Finding what works and getting bigger.....again

[Angliojoe]

Hi, So I'm 6,1" tall 85.9Kg/17%BF. Used to be a complete gym rat three years ago (98kg/12%BF/Bench110kg) but stopped training for 3 years and now I'm coming back with a vengeance.

Ok, this is my first time writing about my training. I've recently got back into training (3 months) and have had a friend helping me out for the last 6 weeks. He gave me a training regime which is really working me hard and pointed me in the direction of KETO (CKD) as he thinks I should be getting down to 12% body fat before lean bulking. The pictures are of the last 6 weeks progress. The problem is I am supposed to be doing my first carb up tomorrow and Sunday but the last week and a half I keep having lower/negative results on my ketostix so not 100% whats playing with my ketone levels. Therefore I will carb up this weekend and then eat the same food each day next couple weeks while slowly adding in my supps to see if anything is potentially kicking me out (Ketostix arent the most reliable things in the world). The plan is to drop to 12% then either lean bulk or CKD bulk.

Current stats
85.8Kg (i started 6 weeks ago at 91.8kg)
17%BF
Squat 80kg, Dead 100kg, DDpress 60kg.

Supps
ON Whey Protien
Xtend BCAA's
Java stim pre-workout
White flood (Taken before boxing sessions)
Multi Vit
Vit D
Fish oils

Diet
2000Cals @ 65%F/30%P/5%C (approx 700Cals below maintenance)

Please comment as I could use the help. My diet is strict and my training is hard 4 days a week (Plus two boxing cardio sessions)

[sambshep]

Less supplements, more food. I'd start with higher calories, around 2300. Decrease calories from there by 10% every week until you start losing 1-1.5lbs/week.

Fat = Remaining calories
Carbs = 15-50g (enough in this range to reach dietary fiber requirements)
Fiber = 0.014g/cal
Protein = 0.8g/lb OR 1g/lb lbm

[Angliojoe]

Thanks for the response sambshep but why would I do that? I have managed to get down from 91.8 to 85.9 while at the same time all my lifts have gone up. I'm not saying your wrong but just wondering why I would need to change my cals 6 weeks into keto? The issue I'm having with low readings on the ketostix has only been happening the last week or so.

[DecoStop]

The current thought is that at first your body is shocked by the sudden disappearance of glucose, so it goes into overdrive and produces ketone bodies by the truck load. Over time however your body calms down and produces just enough to keep your body running at it's current level.

A drop in EXCESS ketones (measured by the pee sticks) is normal....

...dont sweat the small stuff

[sambshep]

Thanks for the response sambshep but why would I do that? I have managed to get down from 91.8 to 85.9 while at the same time all my lifts have gone up. I'm not saying your wrong but just wondering why I would need to change my cals 6 weeks into keto? The issue I'm having with low readings on the ketostix has only been happening the last week or so.

Assuming you don't lose any muscle tissue, you need to lose at least 11 lbs of fat to reach 12%. For someone of your build your BMR is around 1,883. You're currently eating at 2,000 calories which is only 117 calories above your BMR. Therefore, it's highly unlikely you will be able to lose 11 lbs of fat (and 0 lbs of muscle tissue) with being so close to your BMR. I'm not trying to discourage you, only pointing out that since you can only decrease calories by 117 when your weight loss stalls, being unable to decrease calories any further compounded by the negligible deficit 117 calories would create, your body will cannibalize muscle tissue along with body fat and as such your targeted body fat percentage will be out of reach.

That being said, I suggested a higher caloric intake to allow more room for decreasing calories when weight loss stalls, which in turn allows for more total loss in adipose tissue.

[Angliojoe]

Decostop, cheers for the clarity. Thats exactly what seems like is happening (I was wondering what the hell was going on).

Sambshep,point taken. After my carb up I will up my calories to 2300 and when I start stalling ill drop them again by 10% per week. Thanks for the info.

[Angliojoe]

So I havent eaten carbs in 6 weeks and my buddy in the gym has suggested that I do a carb up (looking flat, feeling depleted). The plan is to have a Mango and Banana at 3pm today, pre workout at 4:30 pm and hit the gym at 5pm for two hours. I took the following depletion workout of t'internet;

Bench 3x14
T Bar Rows 3x14

Upright rows 3x14
Mili Press 3x14

Ham Curl 3x14
Leg Extensions 3x14

BB Curl 3x16
Skullcrushers 3x16

DB Chest 2x14
Shrugs 3x20

Leg press 3x14
Calf raises 3x20

Rope Tri Pulldown 3x10
Lat Pulldown 3x10

Leg raises 3x20
Crunches 3x20
Oblique kettlebell raise 3x20


So thats the plan, if I have ANY energy left I will get it out with some HIIT (I doubt it). This will be followed by a malto protien shake (100g Maltodextrin, 50g Protien), then I carb up to saturday night, wake up Monday morning an hit some PBs

[aaaaaaaaaachooo]

Looks good!!
Did my depletion yesterday ~ enjoying my Krispy Kreme donuts. lol

[sambshep]

I'd try to limit fruit during the carb-up since fructose is primarily used to fill liver glycogen, which will increase how long it takes to reinitialize ketosis once the refeed is over.

