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  1. #31
    ΑΝΑΚΛΑ ΑΚΔΑΑΘΩΙΩΙ Quibble's Avatar
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    I would like to point out that OP's 'guide' is full of misinformation and rubbish...


    Go forth my hairless brothers, read the wisdom of my favorite biochemist.

    http://raypeat.com/articles/

    cliffs:

    minimize dietary intake of polyunsaturated fats, starch, tryptophan and cysteine rich proteins, and iron. raise intake of saturated fat, glycine rich protein, calcium, and fructose.
    Control the coinage and the courts — let the rabble have the rest.



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  2. #32
    I am the α and the ω xRedStaRx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Quibble View Post
    I would like to point out that OP's 'guide' is full of misinformation and rubbish...


    Go forth my hairless brothers, read the wisdom of my favorite biochemist.

    http://raypeat.com/articles/

    cliffs:

    minimize dietary intake of polyunsaturated fats, starch, tryptophan and cysteine rich proteins, and iron. raise intake of saturated fat, glycine rich protein, calcium, and fructose.
    Minimize dietary intake of polyunsaturated fats? Increase fructose? Please go, this isn't a cancer rehabilitation diet thread.

    I am not advocating new methods to treat hair loss.

    Most of these treatments have been around for a very long time. We know for a fact that they work, and we know why they work.

    If medical literature doesn't cut it for you, I'm sure there are tons of anecdotal evidence either way.
    PhD in Hairloss bro-science
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  3. #33
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    Cliffs of this thread: Jump on Fin.

    Nice work mr redstar man, surprised you don't pursue a career in this chit.
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  4. #34
    Registered User Octaviankid's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Quibble View Post
    I would like to point out that OP's 'guide' is full of misinformation and rubbish...


    Go forth my hairless brothers, read the wisdom of my favorite biochemist.

    http://raypeat.com/articles/

    cliffs:

    minimize dietary intake of polyunsaturated fats, starch, tryptophan and cysteine rich proteins, and iron. raise intake of saturated fat, glycine rich protein, calcium, and fructose.
    I love Peats work. Though I'm using the big three, I've definitely noticed benefits once I started implementing some of his suggestions. The recommendations in this thread are great and should help a lot of guys. However, I'm still of the belief that there are a number of things that can be the root cause of AGA as opposed to it just being DHT.
    You a fan of Danny Roddy?
    Last edited by Octaviankid; 12-14-2013 at 02:09 PM.
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  5. #35
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    good stuff! repped!
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  6. #36
    Registered User cstchanman's Avatar
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    in...
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  7. #37
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    How bad do you think hair gels and styling products are for the hair? I know that Alcohol in the substances are very bad for the hair but do you think excess or constant use of hair gels/styling products can cause PERMANENT hair loss?

    What's your theory OP?
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  8. #38
    Registered User wickedman's Avatar
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    Damn Quibble, you successfully rustled my jimmies, troll master.
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  9. #39
    I am the α and the ω xRedStaRx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DaHurst View Post
    How bad do you think hair gels and styling products are for the hair? I know that Alcohol in the substances are very bad for the hair but do you think excess or constant use of hair gels/styling products can cause PERMANENT hair loss?

    What's your theory OP?
    Hair styling products should not generally cause hair loss, assuming excessive amounts of product is not used to block scalp pores, this is especially true with gels and oils.

