"Fierce 5" Novice Routine

[VanillaBearB]

Yea but I've been doing squats for months and it seems no sense to deload just because I'm changing the rep range (I was doing allpro while cutting), it's not like i'm fatigued; if I deload now to 54kg and come back to increase 4kg every week I guarentee you I'm going to stall again, I already tried it when I started and it didn't work for me.

On Allpros, your progression was through reps and an increase in 10% every 4 weeks. This is a novice program with faster progression, hence you'll be challenging yourself more strength wise and it will be more taxing on your CNS. Doing 3 sets of 8 won't be as CNS taxing as 3 sets of 5 with 5kg increases every week. Look at ANY strength based program, they will all say, start light so that you can get used to the progression as well as the weight. Take one step back to take two steps forward; an expression that is useful in all aspects of life. You reckon you'll stall again, then eat more. It may be a mental thing, but you are not some special exception that this program wont work for.

But you won't listen to me, because you didn't listen to OP or Connor. So go and do whatever the **** you want.

[connorpat1995]

Yea but I've been doing squats for months and it seems no sense to deload just because I'm changing the rep range (I was doing allpro while cutting), it's not like i'm fatigued; if I deload now to 54kg and come back to increase 4kg every week I guarentee you I'm going to stall again, I already tried it when I started and it didn't work for me.

that's a self-fulfilling prophesy

[davisj3537]

Hey davisj, great routine, been running it for just over 3 months and this is my progress so far:
(lbs)
dl 132 -> 231
squat 120 - > 187
bench 105 - > 170
incline bench 100 -> 143 (2 months)
pendlays 88 -> 121

As you can see, my bench progress is alot faster than anything else, and it feels like I am really making good progress, my squat and my dl progress is reallllly slow atm, and I have been pretty much stuck here for just over a month (did a deload) and after the deload and 2 resets I still can't increase the weights.

I have very tight / inflexible hip flexors and feel like this really hinders me, if you think this could be a cause for the constant stalling, how should i approach the progression from now on? (im doing alot of stretching and flexibility exercises at the moment to try and loosen up my hip flexors)

(500 calorie surplus, and I am gaining weight)

Thanks.

First off great progress. Secondly, if you dropped 15% like suggested for a reset there is no way you could have done two in the last month....doing a legit reset is my advice.




nicvannic, I can give you all the advice in the world, but if you aren't going to follow it then I can't help you. Also, no one gets to intermediate in 4 months. Remember the 15% drops and deloads. That is an integral part of any program. When you stalled on 64kg, you were supposed to drop 15%...





As for DL/leg curl vs front squat/RDL-I've addressed this before briefly, but I want to touch on it again. So obviously the FS/RDL is a quad and a ham movement. The DL/leg curl is a where the controversy begins.

Many people consider the DL to be a ham movement, well I will agree to a point, but it still involves lots of quads, though it should primarily be a glute/lower back movement. Since you are getting some quad/ham/glute going on in the DL I'm good with a leg curl paired with it.

Overdeveloped quads/lower back cause hip issues. Ab work and leg curls directly counteract this. I'd rather see too much ham work, than too much quad work. This means that both workouts A and B will be slightly ham dominant. This ensures healthy hips. The RDL sub for DL is not only an attempt at a nice ham/quad balance, but also to reduce lower back work. It will get plenty from RDL, pendlays...etc. Just like quads, if the lower back gets too much work compared to abs then it will lead to issues.

I'm not to the point of saying abs/glutes/hams needs 2xwork that quads/lower back does, but you certainly want to give them a little extra emphasis. Before anyone says can I add more ab work? You get ab work with most of your compounds so no you can't add more./rant

[nicvannic]

On Allpros, your progression was through reps and an increase in 10% every 4 weeks. This is a novice program with faster progression, hence you'll be challenging yourself more strength wise and it will be more taxing on your CNS. Doing 3 sets of 8 won't be as CNS taxing as 3 sets of 5 with 5kg increases every week. Look at ANY strength based program, they will all say, start light so that you can get used to the progression as well as the weight. Take one step back to take two steps forward; an expression that is useful in all aspects of life. You reckon you'll stall again, then eat more. It may be a mental thing, but you are not some special exception that this program wont work for.

