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  1. #1
    Registered User fellfromthesun's Avatar
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    So... dendrobium was just a lie?

    Now that DS's shenanigans have been exposed, what to think about dendrobium? Is it safe to say it's not the main reason Craze was so "effective"? Was it just the ETH and a slight caffeine boost?

    What about pure dendrobium extract and other supplements with it? Are they worth the money? I've never used Craze (early reviews which alluded to meth-like effects made me reconsider my decision of trying it) but I've been following the debacle closely and there was a time I was considering to buy the extract (whose effects are said to be weaker than Craze). I'm not so sure now. Opinions?
    Last edited by fellfromthesun; 10-17-2013 at 05:40 AM.
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    MauiAthletics.com powercage's Avatar
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    Scivation sells bulk dendrobium if you would like to see how it works
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    I'm pretty sure your wrong, but care to elaborate...

    Disclaimer: The above post is my personal opinion and does not represent the official position of any company or entity. It does not constitute medical advice.
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    Able to speak freely Segansational's Avatar
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    Actually interested to see what others who've taken dendrobium supps (Craze excluded) have to say.
    Back in action.
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    Registered User fellfromthesun's Avatar
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    Any opinions?
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    Originally Posted by powercage View Post
    Scivation sells bulk dendrobium if you would like to see how it works
    Or doesn't, for that matter.
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    Originally Posted by fellfromthesun View Post
    Now that DS's shenanigans have been exposed, what to think about dendrobium? Is it safe to say it's not the main reason Craze was so "effective"? Was it just the ETH and a slight caffeine boost?

    What about pure dendrobium extract and other supplements with it? Are they worth the money? I've never used Craze (early reviews which alluded to meth-like effects made me reconsider my decision of trying it) but I've been following the debacle closely and there was a time I was considering to buy the extract (whose effects are said to be weaker than Craze). I'm not so sure now. Opinions?
    This whole CRAZE thing is nonsense. Whether or not ETH was in the PWO, is has been indicated that they found TRACE amounts. TRACE being the key word. The amounts were MINISCULE and certainly not enough to create the effect that Craze gives alone. I have no taken Dendrobium on it's own, but I am sure that it plays a big factor in the Craze effect. I am also sure that ETH played a role too, but not nearly enough of a role to make the difference.
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    Originally Posted by fellfromthesun View Post
    Any opinions?
    You can buy bulk dendrobium for $12. (90 caps)

    12 bucks.

    It's a small investment to see for yourself if it works. Then, and only then will you be able to tell if it's "worth" it.
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    I got sent a free bottle of that primaforce dendrobium. Tried to be objective but I didn't notice a thing. Worse yet scivation/primaforce wouldn't even tell me what it was supposed to so I couldn't even get a placebo effect out of it even.

    Supposedly it has to be standardized for dendramine or something according to Cooper iirc which the primaforce bottle isn't. Wasted enough time with it personally
    phaggy opinions+certainty=douchebag status
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    Originally Posted by BenBlue View Post
    This whole CRAZE thing is nonsense. Whether or not ETH was in the PWO, is has been indicated that they found TRACE amounts. TRACE being the key word. The amounts were MINISCULE and certainly not enough to create the effect that Craze gives alone. I have no taken Dendrobium on it's own, but I am sure that it plays a big factor in the Craze effect. I am also sure that ETH played a role too, but not nearly enough of a role to make the difference.

    FYI to those who think "traces" were found - 21 to 35 mg is not traces, and is in fact smack dab in the middle of the predicted therapeutic range
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    Originally Posted by Diesel0022 View Post
    Or doesn't, for that matter.
    lol this.

    can't blame scivation for selling what people "want", but all the other companies that included it in their formulas and claim it to have all the same affects as Craze had...LULZ
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to VaughnTrue again.
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    Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    lol this.

