Post-graduation car thoughts

[M0hi]

Alright I'll start of by saying graduation is a VERY long way away. But this has been a lingering thought for some time and I like to plan things well in advance.

I have a goal of owning a MKIV Supra Turbo before I am 30 (100% srs feasible childhood dream)
So when I graduate my first car obviously has to be car that will allow me to spend the least bit of money so I can save.

I thought I would probably choose the new Mazda 3 (after the kinks have been worked out). 17k starting, 41 mpg highway, 170hp 155 tq and to me it looks nice and obviously comes with modern technology. And I have no doubt the mazda would last me as a DD for many years to come.


As some of you know from my posts I am die hard toyota fanboy. My other idea, would be picking up an early 90's all-trac 2 door hatchback celica.
(2.0L 4-cyl. Turbo AWD 5-speed Manual)
200 hp and 200 tq stock. AWD would be nice for winter here. 22mpg highway.
I love how it looks, it would be at least 10k cheaper than the mazda3 and it would be a nice beater. I have seen some very nice cleaned up and lightly modified ones running for under 7k. If i am not mistaken they are actually pretty rare. My problem is that I have no idea how reliable they and especially with their age if it would be economical to use as daily driver to save money to get Supra AND then still DD it once I have supra because it would be around this time in my life I'd be looking for a house. Lastly, I can only assume it has a good aftermarket, out of all the toyotas I have a high interest in this one yet know the least about it.
Srsly is HNNNGGG to me:


What you brahs think, am I letting my toyota love overcome all logical thought? Any input/knowlege of the all trac celica?
My main thing is, assuming I have to commute via driving to work once I graduate, I wouldn't be bored in the all trac compared to mazda3. I honestly don't care for all the luxuries of modern cars besides heated seats, but I can deal with it.

[BSMEforme]

Reliable transportation is priority #1 for a professional job (old or new)

Once that's taken care of, do whatever you want within reason

[BakeryMaster]

depends on what your priorities are.

get supra quickest?

or look decent now and get supra.


if you really want the supra id suggest getting a used corolla or civic for couple grand that has less than 60k miles. Save the rest for your supra.


If not either way get a used car. No matter what route you take by getting even a slightly used car instead of new you'll save yourself a lot of money that you could put toward a supra down the road.

just my 2c

[WSG1]

IMO, Its best to have a very reliable daily driver to last you, that way you dont keep pissing money into it that you dont want to.. I'm in the same boat as you, I want to buy a C6Z06 before i hit 30, So im saving extra income in a bank account specifically made for my dream car(s). With the older Celica, This can become a huge money pit and potentially extend your goals even further. Especially older cars with AWD and turbo, 20+ year old turbos and AWD system will definitely not be all that reliable.

[xXBrutalXx]

This is the Misc you clearly need a 6-8 year old BMW that depreciates faster than a worn out Vag

[gbailey42]

When i graduated I bought a new 2011 STI-sold it within a year to use as a down payment on a house and I drove a 92 4runner for a year until I bought my Tacoma. My advice is to buy something sensible, used and reliable that way most of the depreciation has been taken on it so you can sell it for roughly what you bought it for if need be. I thought I "deserved" a nice car for graduating college but it wasn't fiscally responsible.

[M0hi]

Reliable transportation is priority #1 for a professional job (old or new)

Once that's taken care of, do whatever you want within reason

Completely agree, but for me at least the driving experience to and from work needs to be at least a LITTLE exciting otherwise you feel like another drone working the 9 to 5.
I have heard of people in southern states DDing their base vettes just because anything else is absolutely boring and miserable

depends on what your priorities are.

get supra quickest?

or look decent now and get supra.

If not either way get a used car. No matter what route you take by getting even a slightly used car instead of new you'll save yourself a lot of money that you could put toward a supra down the road.

just my 2c

That part of my life is going to be a complicated mess that I can't even begin to plan out. I'll be graduating with minimal to no debt srs. But not sure about grad school and loans that go with it. Ill probably be living in an apartment of some sort, and around the age I can reasonably and responsibly afford a Supra it will likely be in my mid to upper 20's. Which is to my knowledge, the age you look for a house you can pay off ASAP. I myself don't like the idea of living in an apartment with a DD and a weekend car and I myself would be against it and advise against it to other people, but the Supra means that much to me srs that I'm willing to do it. And of course I plan on a used car, whatever problems this newly designed mazda 3 has will hopefully be fixed with the model or 2 after it, which should be available when I graduate.