But you won't listen to me, because you didn't listen to OP or Connor. So go and do whatever the **** you want.

The fact is I started light, I completed 60kgx5 but going up 4kg every week for me is a big jump. I could have started with 50kgx5 (so really light) but I was already doing 56x12kg for weeks which is harder. I don't really buy that theory about adapting to the progression: let's assume I start with 40kgx5 (so basically nothing because it requires no effort for me to lift that weight), in a month I'm back to 60kg but I actually started to feel something only the week before (even 56x5 is easy as hell), in the meantime I only wasted 4 weeks gaining fat

I did stronglifts (very similar routine) in the beginning and I started with the empty bar, deloaded a lot of times and still stalled when I came back to my original weight. That's because deloading is for recovery and I didn't need recovery, I only needed to progress slower. I remember when I started with the empty bar on the bench press, it was basically one month wasted because I already knew how to bench press from high school and could already lift 40kg, when I started to really challenge my limits I stalled almost immediatly. So no, the adapting to the faster progression theory didn't work for me.

It's not like I've not tried. I tried it a lot and only wasted time. And about that theory that you need to eat more: I can agree 250cal surplus is not enough for optimal results but I'd rather progress a little slower than getting fat again (I was eating 2800 cal back then and it turned out to be a mistake), I can probably speed up a little my progress but I'm going to gain a lot more fat. As I said I'm aiming at 250gr/week.

that's a self-fulfilling prophesy

I already tried when I believed it would work and it did nothing for me.

First off great progress. Secondly, if you dropped 15% like suggested for a reset there is no way you could have done two in the last month....doing a legit reset is my advice.




nicvannic, I can give you all the advice in the world, but if you aren't going to follow it then I can't help you. Also, no one gets to intermediate in 4 months. Remember the 15% drops and deloads. That is an integral part of any program. When you stalled on 64kg, you were supposed to drop 15%...

The next time I'll stall I'm going to deload by 15% and try the 4kg progression but I already tried it in the past and I kept stalling (actually it was 2kg per workout but it's basically the same). I agree with everything you are saying, the only thing I know it's not working for me is the faster progression (4kg every week instead of 2kg). My idea is just to progress by 2kg instead of 4kg, the rest is the same (deloading by 15% when stalling etc.).

As for DL/leg curl vs front squat/RDL-I've addressed this before briefly, but I want to touch on it again. So obviously the FS/RDL is a quad and a ham movement. The DL/leg curl is a where the controversy begins.

Many people consider the DL to be a ham movement, well I will agree to a point, but it still involves lots of quads, though it should primarily be a glute/lower back movement. Since you are getting some quad/ham/glute going on in the DL I'm good with a leg curl paired with it.

Overdeveloped quads/lower back cause hip issues. Ab work and leg curls directly counteract this. I'd rather see too much ham work, than too much quad work. This means that both workouts A and B will be slightly ham dominant. This ensures healthy hips. The RDL sub for DL is not only an attempt at a nice ham/quad balance, but also to reduce lower back work. It will get plenty from RDL, pendlays...etc. Just like quads, if the lower back gets too much work compared to abs then it will lead to issues.

I'm not to the point of saying abs/glutes/hams needs 2xwork that quads/lower back does, but you certainly want to give them a little extra emphasis. Before anyone says can I add more ab work? You get ab work with most of your compounds so no you can't add more./rant

Thanks for the explanation and now I see the reasoning behind it, I only have one question: you said you'd rather see too much ham work than too much quad work: is RLD paired with leg curls viable or is it going to be too much ham work at that point? (it's of course a lot more work for the hams but is it going to create imbalances?).
By the way, considering I'm getting rid of the pendlay rows (so, less back work) I'll switch to standard deadlift (so I'm going to increase my workload on the lower back)/leg curls.

