"Fierce 5" Novice Routine

[thigos]

Davis,
I just started my 9th week of fierce 5 Novice. This is my first structured workout and I love it.

Couple questions:
I started my RDL, front squat, and back squat at the same weight. I have since upped my back squat an additional 20 lbs and my RDL by 30 lbs on top of the normal progression and it is managable.

1- Is there a rule of thumb for percentage difference for front squat vs back squat weight? (Like front 80% of back)?

2- Is the program meant to be run with Low bar back squat since it includes front?

3- Out of curiosity, why is the rep range 8 for RDL and Pendelay as opposed to 5 for the other compound lifts?


Any way, thanks for putting this together. Its been awesome!

[connorpat1995]

Do you approve doing extra work after workout for weaker hand?
Brother's one hand is lagging behind when doing bp or pendlay rows etc.
Like dumbbell and set or two ? (2x10 or smth?)

if he's a rank novice the imbalance should sort itself out as he gains strength
use a weight to which the lopsidedness does not occur

Davis,
I just started my 9th week of fierce 5 Novice. This is my first structured workout and I love it.

Couple questions:
I started my RDL, front squat, and back squat at the same weight. I have since upped my back squat an additional 20 lbs and my RDL by 30 lbs on top of the normal progression and it is managable.

1- Is there a rule of thumb for percentage difference for front squat vs back squat weight? (Like front 80% of back)?
front squat will be less depending on what sance you take and your mobility. ~75% as a VERY rough guess based on the progress on logs of this routine.
2- Is the program meant to be run with Low bar back squat since it includes front?
whichever you've been using fir the last 9 weeks, don't change
Davis prefers low-bar, I recommend high-bar; the difference is relatively small so any novice should do whatever feels natural
3- Out of curiosity, why is the rep range 8 for RDL and Pendelay as opposed to 5 for the other compound lifts?
less form breakdown

answers bolded

[scoutkb]

I've been working on both my front squat technique and RDL and I have a question on back/lat utilization. I started using straps to hold the bar on front squat which helps me keep my arms high and in-turn I feel my back muscles activate much more than before. I have also started to retract my scapula and keep my back tight during RDLs. Apparently I was not really flexing and keeping my back tight during RDLs before and just focusing on holding the bar and pulling with hamstrings and glutes. I did both of those exercises in that fashion today before lat pull downs (120 lbs) and could not finish my sets. I had no problem with 120 for all 3 sets during the last session. I actually did 3 sets of 9 reps during the last session for lat pull downs. The only difference now is actively trying to keep my back tight during the RDLs (115 lbs) and keeping my elbows high during front squat (120 lbs). Are my lats and back supposed to be taxed to this degree? I was only able to finish 2 sets with difficulty on the lat pull downs today. I've been eating 250 cals over my TDEE which I track everyday in myfitnesspal. Assuming I just found a weak link in my back since I started to do front squat's and RDLs correctly, I hope. Any thoughts?

[davisj3537]

I've been working on both my front squat technique and RDL and I have a question on back/lat utilization. I started using straps to hold the bar on front squat which helps me keep my arms high and in-turn I feel my back muscles activate much more than before. I have also started to retract my scapula and keep my back tight during RDLs. Apparently I was not really flexing and keeping my back tight during RDLs before and just focusing on holding the bar and pulling with hamstrings and glutes. I did both of those exercises in that fashion today before lat pull downs (120 lbs) and could not finish my sets. I had no problem with 120 for all 3 sets during the last session. I actually did 3 sets of 9 reps during the last session for lat pull downs. The only difference now is actively trying to keep my back tight during the RDLs (115 lbs) and keeping my elbows high during front squat (120 lbs). Are my lats and back supposed to be taxed to this degree? I was only able to finish 2 sets with difficulty on the lat pull downs today. I've been eating 250 cals over my TDEE which I track everyday in myfitnesspal. Assuming I just found a weak link in my back since I started to do front squat's and RDLs correctly, I hope. Any thoughts?