    can't blame scivation for selling what people "want", but all the other companies that included it in their formulas and claim it to have all the same affects as Craze had...LULZ
    Got a really good deal on ANS Ritual/Dilate several months ago and I still haven't opened the Ritual, which obviously has dendrobium. Hopefully it won't be a let down, but the rest of the profile looks pretty good in my opinion.
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    Originally Posted by fitnfirm View Post
    FYI to those who think "traces" were found - 21 to 35 mg is not traces, and is in fact smack dab in the middle of the predicted therapeutic range
    21 to 35 mg found in what? A full container of Craze? Or per scoop? What article did you get these numbers from? I would be interested to read it.
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    Originally Posted by BenBlue View Post
    21 to 35 mg found in what? A full container of Craze? Or per scoop? What article did you get these numbers from? I would be interested to read it.
    per serving. Its out there in the tests that were made public, that you failed to read, some of them just published and in the news.
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    Gettin' Big Now... VaughnTrue's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BoilerUpIndy View Post
    Got a really good deal on ANS Ritual/Dilate several months ago and I still haven't opened the Ritual, which obviously has dendrobium. Hopefully it won't be a let down, but the rest of the profile looks pretty good in my opinion.
    if the rest of the formula is legit, you should enjoy the product. the dendrobium shouldn't make much, if any, difference.
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    Originally Posted by fitnfirm View Post
    per serving. Its out there in the tests that were made public, that you failed to read, some of them just published and in the news.
    7.1mg/g was stated on one test.
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    Originally Posted by fitnfirm View Post
    per serving. Its out there in the tests that were made public, that you failed to read, some of them just published and in the news.
    Actually, none of the articles that I DID read mentioned anything but "TRACE AMOUNTS". I read a few articles and none of them mentioned an actual amount. So again, I ask, what article? Where is the link? All sarcasm aside, I would be interested to read this article.
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    Originally Posted by BenBlue View Post
    21 to 35 mg found in what? A full container of Craze? Or per scoop? What article did you get these numbers from? I would be interested to read it.

    Here is one I had handy, the rest are spread around and I dont have time to fish right now.


    Identification and quantitation of N,α-diethylphenethylamine in preworkout supplements sold via the Internet



    Abstract

    Shortly after we reported the seizure of the amphetamine derivative N,α-diethylphenethylamine (NADEP) as bulk powder, we have identified NADEP in preworkout supplements branded as “Craze” and sold via the Internet. A gas chromatography–mass spectrometry method was validated and used to quantitate NADEP in the supplements. The authentic NADEP sample of the previous study was used as the reference standard for quantitative analysis after purity assay using quantitative nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy. Using these methods, NADEP concentrations in two Craze supplements (Berry Lemonade Flavor and Candy Grape Flavor) were quantitated as 0.40 and 0.44 %, respectively. With the label suggesting a serving size of 5.3–5.8 g, this was equivalent to about 23 mg of NADEP. NADEP was patented in 1988 by Knoll Pharmaceuticals with claims of psychoactive effects (e.g., cognitive enhancement and pain tolerance). For unknown reasons, the compound was never developed into a medicine, and important data about its effects and risks are lacking. Nevertheless, the patent suggested an intended oral dose range of 10–150 mg with a target of 30 mg. Therefore, it could be assumed that NADEP was added to the supplements intentionally for its pharmacological effects without adequate labeling. Because NADEP is a structural analog of methamphetamine in which the two methyl groups are only replaced by ethyl groups, it is possible that the toxicity of NADEP is similar to that of methamphetamine. Thus, supplements containing NADEP should be removed from the market immediately. In countries where NADEP is not regulated as a controlled substance, it should be enforced under the Medicines Act.

    http://link.springer.com/article/10....419-013-0205-6
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    Originally Posted by BenBlue View Post
    21 to 35 mg found in what? A full container of Craze? Or per scoop? What article did you get these numbers from? I would be interested to read it.
    Not sure why people can't just answer without personal insults. Anyway, here's the main one where they say it is per serving.:

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1.../dta.1578/full
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    Originally Posted by newjeep75 View Post
    Not sure why people can't just answer without personal insults. Anyway, here's the main one where they say it is per serving.:

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1.../dta.1578/full
    Thanks for the link. Not sure where you saw the insult. I was just fishing for some info that I clearly missed. Wasn't insulting anyone, sorry if it came across that way.
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    [QUOTE=BenBlue;1149540583]Thanks for the link. Not sure where you saw the insult. I was just fishing for some info that I clearly missed. Wasn't insulting anyone, sorry if it came across that way.[/QUOTE

    Oh wait, you were probably referring to the other posters insults. I'm a little slow this morning.
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    Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    if the rest of the formula is legit, you should enjoy the product. the dendrobium shouldn't make much, if any, difference.
    This ^^^

    I finished off a full tub of Ritual a few months back. Great PWO with a LEGIT formula, but if you're expecting "Craze Like Effects" you will be dissapointed.
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    Originally Posted by BenBlue View Post
    Thanks for the link. Not sure where you saw the insult. I was just fishing for some info that I clearly missed. Wasn't insulting anyone, sorry if it came across that way.
    I meant insult against you, not by you.
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    Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    if the rest of the formula is legit, you should enjoy the product. the dendrobium shouldn't make much, if any, difference.
    This.