[cfc39]

sorry if this has been answered already and ive missed it whilst scanning through replies , but i plan on starting this programme in the next couple of days . when i go to the gym to establish my starting weights for all exercises, when im doing that for the squats should i use the same weight for both regular and front squats ? i just see that if i establish my weight for squats , then try the same method for front squats il already be a bit tired from regular squats and therefore would establish an incorrect starting weight fro front squats .

[davisj3537]

Thanks for the explanation and now I see the reasoning behind it, I only have one question: you said you'd rather see too much ham work than too much quad work: is RLD paired with leg curls viable or is it going to be too much ham work at that point? (it's of course a lot more work for the hams but is it going to create imbalances?).
By the way, considering I'm getting rid of the pendlay rows (so, less back work) I'll switch to standard deadlift (so I'm going to increase my workload on the lower back)/leg curls.

The difference is RDL doesn't work quads at all, while DL does. RDL paired with leg curls means zero quad work on workout B. That isn't going to cut it.

You can remove pendlays if you like, but I'd advise against it. They are in the program not only because they improve scapular movement, but they are a staple in any exercise program. Learn to love them. That goes for all the exercises in the program Learn to love them because if you are going to continue lifting these exercises are the basis of every good program.

sorry if this has been answered already and ive missed it whilst scanning through replies , but i plan on starting this programme in the next couple of days . when i go to the gym to establish my starting weights for all exercises, when im doing that for the squats should i use the same weight for both regular and front squats ? i just see that if i establish my weight for squats , then try the same method for front squats il already be a bit tired from regular squats and therefore would establish an incorrect starting weight fro front squats .

Well you'll need to do workout A and workout B separately. Just like you were running the full program.

[cfc39]

i see so should i say go tomorrow and establish my weights for workout A , call that my workout , then rest and go to the gym and establish my weights for workout B . then rest , then start the programm proper ?

[davisj3537]

i see so should i say go tomorrow and establish my weights for workout A , call that my workout , then rest and go to the gym and establish my weights for workout B . then rest , then start the programm proper ?

yes, put a rest day between A and B. Good luck

[cfc39]

thanks man . tomorrow i will establish my weights for workout A , rest friday and then do the same for workout B saturday . then next week il start the program but with lighter weights just to work on form ( especially things like deadlift) . then the following week start the programm "proper" using the weights established using the methods and the calculator in your original post . does that sound like a good plan ?

[davisj3537]

thanks man . tomorrow i will establish my weights for workout A , rest friday and then do the same for workout B saturday . then next week il start the program but with lighter weights just to work on form ( especially things like deadlift) . then the following week start the programm "proper" using the weights established using the methods and the calculator in your original post . does that sound like a good plan ?

Sounds good dude

[cfc39]

thanks again . hopefully this programme can give me the basic general strength that im so badly lacking .

[Daaa7]

Hey Davis, I really wanna thank you for the pretty awesome program. I've never followed a program before I've worked out for 7 months 2 years ago and it was a very short time and I came back this time to start again form the beginning hoping not to stop again and yesterday was my second day (Workout B) and it was awesome
I just have a couple of questions

Firstly this is my first time following a full-body program, I used to play 3+ days split I know that the full-body program is much more better especially for a beginner but I don't feel the great bump and the pain that last for several days that I used to feel when I was following the 3 days split workouts so is that normal ??

Secondly I made a mistake and used 85%-100% of the weights I can lift instead of 50% of the weights I can lift as I didn't read the FAQ and that's my fault of course so what should I do now ( Knowing that i only played for 2 days so I am still in my first week)

and thanks again for the great program

[Wicked12]

Hey Davis, I really wanna thank you for the pretty awesome program. I've never followed a program before I've worked out for 7 months 2 years ago and it was a very short time and I came back this time to start again form the beginning hoping not to stop again and yesterday was my second day (Workout B) and it was awesome
I just have a couple of questions

Firstly this is my first time following a full-body program, I used to play 3+ days split I know that the full-body program is much more better especially for a beginner but I don't feel the great bump and the pain that last for several days that I used to feel when I was following the 3 days split workouts so is that normal ??

