"Fierce 5" Novice Routine

[davisj3537]

You only increase reps if you can't make the weekly increase due to equipment.

E.g. If you don't have 2.5lb plates, for bench progression would be as follows.

Monday - 3 x 5 @ 135
Friday - 3 x 5 @ 135
Wed - 3 x 6 @ 135
Monday - 3 x 5 @ 145

Etc etc

Fixed that for you

Thanks. That helps. I definitely see what you mean on the muscle hiding fat through my own experience. To some degree I feel I look better now at 20 than I did at 15 last summer. It's just I've always been thin/skinny fat and this is the first time I've ever seen consistent muscle gains so I'm a little scared to change course. I.think I'm hiding the fat well. I'm think I'm going to need to cut once spring rolls around, just would like to ride this bulk out a few more weeks.

If I bulk for a few more weeks then cut, would it be an appropriate strategy to ride the Novice routine all the way through the cut, then switch to an intermediate when I resume bulking later in the summer?

Generally, you want to finish a novice program on a bulk. If your lifts can increase on a bulk you need to do that. If you cut for 2-3 months on the novice routine, then do a bulk on the novice routine to milk out the last of the gains. I really don't advise people to switch after a cut...before a cut is fine for the reasons wicked mentioned.

What do folk think of me doing a fat burning finisher at the end of each workout? Struggling to find the motivation to do cardio on my rest days, thinking I might do a bit better with something like this www t-nation.com/workouts/fast-abs-4-fat-burning-finishers

Ab exercises don't burn fat. Just do cardio on your lifting days after lifting if you want. All that ab stuff is a waste of time IMO.

Hey everybody,

I went on this program for nearly 4 months and overbulked so after stalling on some lifts I decided I'll finally go on a 3 month cut, despite not liking the fact that I won't gain any size/strength, in fact I'll probably lose both... but anyways my question was, is it a good idea to go on a deload before restarting this program on a cut? The main lifts started plauteauing just before the week I decided to go on a cut, though maybe i could've pushed through these plateaus if I kept eating the same amount and lifting hard (already skipped 1 workout in the name of the deload).

Deload

When deloading, do you lower the weights on all the exercises or only the core lifts? For example I'd like to keep working on the same pulldown weights but deload deadlift, squat etc.

Deload eveything

ALso I have some knee problems... whenever I want to stand up they hurt and this requires me to warm up quite a bit for squats. Not sure what the cause oculd be.... the pain disappeared for a while and then it came back recently when I actually got some rest from the gym (3-4 days of rest). The only change I did to the program was switching for leg curls and DLs instead of front squats and RDLs.

See your dr.

I get low back pain as well from squatting and deadlifting, though my form is not that bad. I'll try to post a vid somewhere.

And last but not least... I always wanted to increase my pull up strength because it's rather pathetic, and I didn't add them in in any way because I hoped the pulldowns and rows in this program would increase my arm and back strength sufficiently enough to be able to perform at least 4-5 pullups. Due to gaining alot of unnecessary weight I'm still not able to do them (not sure if I can even do 1 proper pullup tbh). This is evident in the fact that I barely gained any strength in the LAT pulldown exercise where my max is 8 reps @ 55 kg. I might've gotten stronger but I was never sure about my form and engaging my lats properly. So what do you suggest, I have a pullup bar at home so maybe I can add a daily routine just for this?

lat pulldown and rows are adequate for building these muscles. When you cut down you'll be surprised how much easier pullups are.

P.S.
Thanks davis for this routine and all the help!

Answers above

I missed my Wednesday workout as my Bodymax CF660 high/low pulley arrived. I bought the pulley so that I can do lat pulldowns and tricep pressdowns.

I just have two questions:

I missed workout A as this weeks is BAB. Should I just do B on Friday?

Also, I just tested the machine out doing bicep curls. I used about 20kg but it felt a lot heavier than 20kg barbell curls. Are machine curls supposed to feel heaver than free weight?

Do A on Friday. Every machine is different. Don't ever compare a machine or lever to free weight.

[RebornGC45]

Hey I started this routine from all pro and I was wondering why I've seen most of my gains from my lower body. It seems my lower body is growing faster than my upper. I don't see a whole lot of difference in my ipper body. Is it because of the rep range? (not in hypertrophy level)

[davisj3537]

Hey I started this routine from all pro and I was wondering why I've seen most of my gains from my lower body. It seems my lower body is growing faster than my upper. I don't see a whole lot of difference in my ipper body. Is it because of the rep range? (not in hypertrophy level)

It has nothing to do with rep ranges. Think about muscle size for a minute. Your legs are the largest muscles in your body...they're going to get the most growth by default. Upper body gains comes slow.

