a weighted backpack for 30 minutes for cardio

    based on this crap should I just move to this "novice" programming with 3x6-10? I seem to prefer 3 work sets as well. Maybe go to the intermediate based on the 2 years of previous dedicated consistent workouts and the adaptations that go along with that? The only thing that made the previous program crap was the actual split and working the same muscles nearly every day in some cases.

    Some people approach this program as a 2 days a week heavy load program, if I recall correctly. So heavy day on tuesday then again on friday.

  16. #586
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    Two questions regarding the routine

    Question 1: The first day is heavy workout, the second of medium which is basically -10% of your weights on the first day, and the third day is light workout which is -20%. So if I bench 60kg on the 3rd+4th set on the first day (which basically mean I should bench 15kg on the first set and then 30kg on second set). Does that mean I should bench 13.5 kg on the first set and 27kg on the second set and then 54kg on the third and fourth sets of the second day? Or does the -10% and -20% only count for 3rd and 4th workout sets?

    Question 2: Are we talking about total weights(inclyde the bar?) so if I can bench 60kg total (20 kg eachside of the bar) does that mean I should start the first set with just the bar? (Since 60/4=15kg, but the bar weights 20kg)

    Or are we talking about the weights besides the BAR? (So first set I lift with 5kg on each side since 40/4=10)

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    Originally Posted by LucasP96 View Post
    Question 1: The first day is heavy workout, the second of medium which is basically -10% of your weights on the first day, and the third day is light workout which is -20%. So if I bench 60kg on the 3rd+4th set on the first day (which basically mean I should bench 15kg on the first set and then 30kg on second set). Does that mean I should bench 13.5 kg on the first set and 27kg on the second set and then 54kg on the third and fourth sets of the second day? Or does the -10% and -20% only count for 3rd and 4th workout sets?

    Question 2: Are we talking about total weights(inclyde the bar?) so if I can bench 60kg total (20 kg eachside of the bar) does that mean I should start the first set with just the bar? (Since 60/4=15kg, but the bar weights 20kg)

    Or are we talking about the weights besides the BAR? (So first set I lift with 5kg on each side since 40/4=10)
    Pick 2 weights to use for warmups, use them for the entire month. The 25/50% was an example. Alot of people dont use it since its not even close to working weight.

    Yes all weights used/calculated/posted should include the bar.

    If your warmup is less than bar, use bar for warmup.

  18. #588
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    Originally Posted by TheJTF2 View Post
    First heavy and medium day done, did great on the medium day, but had trouble on the heavy day ( Bench 7 reps x2 .. ) and I need to practice my position for the deadlifts !

    Deadlifts 135
    Squats 110 --> 81% bw
    Calf raises 100
    Bench 90 --> 67% bw
    Rows 85
    Overhead press 50
    Barbell curls 50
    If you are failing to get your reps in the very first week then you have set the weight to high for bench. Reset your heavy day to your medium day weight and proceed from there.

    Good luck.
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    Originally Posted by nightanole View Post
    Its 99% the same. Novice is just the first 3 lifts (squat/bench/row) done in the 4-8 rep range, with 3 sets instead of 2. Its about the same amount of reps in the workout, just with an extra 90 second rest. You really should only switch to it if you are doing 75% bw for bench and 100% bw for squat. Its a nice segway to allpro intermediate v2 which is 4 sets of squat/bench/row in the 4-8 rep range.
    Doing 75% bw for bench and 100% bw for squat at how many reps? 10? 12?

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    Originally Posted by LuizLeandroG View Post
    Doing 75% bw for bench and 100% bw for squat at how many reps? 10? 12?
    At 12.

  21. #591
    Registered User ClassActJack's Avatar
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    I've been thinking about throwing some plates under my heels next time I squat. Right now I'm just rocking some converse chucks to the gym, a flat soled shoe. I feel my form is pretty ace, its just when I squat I'm forced to lean slightly forward so the pressure is more in the centre of my foot rather in then on my heels at the bottom of the squat. I would sit further back on my heels but if i do i know the weight will cause me to fall back. OR i may invest in some olympic lifting shoes if i can find a distributer around me. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

  22. #592
    Registered User TheJTF2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mainer215 View Post
    If you are failing to get your reps in the very first week then you have set the weight to high for bench. Reset your heavy day to your medium day weight and proceed from there.

    Good luck.
    Yeah, I am able to do the 8 reps with 90lbs once out of two .. so I will drop it to 80lbs for the first cycle, even if I find it easy at this weight. ^^

  23. #593
    Registered User LittlestGiant's Avatar
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    Did my testing few days ago to start the program, novice program so 3 sets for reps progressing from 4 to 8 on first three exercises.

    This is what I got..

    Squat-135lbs for 6 reps. Gonna start here. Maybe had another rep and I got 185lbs for one few days before but was really trying to go deep so feel good here

    Bench press-135lbs for 5 reps. Should I just go ahead and start here since it was so close or knock it down to 125 or 130 for first cycle??