Secondly I made a mistake and used 85%-100% of the weights I can lift instead of 50% of the weights I can lift as I didn't read the FAQ and that's my fault of course so what should I do now ( Knowing that i only played for 2 days so I am still in my first week)

and thanks again for the great program

Hi man, I'm not Davis but I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong:

You should definitely switch to a lower starting weight now so you can get used to the progression. You WILL definitely be challenged once the weights start to get heavy, which will happen sooner than you think, trust me! The progression is fast.

[davisj3537]

^^^ It will get challenging, give it time. You will not ever be sore like you were with a 3 day split...soreness is not an indication of progress.

[Daaa7]

Wicked12, Davis ......... thanks a lot for replying I really felt that weights would be heavy too fast that's why I wanted to make sure whether I should start with lighter weights or not as I wanted to play with the same weights for another 2 weeks but with higher reps until these weights become 50% of what I can really lift but it seems that it was a bad decision as non of you has mentioned it to solve the problem

Once again thank you both a lot I hope this program to get me to the goal I'm aiming to

[UnknownPreacher]

Hey Davis i am not really that much into building muscle but more into strength and gymnastics. I want to know if it would be okay to remove the last two supersetted exercises since my tricep/bicep are working in bent arm and straight arm days in gymnastics. Would something like this be okay?


Workout A
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Pendlay Rows 3x8
Weighted dips 3x5
V-sit hold progressions

Workout B
Front Squat 3x5
Incline Bench 3x5
Romanian Deadlift 3x8
Weighted pull ups 3x5
Dragonfly progressions

This would be my main training but i would also train for 2 gymnastics skills aside on rest days or whenever my body would allow it. Currently those goals are muscle up (i can do slow jump muscle up and am training for a totally controlled one) and a back lever (currently one leg tucked one extended).

Do you think this could lead to overtraining? Those little sessions for learning skills would take 30-40 minutes with rest

also i know i added weighted dips which kinda screws the push to pull ratio but i'm doing a lot of pulling during skill learning so i think it evens out

[HarryValdez]

I'm in the middle of week 3. Really loving the program so far. I think I'm about to stall on my curls. I'm doing 75lb this week. Today my form really started to go to crap about halfway through the last set. And I had to really arch my back to get the 10th rep. Should I count that as a fail? No more "B" workouts this week and two of them next week so I'm not sure if I should up the weight the 5lb, keep it the same, or go ahead and deload the 15%?

I kinda figured the curl progression was going to catch up to me sooner than anything else.

[Wicked12]

I'm in the middle of week 3. Really loving the program so far. I think I'm about to stall on my curls. I'm doing 75lb this week. Today my form really started to go to crap about halfway through the last set. And I had to really arch my back to get the 10th rep. Should I count that as a fail? No more "B" workouts this week and two of them next week so I'm not sure if I should up the weight the 5lb, keep it the same, or go ahead and deload the 15%?

I kinda figured the curl progression was going to catch up to me sooner than anything else.

Curls are an auxiliary lift, you're over thinking it big time. Do what you think is right, I would just increase it anyways personally and then if you fail drop it the following week.

Don't worry about progressing on auxiliary lifts too much. I still can't do much more at the tricep pressdowns for example. As long as you progress on DL, squats and Bench you're doing good.

[connorpat1995]

^^adding to this, you can't progress on the weights unless you have a great set of micro-plates. Just shoot to do a little more over the long-term and your biceps will develope just fine

[davisj3537]

Hey Davis i am not really that much into building muscle but more into strength and gymnastics. I want to know if it would be okay to remove the last two supersetted exercises since my tricep/bicep are working in bent arm and straight arm days in gymnastics. Would something like this be okay?