You made a good change to your front squat and RDL form. Of course lat pulldowns will be a bit tougher if you're getting more back work from the previous exercises. The whole situation will resolve itself if you follow the failure protocols outlined in the FAQs. I wouldn't worry about it.

[Wass1985]

Do you advise all the pressing to be done using barbells instead of dumbells? Is the incline press more beneficial for shoulder development than overhead presses?

[munichveteran]

The rows you picked aren't a good sub. Try and find something like this to support your chest, but also continue rowing horizontal (arms directly out if front of you and not angled down towards your legs.) Notice the 45 degree elbow flare.

This is the closest thing I can find in my gym...does this work?

[connorpat1995]

Do you advise all the pressing to be done using barbells instead of dumbells? Is the incline press more beneficial for shoulder development than overhead presses?

yes. Barbells allow you to move more weight over the same range of motion = more growth stimulated.
you will not notice a difference in shoulder development between incline bench v OHP. if you want big looking shoulders focus on your rear and middle dels, so add in lateral raises instead of calves, curls or triceps

This is the closest thing I can find in my gym...does this work?

looks like it. Focus on pointing your elbows out and retracting your shoulder blades at the end

[davisj3537]

This is the closest thing I can find in my gym...does this work?

Examples of good subs





The one you posted is a low row. It could work, but you'd need the seat all the way down and try rowing to your chest. The grip is very narrow which is counterproductive. Try and find something that will allow a row to the chest with elbows at 45 degrees or more.

[JohnBennettt]

I followed this routine and I got gyno from it. Donot follow it unless you want a nice pair of tits

[davisj3537]

Banned in 2 posts...well done. I can't imagine why.

[UnknownPreacher]

How exactly should I progress on the ab work? I am doing leg raises but I don't know when to progress on a more challenging variation of it.

For example if I manage to do 2x15 should I move on to the next progression or add a few reps first and then progress?

Can you do 2x15 toe to bar without using your lats? Because most gymnasts can't do that. Look into it

If you can, add ankle weights or go to dragonflag progressions. I seriously recommend trying to do leg raises as clean as possible and then moving on to dragonflags (first full negatives, then half full ones up and down, then slowly full ones). My abs and lower back are pumped as hell after dragonflags. It will help with every major compound lift, especially the lower body ones... Here's a good video how to learn it

[jodia037]

Hello everyone,

I am on my 2nd week of the program and have a progression question.

I am supposed to add reps to lifts if equipment doesn't allow. At my gym some equipment progresses in increments of 15lbs. What do I do in that instance when the following week I am still not able to increase weight because of equipment?

Do I keep adding reps as recommended until weight can increase?

[Gorz123]

Is GOMAD style nutricion necessary for this routine dave? One of my biggest concern with SS was the recommended caloric intake.

[Kitsuii]

Banned in 2 posts...well done. I can't imagine why.

Is there any reason I can't use cross grip for front squats?

I did them for the first time today and they were straining my wrists, i tried the cross grip for a set and it was much better, just wondering if it takes anything away from the lift

[connorpat1995]

Do I keep adding reps as recommended until weight can increase?

yes

Is there any reason I can't use cross grip for front squats?

use the cross-arm grip

[MyEgoProblem]

Hey guys! new guy here (note post count :P)
Basically, im 33, 6', 120kg. aka fatf*****. i've spent the last 15 years as a lazy ****, abusing my body, abusing alcohol and "stuff". it needed to change..my only real excersize was cycling to and from work
(silver lining, comparatively big calves! and solid/hard legs)

spent the last 6 months clean, with only the occasional beer on special occasions and in the gym, acclimating my body and mind to excersize, weight lifting and the new healthy life routine.
Starting on cardio machines, and cable loaded circuit machines and progressing to free weights when i had a better grasp of the general movements my body was expected to be making. in my mind, this was a smart move.