IMO, Its best to have a very reliable daily driver to last you, that way you dont keep pissing money into it that you dont want to.. I'm in the same boat as you, I want to buy a C6Z06 before i hit 30, So im saving extra income in a bank account specifically made for my dream car(s). With the older Celica, This can become a huge money pit and potentially extend your goals even further. Especially older cars with AWD and turbo, 20+ year old turbos and AWD system will definitely not be all that reliable.

Hurts to hear that, but I understand. I could see the celica becoming a money pit rather easily. And by the age of 30, I don't want two of them (Supra is notorious for this lol due to modding addiction).

This is the Misc you clearly need a 6-8 year old BMW that depreciates faster than a worn out Vag

Already have 7 brah. Real talk, got to sit in latest BMW m6 yesterday, I completely understand BMW fanboys now. Felt amazing just to sit in.


Also for lols and not trying to start a war. Because of a long-standing rivalry with one of my best friends. after I have the Supra, I'll need to do whatever I can to it to make it better than the new Camaro z28. So even more money is going down the drain after even all of this.

[WSG1]

My friend and i have this war going on aswell. I originally had a 1994 Mustang GT with bolt ons and gears, He had a 350z with exhaust and boltons, He beat me pretty bad, I sold my 94 GT and bought a supercharged Roush and destroyed his 350z, He sold his 350z and bought a 2004 Cobra and that destroyed my Roush, Sold my Roush and bought a 1995 Cobra with a built H/C/I motor and blew my trans before we could run and it sat for about 7 months under a cover before i sold it. He sold the Cobra and bought another 350z and settled on that................ for the meantime.

[M0hi]

My friend and i have this war going on aswell. I originally had a 1994 Mustang GT with bolt ons and gears, He had a 350z with exhaust and boltons, He beat me pretty bad, I sold my 94 GT and bought a supercharged Roush and destroyed his 350z, He sold his 350z and bought a 2004 Cobra and that destroyed my Roush, Sold my Roush and bought a 1995 Cobra with a built H/C/I motor and blew my trans before we could run and it sat for about 7 months under a cover before i sold it. He sold the Cobra and bought another 350z and settled on that................ for the meantime.

Literally lol'd so hard reading that.
The car guys I have in my friend group are pretty interesting
Me: Supra
one of my best friends: Z28 camaro
friend 2: Corvette
friend 3: Sti/R34
friend 4: rx7
friend 5: R8
friend 6: Although he is more into trucks, he is a big Ford guy so it's Mustang for him.
friend 7: BRZ
The funny part is, at the rate we're going, we'll all be able to afford them. I dream of us rolling up to HS reunion together. Not to show off, but in terms of wow we actually went through with it.

[NoShatsGiven]

I always liked the SW20 MR2 Turbo. I believe the ST185 AllTrac has the same 3SGTE engine, and from what I remember the coolant hose was a PITA to replace (and you will have to replace it) because it was located behind the turbo.


Have you looked at the WRX? That's what I'm considering.

[WSG1]

Literally lol'd so hard reading that.
The car guys I have in my friend group are pretty interesting
Me: Supra
one of my best friends: Z28 camaro
friend 2: Corvette
friend 3: Sti/R34
friend 4: rx7
friend 5: R8
friend 6: Although he is more into trucks, he is a big Ford guy so it's Mustang for him.
friend 7: BRZ
The funny part is, at the rate we're going, we'll all be able to afford them. I dream of us rolling up to HS reunion together. Not to show off, but in terms of wow we actually went through with it.

Its super fun rolling around with like 5-6 friends.. We typically would roll up to house parties and chit 10 cars deep.



The red z was replaced by a 2004 Cobra shortly after that picture, Then another friend sold his Mazda and bought a 2004 GT, Also had a buddy with a 2008 350z who came with us alot and another with a 2002 Camaro SS. Those Friday night cruise nights where some AMAZING times. We all took a break because we all got bored of doing it every week for 2 years but planning on starting it up again this upcoming summer with a whole new group of cars.

[M0hi]

I always liked the SW20 MR2 Turbo. I believe the ST185 AllTrac has the same 3SGTE engine, and from what I remember the coolant hose was a PITA to replace (and you will have to replace it) because it was located behind the turbo.