[Angliojoe]

Yeah the fruit was just before the depletion workout and none since. I left the gym last night destroyed and had the most intense dizzy spell after drinking my shake. Today I'm just sore all over, I have no idea how I'm gonna be able to perform at the gym tomorrow (back day) but we'll see. I'm actually finding it difficult to consume enough carb but should just about hit my targets by bed time (4000cals, 700carbs, 70fat, 200pro).

So the plan for the next two days is weights am and HIIT Monday night and boxing Tuesday night to get me back into ketosis ASAP. I'm not gonna weight myself till Friday cause I don't want to be disheartened, no point checking till the waters gone and I can see whether the carb up has worked out.

[SteamedPotato]

Sorry to interfere but I read the post from sambshep regarding BMR and not wanting to cut down too much. Ive been following an online calorie calculator which tells me that maintenace cals are 2000 and my BMR is is 1600, what do I do? Im currently at 1800 a day so far in my keto but if I eat more I wont lose very quickly. I aim for 2000 on my lift days, should this be higher?

[Angliojoe]

So its Tuesday, I finished my carb up on Sunday night and consumed 4000Cals of which 700grams were carbs. It was actually a bit of a struggle to eat that much and I was more than a little worried that I was gonna get huge in a bad way. So how has it effected my lifts, well I am still sore two days later from the depletion workout (I went ridiculously hard) but did weights Monday morning, Abs & HIIT Monday evening. I did Chest this morning and am planing a cross-fit session tonight to get me back into Ketosis. The good thing is I dont feel like im carrying much fat or water and my compound lifts have gone up despite being sore and not 100%. My Deadlift is up 10kg and my Dumbbell press is up 5kg, squats are on Thursday and weigh in is on Friday so I will post an update when I get to the end of the wek.

[sambshep]

Sorry to interfere but I read the post from sambshep regarding BMR and not wanting to cut down too much. Ive been following an online calorie calculator which tells me that maintenace cals are 2000 and my BMR is is 1600, what do I do? Im currently at 1800 a day so far in my keto but if I eat more I wont lose very quickly. I aim for 2000 on my lift days, should this be higher?

PM me and I can give you some rough estimates, I'd rather not hijack the OP's thread.

So its Tuesday, I finished my carb up on Sunday night and consumed 4000Cals of which 700grams were carbs. It was actually a bit of a struggle to eat that much and I was more than a little worried that I was gonna get huge in a bad way. So how has it effected my lifts, well I am still sore two days later from the depletion workout (I went ridiculously hard) but did weights Monday morning, Abs & HIIT Monday evening. I did Chest this morning and am planing a cross-fit session tonight to get me back into Ketosis. The good thing is I dont feel like im carrying much fat or water and my compound lifts have gone up despite being sore and not 100%. My Deadlift is up 10kg and my Dumbbell press is up 5kg, squats are on Thursday and weigh in is on Friday so I will post an update when I get to the end of the wek.

If you're struggling to eat during the refeed day, splitting them up into even smaller amounts could help. Furthermore, you could try eating less carbohydrates. Ultimately I would stop eating if my body was telling me to.

[Angliojoe]

I’m a little disheartened today. Got on the scales and I’m up 1/2kg and the ketostix are still showing negative (But I don’t trust them and must be in ketosis as it’s been a week!). I have cut all supplements out for this last week and spent extra time doing some HIIT and Cross-fit so I don’t know why I’ve put on weight. I upped my cals to 2300 this week so I wasn’t on as an aggressive a cut (400Cal deficit). Going by the basic fact that you need to be in a caloric surplus to build muscle I know that this half kilo can’t be muscle so I’m left confused. The second issue is that recovery time has been affected this last week. DOM’s has lasted for a couple of days rather than 1. Advice would be appreciated.

The way I see it I could continue cutting for another week and add back in my BCAA supplement and see what happens or I up my calories as my body is having trouble repairing itself and see what happens. I will do a bodyfat test tonight so I have something fresh to benchmark against.

What do you think guys?

[sambshep]

For the sake of not having to repeat myself, I'll refer you to my post in a thread you made here.

Furthermore, I would reserve cardiovascular exercise for supplementing your depletion workout only when necessary. If your rest times are short enough between sets when weight lifting, cardiovascular training is unnecessary and negligibly beneficial. In fact, doing cardiovascular training (and high intensity training at that) throughout the week will only mean less glycogen for your muscles during weight lifting, so it could actually be counterproductive to your performance with weight lifting. A small caloric deficit in conjunction with at least three days a week of weight lifting will cause weight loss.

BCAA supplements (and most supplements in general) are simply a waste of money; the only one worth buying is Creatine. If you're consuming enough protein (the majority of which is complete) then you're acquiring adequate amounts of amino acids.

