Growing on 5 reps or less....surprised plateau breaker for new growth.

[icedemon]

How effective would a split routine be that combined low reps (5) for compound exercised with higher reps (8-12) for the isolation exercises? Would using low reps for the compounds allow you to use a heavier weight than if you were training in the 8-12 range for the same exercise?

Or does a routine need to be based on either one or the other?

No idea, just asking the question out of genuine curiosity.

I start my routine with a compound of 8x2-3 and then do a 3x6-12 and finish with a full isolation of 7x6-12 for my major body parts. Then I throw in some 3x6-12 for my minor body parts. I work each body part twice a week.

[2nd_chance]

If you measured your arms just after training they measure bigger due to the fact they were pumped up where as the 18.5 measurement was taken when your arms were cold.

So out of interest were both measurements taken when your arms were pumped ie after training or cold as that's the only way to be sure that they have in fact grown ?

I'm hoping they have grown cus i'm following a 5x5 routine myself

He didn't say that the 18.5 was cold. ID does his measurements pumped so it's a valid comparison.

[BigJ66]

I start my routine with a compound of 8x2-3 and then do a 3x6-12 and finish with a full isolation of 7x6-12 for my major body parts. Then I throw in some 3x6-12 for my minor body parts. I work each body part twice a week.

Can you just expand on those figures please? Is that 8 sets of 2-3 reps then 3 sets of 6-12 reps and then 7 sets of 6-12 reps isolation per body part twice a week?

I'm thinking I've misunderstood this.....

[icedemon]

Can you just expand on those figures please? Is that 8 sets of 2-3 reps then 3 sets of 6-12 reps and then 7 sets of 6-12 reps isolation per body part twice a week?

I'm thinking I've misunderstood this.....

I'm not sure if your asking why I do it that way or if you want a example. Here is a example of my chest/tricep day.

Dumbbell Bench Press 8x2-3 (2 minutes rest or more between sets)
Incline Dumbbell Flyes 3x6-12 (45 seconds rest between sets)
Butterfly (on the machine) 7x8-12 (30 seconds rest between sets)
Triceps Pushdown 3x6-12 (45 seconds rest between sets)
Dips 3x10 (this is more of to just see how many I can do and I just rest for how ever long or short I want)

I do the 8x2-3 for strength and is always a compound exercise, the incline dumbbell flyes (I change it up each workout) 3x6-12 to get a different angle on the major body part I'm working on. The Butterfly more for hypertrophy and keep the rest to a minimum and it's always isolating the body part as much as possible. Just one exercise for the triceps since it has already been worked hard and the exercise is changed every workout. For me, working on both hypertrophy and strength helps me grow faster and bigger.

[induced_drag]

I'm not sure if your asking why I do it that way or if you want a example. Here is a example of my chest/tricep day.

Dumbbell Bench Press 8x2-3 (2 minutes rest or more between sets)
Incline Dumbbell Flyes 3x6-12 (45 seconds rest between sets)
Butterfly (on the machine) 7x8-12 (30 seconds rest between sets)
Triceps Pushdown 3x6-12 (45 seconds rest between sets)
Dips 3x10 (this is more of to just see how many I can do and I just rest for how ever long or short I want)

I do the 8x2-3 for strength and is always a compound exercise, the incline dumbbell flyes (I change it up each workout) 3x6-12 to get a different angle on the major body part I'm working on. The Butterfly more for hypertrophy and keep the rest to a minimum and it's always isolating the body part as much as possible. Just one exercise for the triceps since it has already been worked hard and the exercise is changed every workout. For me, working on both hypertrophy and strength helps me grow faster and bigger.

I am not sure what all the short 'timing' between sets is about....unless you are going for a cardio workout. Fatigue training plays a very small role in hypertrophy. It has been shown to result in primarily sarcoplasmic growth. This is only responsible for about 10%. Making a muscle work hard because it 'thinks' the weight is heavy because it is fatigued is NOT the same as lifting maximal weights in a rested state. Tension is the name of the game....and supersetting till the ends of the world may give you a good pump, but lifting in a fatigued state results in you short changing yourself in the tension dept. While it is fun to train like this at times, I would save it for the end of your workout. Maybe your last few sets. I would not base my workout around this type of training.

[icedemon]

I am not sure what all the short 'timing' between sets is about....unless you are going for a cardio workout. Fatigue training plays a very small role in hypertrophy. It has been shown to result in primarily sarcoplasmic growth. This is only responsible for about 10%. Making a muscle work hard because it 'thinks' the weight is heavy because it is fatigued is NOT the same as lifting maximal weights in a rested state. Tension is the name of the game....and supersetting till the ends of the world may give you a good pump, but lifting in a fatigued state results in you short changing yourself in the tension dept. While it is fun to train like this at times, I would save it for the end of your workout. Maybe your last few sets. I would not base my workout around this type of training.

I don't do any supersetting. I use long rests when doing low reps, high sets and I shorten the rests when I do higher reps. I do save the short rests for the end of my workout for that major bodypart. I start with low reps and long rests as my first workout. I'm going for both myofibril and sarcoplasmic growth. It's just what works for me.