Have you looked at the WRX? That's what I'm considering.

I am a big fan of the wrx, but not something I see myself DDing and it's a bit too expensive for my goals (not saying it is expensive as a whole). I need something is completely reliable, a little on the economy side, looks pretty good and is at least a LITTLE fun to drive all for as cheap as possible. WRX is a little too expensive for this. I sat in the new mazda3 at chicago autoshow and really liked it (then again all i've driven is a 2005 nissan sentra and a 2006 chrysler town and country, so everything is good to me lol). Mazda has recently been trying really hard to step up their game and become a major player in the automotive world. I believe they are in a small "over-engineering" phase that is going to churn out very good cars for the price hence my want for the mazda3. Other cars I would go far is the average Honda's, my toyota from what I've seen needs to step up their average consumer game compared to honda.
Also, did you say MR2?
Watch this in all its glory:

Its super fun rolling around with like 5-6 friends.. We typically would roll up to house parties and chit 10 cars deep.


The red z was replaced by a 2004 Cobra shortly after that picture, Then another friend sold his Mazda and bought a 2004 GT, Also had a buddy with a 2008 350z who came with us alot and another with a 2002 Camaro SS. Those Friday night cruise nights where some AMAZING times. We all took a break because we all got bored of doing it every week for 2 years but planning on starting it up again this upcoming summer with a whole new group of cars.

So jealous brah, I could never afford my own car growing up let alone a sports car, and all my friends first cars were just hand me down from parents so we could never do this.
Someday.

[WSG1]

So jealous brah, I could never afford my own car growing up let alone a sports car, and all my friends first cars were just hand me down from parents so we could never do this.
Someday.

Its possible to have a decent sports car for cheap. I bought my 1994 Mustang GT for $1300 bucks and made it look presentable. My buddy was alittle more lucky, He found a great paying job at 18 years old and got several raises and bonus' from it, which allowed him to get a 350z at 20.

Hell, Some people that attend these meets have straight up buckets so you dont need to have a $100k car to have fun. Its all about having a good time more than anything.

[M0hi]

Its possible to have a decent sports car for cheap. I bought my 1994 Mustang GT for $1300 bucks and made it look presentable. My buddy was alittle more lucky, He found a great paying job at 18 years old and got several raises and bonus' from it, which allowed him to get a 350z at 20.

Hell, Some people that attend these meets have straight up buckets so you dont need to have a $100k car to have fun. Its all about having a good time more than anything.

I agree, there was a late 90's firebird for sale around my house for about 1k that i really wanted, but even still was too involved in school work and parents did not have the money for it.

[sanblz33]

Good luck finding an all-trac

[yourname2221]

And of course I plan on a used car, whatever problems this newly designed mazda 3 has will hopefully be fixed with the model or 2 after it, which should be available when I graduate.

You say your not graduating for a while meaning this whole fixed issue wont be a problem. They haven't been having any major problems with the new 3's and I can't forsee them having major issues either. If anything just pick up a low mile gen 2 with the 2.5L and still get 30mpg and save money on the purchase price vs new.

[jujuB]

follow the 10% rule.

drive a car that is valued at 10% of your yearly net income. So yeah, $50k a year, drive a $5k car.

its a financially sound decision... where the money can go into something else like a house, which appreciates unlike a car.

[WSG1]

follow the 10% rule.

drive a car that is valued at 10% of your yearly net income. So yeah, $50k a year, drive a $5k car.

its a financially sound decision... where the money can go into something else like a house, which appreciates unlike a car.

There is an exception to certain cars. If i'm going to drop a large amount of money on a car, Its going to be a car that holds its value. A car like a Supra is only going to gain value over time so that can infact be a good financial move. For an everyday daily driver, I cant see myself spending more than a couple grand on one because its a stupid financial decision to buy a new SUV or Eco car just to have it lose 75% of its value in 5 years.

[SuperAmmo]

Alright I'll start of by saying graduation is a VERY long way away. But this has been a lingering thought for some time and I like to plan things well in advance.

I have a goal of owning a MKIV Supra Turbo before I am 30 (100% srs feasible childhood dream)
So when I graduate my first car obviously has to be car that will allow me to spend the least bit of money so I can save.