    Although they can increase hair breakage, but nothing permanent.
    PhD in Hairloss bro-science
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  10. #40
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    5 star thread
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  11. #41
    Registered User 1hardgainer's Avatar
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    I tried propecia (finasteride) a few years ago. I heard you need to take it for at least a year to see results and that shedding may increase the first 3-4 months. I noticed I had some pretty bad shedding while on that stuff and ended up quitting after 11 months. Even at the 11 month mark I noticed some bad shedding. My scalp was still itchy as usual, which probably meant that there was still a lot of DHT in my scalp. Theoretically, a drug like propecia should work for EVERYONE who is experiencing DHT related hairloss. I don't know why the stuff never worked for me. Should I try again? Should I switch to dutasteride instead? Would dutasteride work even if finasteride didn't?
    Last edited by 1hardgainer; 12-14-2013 at 05:28 PM.
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  12. #42
    I am the α and the ω xRedStaRx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 1hardgainer View Post
    I tried propecia (finasteride) a few years ago. I heard you need to take it for at least a year to see results and that shedding may increase the first 3-4 months. I noticed I had some pretty bad shedding while on that stuff and ended up quitting after 11 months. Even at the 11 month mark I noticed some bad shedding. My scalp was still itchy as usual, which probably meant that there was still a lot of DHT in my scalp. Theoretically, a drug like propecia should work for EVERYONE who is experiencing DHT related hairloss. I don't know why the stuff never worked for me. Should I try again? Should I switch to dutasteride instead? Would dutasteride work even if finasteride didn't?
    Doses? Did you take progress pictures? Are you balding?
    PhD in Hairloss bro-science
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  13. #43
    Not AfricanAmerican (srs) JayC24's Avatar
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    in on first page

    0.5mg ever other day of propecia, 5% minox, and keto shampoo crew checking in.
    Type 1 ginger that took MT2 for 5+ years and now getting mistaken for African descent crew:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=167225761

    Finasteride or die crew:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=172813221
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  14. #44
    Registered User 1hardgainer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by xRedStaRx View Post
    Doses? Did you take progress pictures? Are you balding?

    Didn't take progress pics. I noticed I had been thinning for about 5-6 years before running finasteride. I got a prescription from a dermatologist for propecia and I forgot what the dosage was. I pretty much followed whatever the recommended dosage was. I've been off propecia for over 5 years. Hairloss has been progressing obviously. Although I noticed increased shedding during most of the time I was on propecia, I'm not sure if the propecia increased shedding or if I would have shed that much anyway. One thing I know for certain is that the finasteride didn't slow down or stop my hairloss at all. Do you think dutasteride would work for me? I always figured that if fin didn't work, there's no hope for me lol
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  15. #45
    I am the α and the ω xRedStaRx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 1hardgainer View Post
    Didn't take progress pics. I noticed I had been thinning for about 5-6 years before running finasteride. I got a prescription from a dermatologist for propecia and I forgot what the dosage was. I pretty much followed whatever the recommended dosage was. I've been off propecia for over 5 years. Hairloss has been progressing obviously. Although I noticed increased shedding during most of the time I was on propecia, I'm not sure if the propecia increased shedding or if I would have shed that much anyway. One thing I know for certain is that the finasteride didn't slow down or stop my hairloss at all. Do you think dutasteride would work for me? I always figured that if fin didn't work, there's no hope for me lol
    If your dermatologist diagnosed you with AGA, then you should have probably stayed with finasteride. This is all assuming you do have AGA. Again, at the very least, it would have slowed things down, significantly.

    Hair sheds are very normal, sheds are not the same as hair loss. Normally, hair that falls come back, but hair that is miniaturized through androgen damage, does not.

    Some people do not begin to see results except after a year and a half, and a lot see best results after two years. This was also shown in one of the studies in the OP.

    Normally, I would suggest you to go back on finasteride and see where it takes you from there, you will most likely not lose more hair than otherwise. If things do not get better after at least one year, then re-assess the situation and seek other modes of treatment. You might or might not be a good responder to finasteride, but we still do not know that for sure.

    Take progress pictures this time, your eyes can and will deceive you.
    PhD in Hairloss bro-science
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  16. #46
    Registered User 1hardgainer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by xRedStaRx View Post
    If your dermatologist diagnosed you with AGA, then you should have probably stayed with finasteride. This is all assuming you do have AGA. Again, at the very least, it would have slowed things down, significantly.

    Hair sheds are very normal, sheds are not the same as hair loss. Normally, hair that falls come back, but hair that is miniaturized through androgen damage, does not.

    Some people do not begin to see results except after a year and a half, and a lot see best results after two years. This was also shown in one of the studies in the OP.

    Normally, I would suggest you to go back on finasteride and see where it takes you from there, you will most likely not lose more hair than otherwise. If things do not get better after at least one year, then re-assess the situation and seek other modes of treatment. You might or might not be a good responder to finasteride, but we still do not know that for sure.