Workout A
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Pendlay Rows 3x8
Weighted dips 3x5
V-sit hold progressions

Workout B
Front Squat 3x5
Incline Bench 3x5
Romanian Deadlift 3x8
Weighted pull ups 3x5
Dragonfly progressions

This would be my main training but i would also train for 2 gymnastics skills aside on rest days or whenever my body would allow it. Currently those goals are muscle up (i can do slow jump muscle up and am training for a totally controlled one) and a back lever (currently one leg tucked one extended).

Do you think this could lead to overtraining? Those little sessions for learning skills would take 30-40 minutes with rest

also i know i added weighted dips which kinda screws the push to pull ratio but i'm doing a lot of pulling during skill learning so i think it evens out

Removing the bicep/tricep supersets would have been fine. The absolute last thing I would do is add dips.

[Ozieman3o5]

Hey Davis i am not really that much into building muscle but more into strength and gymnastics. I want to know if it would be okay to remove the last two supersetted exercises since my tricep/bicep are working in bent arm and straight arm days in gymnastics. Would something like this be okay?


Workout A
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
Pendlay Rows 3x8
Weighted dips 3x5
V-sit hold progressions

Workout B
Front Squat 3x5
Incline Bench 3x5
Romanian Deadlift 3x8
Weighted pull ups 3x5
Dragonfly progressions

This would be my main training but i would also train for 2 gymnastics skills aside on rest days or whenever my body would allow it. Currently those goals are muscle up (i can do slow jump muscle up and am training for a totally controlled one) and a back lever (currently one leg tucked one extended).

Do you think this could lead to overtraining? Those little sessions for learning skills would take 30-40 minutes with rest

also i know i added weighted dips which kinda screws the push to pull ratio but i'm doing a lot of pulling during skill learning so i think it evens out

Dips would totally screw up your progression on the bench and incline bench, remember that your already working your chest 3x a week.

[UnknownPreacher]

Yeah i thought about this. What about switching incline bench for weighted Dips? I think that's better right? And then adding reverse flys back to workout A? I like doing slow reverse flys with my head on the bench. I think this could work.

I know this still means hitting the chest 3 times per week but i would also work it like that before with incline. Dips work shoulders too so i think it's a good substitution for incline press right? I really want to do weighted dips and pull ups to test my maxes

[cfc39]

im off to the gym to assertain all my starting weights in a couple of hours . i can be prone to lower back pain though so i will be swapping romanian deadlift/front squats for dead lift and leg curls . im going to have to be careful with my back on the deadlift still though . for example i tried to do deadlift too heavy about a week ago and twinged my lower back . still a little sore at times so im not sure wether to just do them but light so i can concentrate on form and build it up slowly or wait a week or so until i add deadlift into the routine . i havent had an injury there as such , it's most likely due to how out of shape i am .

also because il be swapping out the rdl/fs i think im going to try and get the weights for both workouts sorted today so i can crack on properly from monday . what do you think ?

[davisj3537]

Yeah i thought about this. What about switching incline bench for weighted Dips? I think that's better right? And then adding reverse flys back to workout A? I like doing slow reverse flys with my head on the bench. I think this could work.

I know this still means hitting the chest 3 times per week but i would also work it like that before with incline. Dips work shoulders too so i think it's a good substitution for incline press right? I really want to do weighted dips and pull ups to test my maxes

You'll miss out on some shoulder work doing dips instead of incline, but as long as you're fine with that then go for it. Just don't put two presses on any day.