I thought I would probably choose the new Mazda 3 (after the kinks have been worked out). 17k starting, 41 mpg highway, 170hp 155 tq and to me it looks nice and obviously comes with modern technology. And I have no doubt the mazda would last me as a DD for many years to come.


As some of you know from my posts I am die hard toyota fanboy. My other idea, would be picking up an early 90's all-trac 2 door hatchback celica.
(2.0L 4-cyl. Turbo AWD 5-speed Manual)
200 hp and 200 tq stock. AWD would be nice for winter here. 22mpg highway.
I love how it looks, it would be at least 10k cheaper than the mazda3 and it would be a nice beater. I have seen some very nice cleaned up and lightly modified ones running for under 7k. If i am not mistaken they are actually pretty rare. My problem is that I have no idea how reliable they and especially with their age if it would be economical to use as daily driver to save money to get Supra AND then still DD it once I have supra because it would be around this time in my life I'd be looking for a house. Lastly, I can only assume it has a good aftermarket, out of all the toyotas I have a high interest in this one yet know the least about it.
Srsly is HNNNGGG to me:


What you brahs think, am I letting my toyota love overcome all logical thought? Any input/knowlege of the all trac celica?
My main thing is, assuming I have to commute via driving to work once I graduate, I wouldn't be bored in the all trac compared to mazda3. I honestly don't care for all the luxuries of modern cars besides heated seats, but I can deal with it.

Logically, it depends on how far you're driving every day and what the warranty is on the car. You don't want to buy a cheap car that you spend more in maintenance than the car itself when you're young.

For what you want, a used Mazda3 would suit your needs. Depreciation would already be gone and the maintenance wouldn't be much because it's still a pretty new model.

[fourdegrees]

You should be able to get a lightly used Scion FR-S for a little over $20k. Get your Toyota fix, and get a car you can enjoy for the foreseeable future. If not that you should just get a civic/corolla/focus for under $10k and save as much as you can toward your dream car.

[sumolgi]

Hey MOhi, just so I can be no help at all... $17K is a pretty nice mark II Supra and change for maintenance and mods. Couldn't help but give you another option

[2011change]

LOL at finding an All-trac. Good luck.

[dixie_normus]

My first car after i graduated was a hyundai elantra. So far so good (only 4 months old) and its a good cheap reliable car. I average about 30mpg, and 40 on the highway. 40 bucks to fill up and i could drive on it for 9 hours. Pretty good IMO. Do what you want, my next car (hopefully I have a better job by then) will be one of those nicer cars I hope

[JKD]

OP,

How much do you have saved, and how much do you have invested?

What is your living situation currently?

Do you have any debt?

Answer the above and I'll be able to give you better advice.

[s2kvtec9]

Threads like this annoy me a little. I remember when I was like 16 and was certain that I was going to get an STi. I had a few thousand dollars lol.

OP, how many years out is this "plan?" Seems kind of irrelevant. Anyway supras are awesome, but when you actually do save $40k I think you'll be more reserved about spending it on a 20-25 year old car with 70-150k miles.

Just my opinion. end rant

Edit: my post came off douchey, I apologize for that. But you do kind of sound like a kid with pipe dreams rather than actual current plans.

[M0hi]

follow the 10% rule.

drive a car that is valued at 10% of your yearly net income. So yeah, $50k a year, drive a $5k car.

its a financially sound decision... where the money can go into something else like a house, which appreciates unlike a car.

I won't be like every other engineer claim my starting salary is going to be 60k, but I should be graduating with 0 debt and really good credit (I am really good at using money wisely, ie only using credit card when I have the money to back up purchase in the bank). I could definitely see myself getting a 5kish car with great MPG (whatever is the best for the long term buck at the time)

You should be able to get a lightly used Scion FR-S for a little over $20k. Get your Toyota fix, and get a car you can enjoy for the foreseeable future. If not that you should just get a civic/corolla/focus for under $10k and save as much as you can toward your dream car.

As much as I would like to do this lol, I would love to get the GT86, but, using that as a DD especially in chicago winters would get me killed in <5 years. On top of insurance costs, no thanks jeff.