[Angliojoe]

If any of the information I stated above is also in a question I made earlier in the week about getting back into ketosis, It is because I am trying to keep this log as accurate as possible so I can look back once I've completed my cut and understand how it went. In regards to the BCAA's I think it depends who you are. Personally BCAAs do tend to help my recovery time but to each their own. My major concern in the post above was around weight again which I wasn't expecting. I will cut down my activities during the week but don't want to be sat at home every night when I could be out enjoying myself so I'm left in a bit of predicament. I suppose I'll just see how it goes. With less cardio.

[sambshep]

Well previously you had been eating 2,000 calories (which was far too low for someone of your build and activity level), so increasing calories to 2,300 would have potentially caused some minor weight gain, but in the long-term it will be worth it.

[alexg5775]

PM me and I can give you some rough estimates, I'd rather not hijack the OP's thread.


If you're struggling to eat during the refeed day, splitting them up into even smaller amounts could help. Furthermore, you could try eating less carbohydrates. Ultimately I would stop eating if my body was telling me to.

Very very true. Huge thing i have learned while carbing is if you are hungry and feening carbs then eat away, BUT, if you are full and just eating the carbs to hit the # you want to hit even though you are not hungry or feening the carbs, chances are you will have some fat spill over and are ingesting to many carbs. Listen to your body. As said try spacing them out of eating less carbs. Might want to decrease F or P as well.

[alexg5775]

I’m a little disheartened today. Got on the scales and I’m up 1/2kg and the ketostix are still showing negative (But I don’t trust them and must be in ketosis as it’s been a week!). I have cut all supplements out for this last week and spent extra time doing some HIIT and Cross-fit so I don’t know why I’ve put on weight. I upped my cals to 2300 this week so I wasn’t on as an aggressive a cut (400Cal deficit). Going by the basic fact that you need to be in a caloric surplus to build muscle I know that this half kilo can’t be muscle so I’m left confused. The second issue is that recovery time has been affected this last week. DOM’s has lasted for a couple of days rather than 1. Advice would be appreciated.

The way I see it I could continue cutting for another week and add back in my BCAA supplement and see what happens or I up my calories as my body is having trouble repairing itself and see what happens. I will do a bodyfat test tonight so I have something fresh to benchmark against.

What do you think guys?

1/2 kg is nothing to even begin to worry about. And throw your ketostix away.

If you have upped your workouts chances are you are going to, at first, gain some weight, even if minimal. When you workout your body goes through a systemic inflammatory response as well as fluid shifts and water retention, causing weight gain. If you ever weigh your self within the first few hours after you workout chances are you will be at your heavest through the day.

Macros and everything else loks good. Keep at it and good luck,

Alex

[Angliojoe]

Thanks Alex,I did throw away the ketostix the day of my last post and I have been feeling so much better since doing so.
Today my weight is down to 84.7kg again but I feel like i may have gained a liitle bit of muscle as my lifts have gone up. I regret not doing a carb up last weekend as the back end of this week I have had noooo energy and feeling really flat and depleted. The plan now is to do a 24 hr carb up every weekend and just keep track of weight and BF% every week to make sure things are in order. Since I have upped my cals to 2300 I've actually started to feel alot better. The carb up for tomorrow is going to be a clean 500 grams of carbs and Squats on Monday (Stalled on Back squats so am going to do a few weeks of front squats to change things up). Looking nice and trim at the moment, had my BF tested today but my friend/trainer had his laptop stolen so hes gotta run the figures by his friends software before he can tell me but hes saying I look at around 14-16%. That's a big difference from 21% 9 weeks ago and makes me think that 10% by Christmas may be doable .

On last thing, I was browsing on BB.com and found the most amazing dessert recipe (haven't done any dessert dishes since starting 9 weeks ago), I cant remember who posted it and cant find it again but it was 2 eggs and 2 Tbl almond butter fried together and then topped with powdered sweetener. If you haven't tried it DO! it rocks

[Angliojoe]

Just got my body fat result and I'm 12.5% so I've lost 8.5% since starting keto 9 weeks ago. Had chest today and got a new PB since coming back to bodybuilding and feeling bigger, fuller and harder. Unfortunately I think I have picked up a stomach bug as my stomach has been spasming all day quite painfully so I don't think ill do much more than 1.5k cals today as I can't eat. I don't workout on Wednesday so I'll try and eat a lot tomorrow and take it easy. I'm going to stick with the current plan till I hit about 10% then increase frequency of carb ups to try and lean bulk while still on CKD.

[Angliojoe]

Its been a couple weeks but i've been mad busy with work. I have been experimenting with carb ups. I did a big carb up between friday night to sunday night and the next week All my lifts went up with some PB's, the downside is that my weight went up to 85.4. The next week I experimented with a 24 carb up but felt it the next week as my lifts stayed the same and I started lacking energy through the week. This week i have been experimenting with intermittent fasting and it rocks! A couple hard days getting used to it but now i love it I'm losing weight again and its just so damn convenient with work etc.

So current stats are 84.7kg, 12%BF and 125Kg Deadlift, 90Kg Bench and 90Kg (front) Squat. Its so great that my lifts have gone up while my weight has gone down. Loads of people have started noticing my new shape and all this in 11 weeks Im hoping to be 10% for Christmas ans start bulking in January.

[sambshep]

Good job on the progress