    Take progress pictures this time, your eyes can and will deceive you.

    Thanks for the info. From what you're saying it sounds like I would be better off trying finasteride again for at least 1.5-2 years rather than trying to jump on dutasteride. The dermatologists I've seen in the past seemed to know very little about hairloss. They seemed to be more focused on skin cancer, skin disorders (which is understandable) and didn't really care about cosmetic issues like male pattern baldness. Funny thing is I was prescribed finasteride but I don't think I was ever officially diagnosed with androgenetic alopecia. I know for a fact that I do have AA, though. Hair used to be super thick and severely thinned out over the past 11 years (I'm in my thirties)
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  17. #47
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to xRedStaRx again
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  18. #48
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    Great work Red!
    It drives me nuts when people advocate "derp-derp polyunsaturated fats will cause MPB" and similar nonsense. Finasteride and ketocozanol has worked great for maintaining for me (plus a really good ht). People have ascribed unproven cures to hair loss since the beginnings of civilization. As early as ancient Egypt, men were worried about losing their hair.
    Meet Sekhmet, the diety that early miscers would pray to:

    If you were losing your hair, you'd purchase a tiny statue of Sekhmet, or one of his helper spirits, and pray to it for a full head of hair.

    In 1553 BC, the first prescription for hair loss was the Ebers Papyrus:

    Specifically, it tells the recipient to mix iron oxide, lead, onions, alabaster and honey. The mixture was to be swallowed after making an invocation to Atum-Ra, the sun diety.

    Then there's Hippocrates, the father of modern medicine:

    In 420 BC, he introduced the "first" version of minoxidil: mix opium, horseradish and pigeon droppings to the head. Although the opium helped him get over it, he was dismayed that his concoction didn't work, and so he recorded the first surgical solution - castration. In his writings, he states, "Eunuchs are not affected by gout, nor do they become bald." We know today that this is due to the absence of testosterone, which is normally converted into dyhydrotestosterone or DHT – the active ingredient in baldness. In March 1995, Duke University researchers came to the conclusion that " . . . while castration may be a cure, it is not commercially acceptable."

    People pretty much just wore wigs or wrapped linens around their heads after that, and generally accepted that their hair loss was a result of their sins and disfavor from God.
    In the 1800s, it was the heyday of the “snake oil” salesmen, and for the next hundred years bottles of hair loss cures with names like “Mrs. Allen’s World Hair Restorer,” “Ayers Hair Vigour,” “East India Oil Hair Restoration,” “Skookum Root Hair Growth,” “Westphall Auxiliator,” “Imperial Hair Regenerator” and the ever popular “Barry’s Tricopherous” were sold to hopeful buyers seeking a cure for their hair loss from “modern medicine.”

    Over a hundred years later, this same kind of swindling continues. The names of the products have changed to things like Helsinki Formula, Foliplexx, Revivogen, Nioxin, Kevis, and Fabao to name just a few. The same outlandish performance promises fool vulnerable consumers. Remember, they're not required by the FDA to prove that they work.

    In Victorian England, men would apply cold India tea to the scalp, followed by rubbing lemon juice on it. Around this time period, literature began circulating that hair loss was the result of wearing hats. The claim was that follicles need to "breathe".
    In 1922, patient advocate Bernarr MacFadden wrote: “There is more quackery rampant in connection with hair and scalp care—both by the medical profession and by drug and lotion manufacturers—than there is in any other specialty ever devised for the exploitation of ailing humans.”
    Finally, Merke introduced the Thermocap Treatment device claiming to stimulate circulation, cleanse clogged-up pores, and nourish dormant hair bulbs with heat and blue lights coming out of a blue light bulb.


    The general point of my post is that people believed all kinds of things before the advent of evidence made proven by using the scientific method and peer review. It's so sad that so many men go full potato when they begin losing their hair, and rather than getting on the big 3, they seek out chinese herbs, make dietary changes, etc. Personally, whenever someone states that "such-and-such" prevents hair loss, my immediate response is to ask which peer-reviewed journal was the study documented in, and if it's not available there, where on the NHS government website is the evidence documented. The crap evidence is NEVER published in a journal, advertisements are always referring to "a" study, but good luck finding it.
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  19. #49
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    pls post ur book elsewhere
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    Originally Posted by xRedStaRx View Post
    Hair styling products should not generally cause hair loss, assuming excessive amounts of product is not used to block scalp pores, this is especially true with gels and oils.