OP,

How much do you have saved, and how much do you have invested?
Nada, I might as well say its my 2nd semester of college, I do have an internship this summer and I have plans for that discussed below
What is your living situation currently?
College dorm for now and is likely to stay this way until I graduate (I have a position with campus housing that as of next year gives me free housing and a very small paycheck from there on out)

Do you have any debt?
10k at the moment, will hopefully be paid off using internship money plus possible other job (at a mazda dealership by whatever coincidence lol) + paycheck from school +scholarships (grants cover everything except my 10k housing, which won't even be a cost next year and I will actually be applying for scholarships to pay off debt)
Answer the above and I'll be able to give you better advice.

In bold. I would like to note, my mother raised my family of 4 on 23k a year so i know how to get by with very little.

Threads like this annoy me a little. I remember when I was like 16 and was certain that I was going to get an STi. I had a few thousand dollars lol.

OP, how many years out is this "plan?" Seems kind of irrelevant. Anyway supras are awesome, but when you actually do save $40k I think you'll be more reserved about spending it on a 20-25 year old car with 70-150k miles.

Just my opinion. end rant

Edit: my post came off douchey, I apologize for that. But you do kind of sound like a kid with pipe dreams rather than actual current plans.

At least 3 possibly more. I could graduate with a BS in engineering in 2.5 more years or even sooner if I wanted to, but am prolonging my graduation to get a minor in electrical (only 4 extra classes due to high overlap) as well possibly pursuing a masters because my field is pretty new (this is the big flaw in my plan because this will either cost a lot or if I get lucky not cost much) and although is set to grow exponentially there is still limited availability. Normally I wouldn't be for prolonging my graduation but considering I won't be getting myself into more debt and the fact that I am waiting for my industry to fully take off I feel it is the right move. As far as being a 16 year old wanting a sportscar, I'm 19, and I'd be arrogant enough to say smarter than your average 19 year old. As far as plans go, internship this summer along with (if time permits) working for mazda dealership--which who knows, could hook me up with a legitimately good deal on the mazda 3 later on. Using the stable source of income I'll be building credit and also using that money from the summer job(s) to pay off the debt I have now if scholarships next year can't. Once the debt is paid off (well before graduating) I'll probably dump the rest of the money I have or make into a savings account. My job for campus housing during the school year will cover cost of housing as well as a paycheck I can use for food.
As far the Supra itself, it is an appreciating asset that is also a feasible dream and it'd be worth it to me unless something within me drastically changes. Supra TT (manual) go for about 30k right now and built go for 50k. I fully planning on getting everything I can restored. I can understand your post and even with how much thought I put into it, there's so much that could go wrong between now and then, but assuming things go as planned (which the almost never do) it would nice to be at least a little prepared.


Also the appreciating asset of a supra is kind of pointless because once I have it, I absolutely refuse to sell it, I plan to pass it on for generations like people did with classic American muscle cars. I will also haunt my grandchildren if they sell it.

[JKD]

Hey bro,

I get that you want a nice car right now, but reading the above post where you answered my questions about savings/investments/debt/living situation, I'd really recommend you get your financial house in order before you take on additional debt or spend all your hard earned dough on a car.

Trust me, in 5 years you will wish you could go back and kick your past self in the nuts for buying a flashy car right now.

My advice, take care of your debt, save up 6 months expenses in cash, and accumulate some savings and investments. Once you are debt free with a nice financial cushion, your options will open up and you will be able to get the car you want. Who knows, you might think twice about dropping a lot of money on a car once you feel the peace of mind that comes from living within your means.

Think long and hard mate - a car is fun but often becomes an albatross around your neck.

[s2kvtec9]

I won't be like every other engineer claim my starting salary is going to be 60k, but I should be graduating with 0 debt and really good credit (I am really good at using money wisely, ie only using credit card when I have the money to back up purchase in the bank). I could definitely see myself getting a 5kish car with great MPG (whatever is the best for the long term buck at the time)


As much as I would like to do this lol, I would love to get the GT86, but, using that as a DD especially in chicago winters would get me killed in <5 years. On top of insurance costs, no thanks jeff.

In bold. I would like to note, my mother raised my family of 4 on 23k a year so i know how to get by with very little.