Optimally I'd swap flat bench for dips and leave incline in there...just as annotated in the acceptable subs.

im off to the gym to assertain all my starting weights in a couple of hours . i can be prone to lower back pain though so i will be swapping romanian deadlift/front squats for dead lift and leg curls . im going to have to be careful with my back on the deadlift still though . for example i tried to do deadlift too heavy about a week ago and twinged my lower back . still a little sore at times so im not sure wether to just do them but light so i can concentrate on form and build it up slowly or wait a week or so until i add deadlift into the routine . i havent had an injury there as such , it's most likely due to how out of shape i am .

also because il be swapping out the rdl/fs i think im going to try and get the weights for both workouts sorted today so i can crack on properly from monday . what do you think ?

If you have issues deadlifting why in the world would you want to remove RDL and front squats? Just run the program the way it is.

DO NOT crank out all 12 exercises in one day. Just please follow the advice given in the FAQs. Don't take shortcuts. One damn day isn't going to make a difference over the next 12 months.

[UnknownPreacher]

You'll miss out on some shoulder work doing dips instead of incline, but as long as you're fine with that then go for it. Just don't put two presses on any day.

Optimally I'd swap flat bench for dips and leave incline in there...just as annotated in the acceptable subs.

You really are the best! I will try it with dips and see how it goes.

Also yesterday i managed to do 5 chin ups with my left hand on my right hand but not very high :P I'm getting closer!

Also when i'll progress to handstands i'll work my shoulders a lot with pike push ups and handstand push ups

[davisj3537]

You really are the best! I will try it with dips and see how it goes.

Also yesterday i managed to do 5 chin ups with my left hand on my right hand but not very high :P I'm getting closer!

Also when i'll progress to handstands i'll work my shoulders a lot with pike push ups and handstand push ups

Sounds good bud

[cfc39]

resisted the urge to crank out all 12 . swapped the romanian deadlift/front squats for deadlift and leg curls as per the acceptable substitutes list simply because i was worried about hurting my lower back doing romanian deadlift . from the acceptable substitutes list i was under the impression that deadlift/leg curls would do just as well ? only issue i had deadlifting was i tried to be a hero and lift too heavy .

[HarryValdez]

Curls are an auxiliary lift, you're over thinking it big time. Do what you think is right, I would just increase it anyways personally and then if you fail drop it the following week.

Don't worry about progressing on auxiliary lifts too much. I still can't do much more at the tricep pressdowns for example. As long as you progress on DL, squats and Bench you're doing good.

LOL I'm a notorious overthinker so I'm sure you're right. I just hate the thought of leaving ANY gains on the table or "wasting" a workout.

^^adding to this, you can't progress on the weights unless you have a great set of micro-plates. Just shoot to do a little more over the long-term and your biceps will develope just fine

I'd love to have some microplates but they seem pretty overpriced. Maybe I'll look for another solution.

[davisj3537]

resisted the urge to crank out all 12 . swapped the romanian deadlift/front squats for deadlift and leg curls as per the acceptable substitutes list simply because i was worried about hurting my lower back doing romanian deadlift . from the acceptable substitutes list i was under the impression that deadlift/leg curls would do just as well ? only issue i had deadlifting was i tried to be a hero and lift too heavy .

At least you didn't crank out all 12. You can do the DL/leg curl combo, but think for a minute about the differences between DL and RDL. DL will use a much higher weight than RDL. DL primarily targets the lower back among others. RDL primarily targets hamstrings/glutes. You are WAY more likely to hurt your back with DL than RDL.





Harry, you don't leave gains on the table form small decisions like that. Gains are left on the table from a lack of frequency, poor diet and poor programming all together. Tiny details will never hurt gains in this hobby.

[Wicked12]

LOL I'm a notorious overthinker so I'm sure you're right. I just hate the thought of leaving ANY gains on the table or "wasting" a workout.


I'd love to have some microplates but they seem pretty overpriced. Maybe I'll look for another solution.

I feel you bro. I tend to overthink, too. As Davis said, with details like that just do what YOU feel is best.

I forgot to record Bench today. I'll need to send you a link to my squats again I think, I'm still not too happy with them and it feels like my lower back gets stressed too much.