So i have been reading, studying for this time, and i came up with a routing that looked surprisingly similar to this. ABA BAB

back squat, 3x5
bench, 3x5
pendlay row, 3x6-8
cable curls, 2x8-12
cable tri pushdown, 2x8-12
facepulls, 1x15-20 hammer grip with external rotaion (front double bi, pose?)
20-30min incline treadmill.

deadlift, 1x5 (warming up with romanian deadlifts and learning power cleans with lower weights)
press, 3x5
pulldown, 3x6-8 (building up to chinups eventually)
cable lateral raise, 2x8-12
cable rear fly, 2x8-12
20-30min rowing machine/reclined bike

With chin negatives spread through out the day, daily between work shifts, at home. and band pull aparts. (this has basically 90% corrected my caveman shoudlers!)

Microloading bench and press @+1kg on rep target.
+2.5 on rows n pulldowns when rep target hit.
+2.5kg on squat and deadlift on rep target.
and move up one pin on the cable machine on rep target.
(noob gains, linear progression)

failure to meet weight twice (to account for a "bad day") was a 10% reset and amrap on last set until it leveled off back at 5reps.


So, just wanted to say thankyou to Davis and all the other guys who regularly answer and post good ****!

any comments on this setup?!

*oh,5rm. bench 70kg, squat 120kg, dead 140kg, pulling is much easier for me than pushing it seems! from 3 month of free weights.

[scoutkb]

Is there any reason I can't use cross grip for front squats?

I did them for the first time today and they were straining my wrists, i tried the cross grip for a set and it was much better, just wondering if it takes anything away from the lift

If you find you don't like the cross arm when the weights get heavier, try lifting straps. Made a huge difference for me.

[davisj3537]

Is GOMAD style nutricion necessary for this routine dave? One of my biggest concern with SS was the recommended caloric intake.

You don't have to go all GOMAD, but if you don't maintain a calorie surplus you'll waste a lot of time on ANY routine.

[Gorz123]

How much would you recommend? I was planning on a 250ish surplus but (from experience) it seems low. Don't want to get to crazy either since I was fat before and it's easier than normal for me to pack weight on.

[davisj3537]

Hey guys! new guy here (note post count :P)
Basically, im 33, 6', 120kg. aka fatf*****. i've spent the last 15 years as a lazy ****, abusing my body, abusing alcohol and "stuff". it needed to change..my only real excersize was cycling to and from work
(silver lining, comparatively big calves! and solid/hard legs)

spent the last 6 months clean, with only the occasional beer on special occasions and in the gym, acclimating my body and mind to excersize, weight lifting and the new healthy life routine.
Starting on cardio machines, and cable loaded circuit machines and progressing to free weights when i had a better grasp of the general movements my body was expected to be making. in my mind, this was a smart move.

So i have been reading, studying for this time, and i came up with a routing that looked surprisingly similar to this. ABA BAB

back squat, 3x5
bench, 3x5
pendlay row, 3x6-8
cable curls, 2x8-12
cable tri pushdown, 2x8-12
facepulls, 1x15-20 hammer grip with external rotaion (front double bi, pose?)
20-30min incline treadmill.

deadlift, 1x5 (warming up with romanian deadlifts and learning power cleans with lower weights)
press, 3x5
pulldown, 3x6-8 (building up to chinups eventually)
cable lateral raise, 2x8-12
cable rear fly, 2x8-12
20-30min rowing machine/reclined bike

With chin negatives spread through out the day, daily between work shifts, at home. and band pull aparts. (this has basically 90% corrected my caveman shoudlers!)

Microloading bench and press @+1kg on rep target.
+2.5 on rows n pulldowns when rep target hit.
+2.5kg on squat and deadlift on rep target.
and move up one pin on the cable machine on rep target.
(noob gains, linear progression)

failure to meet weight twice (to account for a "bad day") was a 10% reset and amrap on last set until it leveled off back at 5reps.


So, just wanted to say thankyou to Davis and all the other guys who regularly answer and post good ****!

any comments on this setup?!

*oh,5rm. bench 70kg, squat 120kg, dead 140kg, pulling is much easier for me than pushing it seems! from 3 month of free weights.