At least 3 possibly more. I could graduate with a BS in engineering in 2.5 more years or even sooner if I wanted to, but am prolonging my graduation to get a minor in electrical (only 4 extra classes due to high overlap) as well possibly pursuing a masters because my field is pretty new (this is the big flaw in my plan because this will either cost a lot or if I get lucky not cost much) and although is set to grow exponentially there is still limited availability. Normally I wouldn't be for prolonging my graduation but considering I won't be getting myself into more debt and the fact that I am waiting for my industry to fully take off I feel it is the right move. As far as being a 16 year old wanting a sportscar, I'm 19, and I'd be arrogant enough to say smarter than your average 19 year old. As far as plans go, internship this summer along with (if time permits) working for mazda dealership--which who knows, could hook me up with a legitimately good deal on the mazda 3 later on. Using the stable source of income I'll be building credit and also using that money from the summer job(s) to pay off the debt I have now if scholarships next year can't. Once the debt is paid off (well before graduating) I'll probably dump the rest of the money I have or make into a savings account. My job for campus housing during the school year will cover cost of housing as well as a paycheck I can use for food.
As far the Supra itself, it is an appreciating asset that is also a feasible dream and it'd be worth it to me unless something within me drastically changes. Supra TT (manual) go for about 30k right now and built go for 50k. I fully planning on getting everything I can restored. I can understand your post and even with how much thought I put into it, there's so much that could go wrong between now and then, but assuming things go as planned (which the almost never do) it would nice to be at least a little prepared.


Also the appreciating asset of a supra is kind of pointless because once I have it, I absolutely refuse to sell it, I plan to pass it on for generations like people did with classic American muscle cars. I will also haunt my grandchildren if they sell it.

So (and no offense) you are a 19 year-old college freshmore with no money...

Why are we even discussing anything other than $3-5k civics/Camrys? Let alone $50k supras??

It's all about priorities, I own a nice house, in a nice area and just purchased my third s2000 cash just to drive on the weekends. I was able to do this because I drove a 2001 accord 5 speed with 179k miles and a spray painted bumper for 3 years.

Even now my daily driver is a 1999 CR-V.

I just really DO NOT see the point of this thread beyond pipe dreams. If you want to discuss supras vs modern cars or supras in general, that would make sense. But why are we talking about a purchase 3-5+ years away?

We could all start a thread about owning ferraris in 10 years, but what's the point??

[M0hi]

Hey bro,

I get that you want a nice car right now, but reading the above post where you answered my questions about savings/investments/debt/living situation, I'd really recommend you get your financial house in order before you take on additional debt or spend all your hard earned dough on a car.

Trust me, in 5 years you will wish you could go back and kick your past self in the nuts for buying a flashy car right now.

My advice, take care of your debt, save up 6 months expenses in cash, and accumulate some savings and investments. Once you are debt free with a nice financial cushion, your options will open up and you will be able to get the car you want. Who knows, you might think twice about dropping a lot of money on a car once you feel the peace of mind that comes from living within your means.

Think long and hard mate - a car is fun but often becomes an albatross around your neck.

I don't want to buy a flashy car right now, I just a financially sound means of transportation that would best suit me getting the Supra before the age of 30, but with solid finances to back it up.

So (and no offense) you are a 19 year-old college freshmore with no money...

Why are we even discussing anything other than $3-5k civics/Camrys? Let alone $50k supras??

It's all about priorities, I own a nice house, in a nice area and just purchased my third s2000 cash just to drive on the weekends. I was able to do this because I drove a 2001 accord 5 speed with 179k miles and a spray painted bumper for 3 years.

Even now my daily driver is a 1999 CR-V.

I just really DO NOT see the point of this thread beyond pipe dreams. If you want to discuss supras vs modern cars or supras in general, that would make sense. But why are we talking about a purchase 3-5+ years away?

We could all start a thread about owning ferraris in 10 years, but what's the point??

The point would be to have at least somewhat of a plan (with input from other people ie this thread) to follow the best course of action. I am essentially asking what car and what type of financial decisions should I be making from here to graduation to beyond to acquire the Supra at a good time. I apologize if I came off as rude or anything thus far, yes for now it's a dream and not much else than that. But I am trying to have some sort of plan to bring that dream closer to reality because I firmly believes its possible without nuking myself financially.
I would have no problem driving your daily drivers for years lol.

EDIT: I also wish Vicious would actually post in this section. I really want to know what its like owning that curse. (For unawares he's a miscer with a very CLEAN 1100 HP supra)

[jujuB]

real talk, you need about $100k to have a NICELY done supra with the high 4 figure WHP, which is the only way it should be.