    It is a well-rounded formula and they just so happened to take advantage of the hype around dendrobium when it was produced.

    It's a top five pre-workout for me.
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    Aside from the links already provided there is a thread in the supp science section that discusses PEA and its derivatives that is very interesting and has some relevance to this.
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    Originally Posted by BenBlue View Post
    This whole CRAZE thing is nonsense. Whether or not ETH was in the PWO, is has been indicated that they found TRACE amounts. TRACE being the key word. The amounts were MINISCULE and certainly not enough to create the effect that Craze gives alone. I have no taken Dendrobium on it's own, but I am sure that it plays a big factor in the Craze effect. I am also sure that ETH played a role too, but not nearly enough of a role to make the difference.
    Originally Posted by BenBlue View Post
    Actually, none of the articles that I DID read mentioned anything but "TRACE AMOUNTS". I read a few articles and none of them mentioned an actual amount. So again, I ask, what article? Where is the link? All sarcasm aside, I would be interested to read this article.
    Even if they were miniscule/trace, the fact that it does not occur naturally in the listed extracts that were provided in the preworkout means that it was placed in the formula.

    PEA half life is very short, so the lasting focus of the PWO is likely not attributed to them.
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    Originally Posted by Valhallabound86 View Post
    Even if they were miniscule/trace, the fact that it does not occur naturally in the listed extracts that were provided in the preworkout means that it was placed in the formula.

    PEA half life is very short, so the lasting focus of the PWO is likely not attributed to them.
    absolutely. I am by no means defending DS here. I happen to love the effects of CRAZE, but I think it is dangerous BS that they placed ETH in the profile without listing the ingredient. The effects of Craze are noticeably more potent then anything else out there right now, and I always suspected something was up. Bearing that in mind, I use Craze sparingly, and always have. Once a week, maybe twice at most. In moderation, I think its an awesome SUPP strictly for performance enhancement. But the fact that there was this dangerous, undisclosed ingredient is not cool.
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    Originally Posted by newjeep75 View Post
    I meant insult against you, not by you.
    Ya I got that after the fact, sorry for the confusion man lol
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    Originally Posted by BenBlue View Post
    absolutely. I am by no means defending DS here. I happen to love the effects of CRAZE, but I think it is dangerous BS that they placed ETH in the profile without listing the ingredient. The effects of Craze are noticeably more potent then anything else out there right now, and I always suspected something was up. Bearing that in mind, I use Craze sparingly, and always have. Once a week, maybe twice at most. In moderation, I think its an awesome SUPP strictly for performance enhancement. But the fact that there was this dangerous, undisclosed ingredient is not cool.
    I agree. It was a well-loved product, but unfortunately the effects were likely contingent upon the compound in question. I'm curious what the reception of the product would have been without the compound.
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    Originally Posted by Valhallabound86 View Post
    I agree. It was a well-loved product, but unfortunately the effects were likely contingent upon the compound in question. I'm curious what the reception of the product would have been without the compound.
    Ya, that would certainly be interesting. I doubt it would have the same effects, as the compound is pretty straight forward not counting the ETH. I always just attributed the effects to the dendrobium and PEA. A few times actually, I got similar effects from D-stunner, which has the PEA for CNS stimulation. It was never as intense as Craze, but it gave me the same mental clarity, focus, and stimulation, even for hours after my workout was finished. Anyway, I guess we'll never know.

    The sad part is, it's due to people using these products irresponsibly that we cannot enjoy them for what they are. Even with the ETH, in moderation I would continue to use Craze (provided it was listed and disclosed the amounts). If DMAA was still an active ingredient in PWO's, I would also use that sparingly. In moderation, I think they can be amazing products for avid, serious lifters. It's the fact that people start pounding this **** on a daily basis, and well above the recommended doses, that the rest of us can't continue to enjoy the products responsibly.
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