You did a lot of great things here, but I think you'd be better off following the original program. When you begin removing/subbing things out it leaves holes in your training plan...you have a few holes. What are they? Look at the original template and then you can see for yourself. Some of the subs you made are acceptable and some aren't. Focus on the subs you made that aren't acceptable and then look at the things you're missing.

FYI you aren't going to fix rolled shoulders doing this. It takes a special program for that.

[alinavmirza]

Need help with reverse flyes, Any links or resources to share for good form? I don't think the bench at my gym is high enough for full arm extension (this is an assumption; guilty of not trying). So, the last time i did Workout A I tried the bent over reverse flyes. that exercise for some reason loaded up my hamstrings a bit along with the delts and a bit of back. So, just want to make sure I perfect my form before I progress on the weights.

[Gorz123]

I do them bent over while sitting on a flat bench. A video on form should pop-up in google if you type "reverse fly flat bench". I can't link anything due to my post count =/

[rpedrosb]

I do them bent over while sitting on a flat bench. A video on form should pop-up in google if you type "reverse fly flat bench". I can't link anything due to my post count =/

I do them like this:

htt ps: //encrypted - tbn1.gstatic .com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQdZ90gUgveluQ_8EElI5Tl_DnGLjEv-p72VF1ZJyGXFqDFoNTygA

I don't know if that is a proper way of doing them.

[JanterFixx]

I'd kindly also ask good info on reverse flies form

[UnknownPreacher]

You don't have to go all GOMAD, but if you don't maintain a calorie surplus you'll waste a lot of time on ANY routine.

trust him.. i've been in a deficit for a year. Dellusional that i'm still fat. 3-4 months into a surplus and i never looked better... Just have a plan. Weigh yourself under the same conditions etc. Try to keep your gains slow (0.5kg per week max (i try to gain 0.3kg per week)) because you _will_ get fat quickly.

#formerfatty

[MyEgoProblem]

You did a lot of great things here, but I think you'd be better off following the original program. When you begin removing/subbing things out it leaves holes in your training plan...you have a few holes. What are they? Look at the original template and then you can see for yourself. Some of the subs you made are acceptable and some aren't. Focus on the subs you made that aren't acceptable and then look at the things you're missing.

This was what I came up with before finding this post. I'm aware I'm lacking some forearm, ab, calf and most importantly direct hammies.

In fairness to me;-) the majority of beginner programs written by pros (see ss, sl, gslp ect) use back Squat and regular dead, and that's enough ham work from their perspectives.

I hoped using rdls with linear progression in a movement in and of its self and doubling up for regular deadlift warmup would be enough to not need leg curl adding in. I do love the dead :-)

Thx for your time :-)

[VanillaBearB]

For everyone struggling to find a bench tall enough for reverse flyes, here is your fix.

Grab the decline bench at your gym, place the "lower/head" bit on top of some blocks or steps.

You can then adjust the height and get yourself a perfectly horizontal, high, bench.

[JC-orginalbdass]

Sorry if this has been asked, but I'm not reading through all the pages.

You show this sample progression on the first page:
Monday-Squat-200, Bench-150
Wednesday-Romanian Deadlift-200, OHP-100
Friday-Squat-200, Bench-150
Weekend of rest
Monday-Romanian Deadlift-210, OHP-105
Wednesday-Squat-210, Bench-155
Friday-Romanian Deadlift-210, OHP-105

On the second week, you have two session of Romanian DL at a higher weight than the previous week, but only one session of squat at the higher weight. On the next week, would you do your first session with squat at 210 so that you get two sessions at the higher weight, or because it is a new week, would you bump up to 220?

Thanks

[connorpat1995]

add 10lb to every lower-body lift at the beginning of the week

[JC-orginalbdass]

add 10lb to every lower-body lift at the beginning of the week

Thank you. I'm not sure that quite answers my question though.

I understand the adding 10 lbs for lower, 5 lbs for upper each week, but the way the program is laid out, each week you end up with two types of sessions and one of the other, so one is always going to be short-changed, you know what I mean?