    BOR-85lbs for 6 reps. Could have and did get a bit more weight but felt my form and reps weren't solid so gonna start lower here at the 85lbs

    OHP-65lbs for 10 reps. Little struggle so feel good here

    SLDL-155lbs for 10 reps. Feel good here no grip issue either and my hammies are really feeling it still two days later

    BB curls-55lbs for 10 reps. Struggle here but hit 10 with form so gonna start here

    Calf raises-185lbs for 10 reps. Again felt good so feel good starting here

    So how does this all look?? Suggestions on the bench press??

    Also beginning of the week I weighed 139.4lbs so am I ok to do novice version?
    Last edited by LittlestGiant; 04-16-2014 at 08:04 PM.

  24. #594
    Registered User campeao's Avatar
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    Did this for first time today after doing starting strength for 9 weeks (got bored of it)

    Loved the workout, much prefer it to SS. SS did give me good strength gains no hate on the program just gets boring.

    squat 150
    bench 110
    OHP 60
    SLDL 90
    bent over row 90
    barbell curls 40
    calf 200 (used leg press machine tip of toes...dont half a calf machine other than that)

    I think maybe i started too low for stiff legged? Considering a user above has a 110 squat and a 135 SLDL whereas my squat isat 150? i just guessed a weight and put anything. The 8 reps were still tough mainly because i used a slow ROM to feel it more but i feel i could probaly add more weight to the bar and push myself more. Will probaly add an additional 20 pounds for next weeks heavy day

    btw do you have to do 2 warmup sets for every single excercise...its pretty time consuming always changing plates. For squat and bench + OHP i understand you definately need warmups but after that your body should be good to go for the rest no?
    Last edited by campeao; 04-16-2014 at 08:16 PM.

  25. #595
    On my way Mainer215's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by campeao View Post
    Did this for first time today after doing starting strength for 9 weeks (got bored of it)

    Loved the workout, much prefer it to SS. SS did give me good strength gains no hate on the program just gets boring.

    squat 150
    bench 110
    OHP 60
    SLDL 90
    bent over row 90
    barbell curls 40
    calf 200 (used leg press machine tip of toes...dont half a calf machine other than that)

    I think maybe i started too low for stiff legged? Considering a user above has a 110 squat and a 135 SLDL whereas my squat isat 150? i just guessed a weight and put anything. The 8 reps were still tough mainly because i used a slow ROM to feel it more but i feel i could probaly add more weight to the bar and push myself more. Will probaly add an additional 20 pounds for next weeks heavy day

    btw do you have to do 2 warmup sets for every single excercise...its pretty time consuming always changing plates. For squat and bench + OHP i understand you definately need warmups but after that your body should be good to go for the rest no?
    I would keep the SLDL where it is and at the end of the cycle it feels real easy on test day then bump it by 20% instead of 10%.

    You only need to do warm-ups for squat, bench, and BOR. The rest are optional.

    Good luck.
    View my progress at http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=154724503

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  26. #596
    Registered User TheJTF2's Avatar
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    Small question ;

    What is the difference between novice and beginner ? I know beginner sets are 2x 8-12 and novice 3x 4-8, but how to know If I am novice or beginner ?

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    Horrible week so far. Felt a bit ill Sunday and woke up really early the next couple of days which made my heavy day on Tuesday weak. Thought today was going to be better but I felt so tired in the afternoon and at the gym I failed Squats, Bench and BOR and had 0 motivation I called it a day. I don't know what's wrong with me the weight isn't even much. :/

  28. #598
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    Originally Posted by Alexm01 View Post
    Horrible week so far. Felt a bit ill Sunday and woke up really early the next couple of days which made my heavy day on Tuesday weak. Thought today was going to be better but I felt so tired in the afternoon and at the gym I failed Squats, Bench and BOR and had 0 motivation I called it a day. I don't know what's wrong with me the weight isn't even much. :/
    Sometimes u have a bad week....sleep...food...etc play a huge role...i know lately i havent really been into it the last two weeks since i tweaked my knee and had to drop my squats....stick with it youll be fine..

  29. #599
    Registered User nightanole's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TheJTF2 View Post
    Small question ;

    What is the difference between novice and beginner ? I know beginner sets are 2x 8-12 and novice 3x 4-8, but how to know If I am novice or beginner ?
    Doing 75% bw for bench and 100% bw for squat for 12 reps qualifies you for novice. At that point the mixed rep/weight pattern might help more since you would be doing bench for 4 and ohp for 8, etc.

  30. #600
    Registered User GP100's Avatar
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    cycle 6 week 4 medium day.

    Sqt-185-4x7
    Bench-205-4x7
    BOR-150-4x7
    ohp-115-2x11
    sldl-185-2x11
    curls-80-2x11
    calfraises-185-2x11
    shrugs-150-2x11
    Last edited by GP100; 04-17-2014 at 08:40 PM.

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