    Although they can increase hair breakage, but nothing permanent.
    That's what I thought but in my case I'm pretty sure hair gel/products led to dandruff(on a few occasions). Which leads me to my next question is would dandruff cause permanent hair loss? I know it would obviously affect hair loss once the dandruff occurs for obvious reasons but for long term loss?



    Also, slightly off-topic what's your opinion on masturbation and hair loss. It seems to be a common myth on the misc and elsewhere that masterbation could promote slight hair loss. Thoughts?


    PS, thanks again. I like to think we are a bunch of "brotologists" on the verge of finding a cure for the greatest disease in mans history(hair loss)
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    Originally Posted by 1hardgainer View Post
    Thanks for the info. From what you're saying it sounds like I would be better off trying finasteride again for at least 1.5-2 years rather than trying to jump on dutasteride. The dermatologists I've seen in the past seemed to know very little about hairloss. They seemed to be more focused on skin cancer, skin disorders (which is understandable) and didn't really care about cosmetic issues like male pattern baldness. Funny thing is I was prescribed finasteride but I don't think I was ever officially diagnosed with androgenetic alopecia. I know for a fact that I do have AA, though. Hair used to be super thick and severely thinned out over the past 11 years (I'm in my thirties)
    This is most likely why finasteride did not work for you. Your hair loss may not be androgenic in the first place.

    I'd still get checked by a professional first before deciding how it should be treated, you should not be taking medicine for the wrong reasons.

    Normally, AA is relieved by topical corticosteroids which reduce any inflammation accompanied by it. Steroid shots tend to improve hair condition in a little less than a year. But these treatments do not work the same everyone They barely do anything for a lot people, there is no real cure for AA.
    PhD in Hairloss bro-science
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    Originally Posted by DaHurst View Post
    That's what I thought but in my case I'm pretty sure hair gel/products led to dandruff(on a few occasions). Which leads me to my next question is would dandruff cause permanent hair loss? I know it would obviously affect hair loss once the dandruff occurs for obvious reasons but for long term loss?

    Also, slightly off-topic what's your opinion on masturbation and hair loss. It seems to be a common myth on the misc and elsewhere that masterbation could promote slight hair loss. Thoughts?

    PS, thanks again. I like to think we are a bunch of "brotologists" on the verge of finding a cure for the greatest disease in mans history(hair loss)
    I've already covered this in the ketoconazole section and one of the FAQ questions on sebum production.

    Dandruff does not cause hair loss, but it's a byproduct from factors contributing to hair loss.

    Here is what happens, your sebaceous glands on the scalp releases sebum, which is a form of fatty oils. Sebum creates a perfect environment for fungus and bacteria to grow, since they require fat to survive. In turn, their numbers increase exponentially and causing massive amounts of dandruff to form, this also leads to irritation and scalp inflammation, triggering an immune response, and in turn, disturbing follicular hair cycles.

    Ketoconazole shampoos are anti-fungal and anti-androgenic. They kill off any foreign proteins on scalp skin, and decrease sebum production rates. Which provides healthy grounds for hair to grow normally. It should be included in any males's shower regime, since it is useful for more than balding.

    Highly unlikely. But then again, it's unpractical to conduct long term studies controlling for masturbation, since their would be much more uncontrolled variables at play. But on paper, masturbation should not affect hormone production, at least not long enough to cause problems. It does seem to raise prolactin levels following orgasm, and prolactin has been strongly linked with hair loss. But we cannot put that as a possibility, since intercourse produces almost four times the amount of prolactin compared to masturbation. Any effects on hair stemming from orgasms in general should be insignificant. The process of hair loss takes years to develop under consistent conditions such as androgen levels. Any short term spikes in hormone levels should not exhibit folliular damage.
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    Get a wig/hairtransplant or buzz it /thread
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    Repped for life