If you aren't seeing growth it isn't the program at fault. I've seen way too many progress pics of this program. Also realize after the first few months gains slow down a LOT. It takes a solid year of lifting to look like you lift in most cases.

[VanillaBearB]

Oh crap, my bad.

I've edited my original post, thanks for pointing that out!

[mreidie83]

Thanks again Davis. I should really just suck it up and do it on my rest days. I don't know why I thought an extra 2 - 3 minutes would make much of a difference lol.

[scoutkb]

Thanks. I have had one reset on all the major lifts. I'm probably a few weeks away from reset #2. Although you'll surprise yourself on how you get some you didn't think you would. What I always found helpful was on the weeks where you'd only lift once, if you stalled the first time, I always knew I had a good chance to get it on my 2nd try after 2 days rest. Many times that allowed me to keep progressing. Granted, I didn't increase weight that next week, but I didn't have to reset either.

As for calories, I chose not to track. I got frustrated in the front half of the year counting calories and not progressing while on All Pros that I just decided to eat and lift and make sure I was choosing plenty of protein sources. I was trying to simplify the process. As long as the weight on the bar was increasing and the weight on the scale was increasing ~1 lb per week I was ok with that. I'm starting to count again now as I transition closer to a cutting phase. It probably led to excess fat gains, but it also led to me seeing results for first time. Not sure I'd use the same strategy the next time, but I'm happy to see results.



Thanks. I'm still trying to learn the best way forward.

Appreciate you providing more background on your progress. Good luck to you on the cut.

[scoutkb]

Hey I started this routine from all pro and I was wondering why I've seen most of my gains from my lower body. It seems my lower body is growing faster than my upper. I don't see a whole lot of difference in my ipper body. Is it because of the rep range? (not in hypertrophy level)

Your upper body will grow, give it some time. I've only done 6 weeks but I can already tell everything is growing a little bit.

[JanterFixx]

Darn. First failed sets!

Today I had to raise the Incline Bench Press weight to a 65kg. (I use 45degree)

First set and I could tell it was tough, I barely managed my 4 and 5th rep. on 5th rep I was struggling but managed to get my hands up, no energy was left and I grunted for my spotter (brother) to notice this and help me put the barbell away. He didn't follow through and I had to do it myself.

All I described took like 2-3 seconds maximum (after getting 5th rep up)
but I managed to hurt my left upper back in the process (on the 5th rep). Second or two more it would been an injury! I was lucky.
I strecthed out a bit and understood I cannot continue with this weight:

a) I will fail it quite sure (I really have 100% of myself)
b) I will hurt myself even more trying to push the reps.
c) my form definitely is really bad - I don't know how exactly to be - shoulders, head, back, legs etc. Barbell was waving back a forth also = bad form.

I decreased the weight by 10kg to 55kg. Back was not stressed at all. Plus this time I told my spotter I could fail on every rep, if there will be ANY kind of sting in my back I will quit and he was ready. This was one of the lessons learned today. I know now what to tell my spotter. I usually don't say anything particular, but with heaviest loads and near-fail sets I must explain myself a bit more.

I was well-slept and ate a strong meal in the morning, so I just hit my plateu. Being on a cut definitely works against me a bit, but I had 2 days rest and felt strong.

--------

Biggest lesson I learned today that my Incline Bench Press form sucks a lot. Standard Bench is quite good I think, I have watched many videos and been taught my couple of gymrats, but no knowledge on Incline bench press.

I will watch videos and read a lot. I think with good form I could have conquered my sets, but my form on IBP is definitely the worst of all exercises I do.

Any advice on form or in general ?

---
also there was a positive side (was proud of 80kg front squats, they were nice and since I took 10kg off IBP I managed to add 1 more chin/pullup on every set )

[scoutkb]

Darn. First failed sets!

Today I had to raise the Incline Bench Press weight to a 65kg. (I use 45degree)

First set and I could tell it was tough, I barely managed my 4 and 5th rep. on 5th rep I was struggling but managed to get my hands up, no energy was left and I grunted for my spotter (brother) to notice this and help me put the barbell away. He didn't follow through and I had to do it myself.

All I described took like 2-3 seconds maximum (after getting 5th rep up)
but I managed to hurt my left upper back in the process (on the 5th rep). Second or two more it would been an injury! I was lucky.
I strecthed out a bit and understood I cannot continue with this weight:

a) I will fail it quite sure (I really have 100% of myself)
b) I will hurt myself even more trying to push the reps.
c) my form definitely is really bad - I don't know how exactly to be - shoulders, head, back, legs etc. Barbell was waving back a forth also = bad form.