    Have a NW1 hairline but i want my juvenile hairline back i'm on Fin/Dust/Minox/Keto and Spiro 55. Hair is allot thicker and looks aesthetic as phuck now.
    Will use this for the rest of my life, total costs? A measly 300$ a year.
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    Originally Posted by ProteinEater View Post
    Finastride ruined my life. STAY AWAY FROM THESE DRUGS BRO AND FCK YOU OP FOR SUGGESTING IT



    Took finasteride for 6-7 years starting at age 25, was the healthiest I have ever been at the time, extremely fit and athletic, gym 4-5 times per week with a body I would kill for these days! Out of nowhere I became permanently dizzy/off balance and was extremely fatigued, eyes were so sore and vision went downhill, frequent urination and poor sleep. Doctor assumed it was viral and that I would improve with time - didn't happen. After 6 months of being exhausted, dizzy and feeling drunk I also became extremely anxious and started having massive panic attacks and horrific night terrors/dreams.

    Anxiety and depression took over and I was forced to stop work for 4 months. My doctor put it all down to stress depite my insistance that I had been very happy and had no stressors at the time it started. I did manage to have my doctor refer me to a neurologist who ordered an MRI to rule out MS. Results came back negative and the specialist told me rather bluntly to "get on with my life and stop wasting my (or his?) time with tests". I have also managed to get basic blood tests annually which always show extremely high liver function. Doctor can find no explanation for it, I had an ultrasound that showed numerous nodules on the liver but was told that was of no concern - "we will just keep monitoring it". I have previously asked for hormone testing but my doctor refuses and told me that that was usually only for women.

    Then started the rollercoaster of antidepressants and psychologists insisting that something major had triggered my stress. After constantly pushing my doctor on various theories and for various testing and insisting that something was 'not right' my medical records are now labelled OCD, Hypochondria and "seeks assurance". I was forced to go the route of many different antidepressants to which I always have extreme reactions, but finally 3 years ago found one that I tolerated the side effects long enough that I now seem permanently "hooked" on it. Thousands of dollars of therapy and counselling failed to have any significant affect on my anxiety.

    Earlier this year I thought my symptoms were starting to get back under control, the anxiety was less, I was sleeping better and concentration was good despite still lacking energy. About a month ago I started rapidly going downhill again and now seem to be nearly back where I started. That is what prompted me to start googling my symptoms and I came across the "Propecia link" and the many people with similar symptoms as mine. I had never heard of it. When my symptons first started I remember thinking there may have been a connection and that was when I stopped the Propecia as it was the only medication I was on at the time. I also remember asking my doctor if it could have been a cause (in my mind thinking it messes with hormones etc so was a possibility) but was quickly dismissed by my doc.

    So 7 years after stopping Propecia I am no closer to feeling "normal" again. I no longer socialize and have a life that is not recognisable to that of the person I used to be. I feel like I have missed my 30's and the opportunity to start a family and live a normal life. I look at other people with envy that it is so easy for them to go out and enjoy themselves and live life. After working all day I am so stressed and have no energy to consider doing anything else and by the end of each week I am so exhausted and uptight that I spend the weekend trying to relax and preparing myself for the following week. At least finding this site has given me some hope again and spurred me on to not give up just yet.

    http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/vi...t=6698&start=0

    Propecia help not even once.
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    Very helpful and concise thread. If this doesn't warrant mod reps, I don't know what does.
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    Originally Posted by BrunoTheBandit View Post
    11) What dose did you take (eg. 1 mg/day, 1 mg every other day etc.)?
    Cannot remember but it was once a day dose. Presume 1mg although thought there was a '5' in there somewhere??? Will need to check.
    lol
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    anything wrong with the Fincar brand of fin? very cheap for 5mg tabs etc - http://www.inhousepharmacy.biz/p-178...incar-5mg.aspx

    do u think splitting a 5mg tablet into 10 parts is a big problem lol? would like 0.5mg ED, surely a slight difference in daily dosages isn't a problem? thanks mate repped.
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    OP what are your thoughts on Topical Spiro?

    Specifically as an alternative to finasteride.
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