I decreased the weight by 10kg to 55kg. Back was not stressed at all. Plus this time I told my spotter I could fail on every rep, if there will be ANY kind of sting in my back I will quit and he was ready. This was one of the lessons learned today. I know now what to tell my spotter. I usually don't say anything particular, but with heaviest loads and near-fail sets I must explain myself a bit more.

I was well-slept and ate a strong meal in the morning, so I just hit my plateu. Being on a cut definitely works against me a bit, but I had 2 days rest and felt strong.

--------

Biggest lesson I learned today that my Incline Bench Press form sucks a lot. Standard Bench is quite good I think, I have watched many videos and been taught my couple of gymrats, but no knowledge on Incline bench press.

I will watch videos and read a lot. I think with good form I could have conquered my sets, but my form on IBP is definitely the worst of all exercises I do.

Any advice on form or in general ?

---
also there was a positive side (was proud of 80kg front squats, they were nice and since I took 10kg off IBP I managed to add 1 more chin/pullup on every set )

I asked about incline bench form several weeks ago and was told it's basically the same as flat bench. (retract scapula, keep tight, push off rear delts, keep slight lower back arch, etc.) I think it takes practice to get that on incline. I tend to loose the tightness right after bar lift off so I have to re-adjust and make sure my scapula is retracted. Seems to be working for me but it's still not fluid. I've gone up from 115 to 150 lbs today with no resets. Great progress on your front squat, I'm struggling with 120 lbs. My upper back seems to be my weak point there.

[RKintaudi]

As you may know, I'm still working out at Planet Fitness, *sigh*. Since that's the case, I've decided to replace the incline bench press with the overhead press. Would you recommend a seated overhead press with a smith machine or a standing overhead press with a barbell.

Thanks.

EDIT: I made the switch last night to standing overhead press and started fairly light in my opinion (85 lbs). I think I'll keep it light until I learn more about proper form, etc.

[VanillaBearB]

As you may know, I'm still working out at Planet Fitness, *sigh*. Since that's the case, I've decided to replace the incline bench press with the overhead press. Would you recommend a seated overhead press with a smith machine or a standing overhead press with a barbell.

Thanks.

EDIT: I made the switch last night to standing overhead press and started fairly light in my opinion (85 lbs). I think I'll keep it light until I learn more about proper form, etc.

Go with standing, better for your core.

[RKintaudi]

Go with standing, better for your core.

Noted, thanks bro.

[mietz]

I've been really enjoying this programme..

My question, I have a very weak back, would it be ok to add an extra day of isolation exercises for the back, or would this cause muscle imbalances? (I'm a beginner at strength training.)

And is it ok to train more than 3 days in a week?

Thx.

[davisj3537]

I've been really enjoying this programme..

My question, I have a very weak back, would it be ok to add an extra day of isolation exercises for the back, or would this cause muscle imbalances? (I'm a beginner at strength training.)

And is it ok to train more than 3 days in a week?

Thx.

Those are both covered in the FAQs.

[mietz]

Those are both covered in the FAQs.

It says:
"Can I run this program 4 days per week? No! One of the most basic rules (IMO) of bodybuilding is not to work out the same muscles 2 days in a row."

I wasn't planning to work out the same muscles two days in a row.

I was wondering if it would be ok to train one day, and then take one day off without two days off over the weekend (m, w, f, sun, tue, th, sat, m etc.)?

Thx.

[davisj3537]

It says:
"Can I run this program 4 days per week? No! One of the most basic rules (IMO) of bodybuilding is not to work out the same muscles 2 days in a row."

I wasn't planning to work out the same muscles two days in a row.

I was wondering if it would be ok to train one day, and then take one day off without two days off over the weekend (m, w, f, sun, tue, th, sat, m etc.)?

Thx.

You can do whatever you like honestly and it might work better for you, but if I thought it worked better that way I'd have designed it that way. That extra rest day is important man.

[connorpat1995]

I was wondering if it would be ok to train one day, and then take one day off without two days off over the weekend (m, w, f, sun, tue, th, sat, m etc.)?

no one's ever tried it for fierce 5 as far as I know, but people have done it on ICF and Starting strength; they stalled more quickly and in the case of every ICF trainee who I've seen do it they lost progress

[jodia037]

Just completed my first week of Fierce 5 and I love it. Its what I have been looking for.

I wanted to know if it was ok to swap the Romanian deadlift for the Stiff-leg deadlift?

The reason I ask is because I think I may be doing it wrong, even though I have watched the bodybuilding video a bunch of times. I don't know how much flex my knees are supposed to have.

[davisj3537]

Just completed my first week of Fierce 5 and I love it. Its what I have been looking for.

I wanted to know if it was ok to swap the Romanian deadlift for the Stiff-leg deadlift?

The reason I ask is because I think I may be doing it wrong, even though I have watched the bodybuilding video a bunch of times. I don't know how much flex my knees are supposed to have.

[acrobat2000]

People on this routine end up being into Cardio by the end of it. I think a lot of people naturally like to go to the gym 4-5 times a week, but this routine is only MWF so people end up bored and doing a lot of running workouts on Tues and Thursday.

I've been doing a 40 minute sprint HIIT exercise routine on tuesday and Thursday I do like 2 or 3 hour slow run. Sometimes I do like 20 min HIIT MWF workouts after weights if I'm not busy or tired.

[davisj3537]

Cardio is good for you. Seems like a win win to me.

[whackybeanz]

Managed to clear my Incline Bench after failing it the previous session. Awesome! Even though it was pretty tough, I'll increase the weights and go for the next increment.

Got a question regarding front squats:
(1) Is it normal to be slightly bruised around the delts area because of the weights pressing on it when you're performing front squats? There's no visible bruising. I only feel this pain when I apply pressure on it (and it's more apparent when the bar goes on the spot), so I'm not sure if I should be concerned about it at all.

[davisj3537]

Managed to clear my Incline Bench after failing it the previous session. Awesome! Even though it was pretty tough, I'll increase the weights and go for the next increment.

Got a question regarding front squats:
(1) Is it normal to be slightly bruised around the delts area because of the weights pressing on it when you're performing front squats? There's no visible bruising. I only feel this pain when I apply pressure on it (and it's more apparent when the bar goes on the spot), so I'm not sure if I should be concerned about it at all.

Good for you! The pain is normal at first. Once your delts develop (soon) it will get better.

[jodia037]

Thanks for posting the video. The side view helps me see the flexing and positioning. I will try to take view of myself going through the motions so I can get feedback from you.

[davisj3537]

Thanks for posting the video. The side view helps me see the flexing and positioning. I will try to take view of myself going through the motions so I can get feedback from you.

Sounds good man.

[Mbenson122]

The program looks great. There is a lot of info in this thread.

I would classify myself as more fit than strong/muscular. I am currently doing a mixture of weight lifting, bodyweight exercises and running. No longer progressing as much as I would like to strength-wise and thinking of switching over to Fierce 5. Planning on running 2-3 miles on the off days.

Couple quick questions:
I would like to continue doing some bodyweight exercises to maintain overall fitness. What would be the best way to do this? Should I use bodyweight in order to warm-up, do a morning/evening split with 10-15 minutes of bodyweight in the morning and Fierce 5 in the evening, or some other option?


Also, when I started getting back in shape, I started out doing P90X. I know that the Beachbody programs aren't popular on these forums, but it helped me when starting out.

I've graduated beyond P90X, but one of the concepts that I still follow is a recovery week of lower intensity workouts. if I try to workout for more than 6 weeks at high intensity, I start to need more than one day off between workouts. The minor aches and pains just start to linger for a longer period of time.

It is necessary/possible to incorporate a recovery week into Fierce 5?

Thanks

[connorpat1995]

^^
general strength built from weight training will carry over to bodyweight exercises. If you want to pratice them specifically weighted dips, chins and inverted rows are acceptable subs.

You're referring to a deload. See here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121391461
the recommended method is to take 5 continuous days off

[Mbenson122]

^^
general strength built from weight training will carry over to bodyweight exercises. If you want to pratice them specifically weighted dips, chins and inverted rows are acceptable subs.

You're referring to a deload. See here:
//forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121391461
the recommended method is to take 5 continuous days off

Thanks. I was incorrectly thinking that a deload was 'as needed'. Looking over the deload thread, it appears that it can also be a regularly scheduled deload and you don't need wait until your body tells you to deload.

[mietz]

no one's ever tried it for fierce 5 as far as I know, but people have done it on ICF and Starting strength; they stalled more quickly and in the case of every ICF trainee who I've seen do it they lost progress

Ok, thx, that makes sense.

[ratemahworkout]

I had sore low back after squating 180lbs today. After I finished bench press I still had sore lower back and I felt I couldn't do the Pendlay Rows as they are the most taxing exercise out of them all ( along with RDL in workout B)


Was it a wrong idea that I substituted pendlay rows with cable rows with long horizontal bar ( for pulling obviously )