[induced_drag]

I don't do any supersetting. I use long rests when doing low reps, high sets and I shorten the rests when I do higher reps. I do save the short rests for the end of my workout for that major bodypart. I start with low reps and long rests as my first workout. I'm going for both myofibril and sarcoplasmic growth. It's just what works for me.

Yes, I understand. You say you want both myofibril and sarcoplasmic. I think anyone would want such. But 75% of your workout is dedicated to something that only amounts to 10%+/- of overall growth. (sarcoplasmic hypertrophy) That is why I made the comment. Fatigue training has it's place but in my opinion it should not be the majority of your workout.

Just my opinion..... do all the drop sets, 30 sec rest sets you want.

[icedemon]

Yes, I understand. You say you want both myofibril and sarcoplasmic. I think anyone would want such. But 75% of your workout is dedicated to something that only amounts to 10%+/- of overall growth. (sarcoplasmic hypertrophy) That is why I made the comment. Fatigue training has it's place but in my opinion it should not be the majority of your workout.

Just my opinion..... do all the drop sets, 30 sec rest sets you want.

I don't do drop sets either. So what would you do different with the workout plan I have (a example of the changes you would make to the example I gave)? I'm all for learning what other people think.

[induced_drag]

I don't do drop sets either.

I was just using other examples of fatigue training.

So what would you do different with the workout plan I have (a example of the changes you would make to the example I gave)? I'm all for learning what other people think.

All that I am expressing is my opinion....so take it or leave it. But it is my opinion that people dedicate too much of their training into areas that return very little. (fatigue type training in particular), I think it has it's place, but again in my opinion, it should just be a small part of your workout.

As for suggestions,....there are lots of great programs out there which are based on progression. I'd pick one of them and do it. I have no idea of your experience level. (no pics, no stats...etc so it is hard to recommend anything).

Depending on your experience, I could offer my opinion......but it is only my opinion. What I have learned from this recent discovery, just reconfirms something I already knew. It however shows me that the effect is even observable at substantially lower volumes then I once considered. (I should have thought back to the months I did "Heavy Duty" in my 20's ).

Lift heavy stuff....(and eat enough) and your body will adapt with muscle growth. Sorry it is not all flashy....just brutally simple. No magic program...or specific timing or catch phrase. Hard to build an infomercial around this....but it seems to me to be the most effective means of growth.

Hope that helps some.

[BiomedDood]

I'm far from a seasoned lifter but currently on month 3 on the AP Program. I think his theory for growth (which the program follows) is simple.....weight progression, lower reps.

I'm definitely 'growing' on this program but it's still too early.

[postman123]

I was just using other examples of fatigue training.

Lift heavy stuff....(and eat enough) and your body will adapt with muscle growth. Sorry it is not all flashy....just brutally simple. No magic program...or specific timing or catch phrase. Hard to build an infomercial around this....but it seems to me to be the most effective means of growth.

Hope that helps some.

I can't speak for anyone else but this helped me. Thanks ID.

[BigJ66]

I'm not sure if your asking why I do it that way or if you want a example. Here is a example of my chest/tricep day.

Dumbbell Bench Press 8x2-3 (2 minutes rest or more between sets)
Incline Dumbbell Flyes 3x6-12 (45 seconds rest between sets)
Butterfly (on the machine) 7x8-12 (30 seconds rest between sets)
Triceps Pushdown 3x6-12 (45 seconds rest between sets)
Dips 3x10 (this is more of to just see how many I can do and I just rest for how ever long or short I want)

I do the 8x2-3 for strength and is always a compound exercise, the incline dumbbell flyes (I change it up each workout) 3x6-12 to get a different angle on the major body part I'm working on. The Butterfly more for hypertrophy and keep the rest to a minimum and it's always isolating the body part as much as possible. Just one exercise for the triceps since it has already been worked hard and the exercise is changed every workout. For me, working on both hypertrophy and strength helps me grow faster and bigger.

Thanks for the clarification, much appreciated. So for your triceps as an example, you will do 3 sets and anything from 6-12 reps per set depending on how you feel that day?

Reason for asking is that I've seen these figures in other threads but not really understood what they meant so apologies for the naivety.

[icedemon]

Thanks for the clarification, much appreciated. So for your triceps as an example, you will do 3 sets and anything from 6-12 reps per set depending on how you feel that day?

Reason for asking is that I've seen these figures in other threads but not really understood what they meant so apologies for the naivety.

If doing 6-12 reps, I usually aim for 12 reps. If I get 12 reps, I'll increase the weight. If I don't make at least 6 reps, I'll lower the weight. Just so you know, I wouldn't recommend what I'm doing for a beginner. It's too many sets. If your a beginner, your better off with mainly compound exercises and doing from 1-3 sets.

[hammerfelt]

I grew a lot on 5 reps. 2 inches to arms, forearms, and calves. 4 inches to thighs. Muscles that are harder to measure with tape traps, shoulders, back, glutes etc also got a lot bigger.

I believe this to be the single most important piece of literature that explains why: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...acy_of_all&cr= Rip breaks it down and makes it easy to understand. Stress causes adaptation.

[drudixon]

I am not sure what all the short 'timing' between sets is about....unless you are going for a cardio workout. Fatigue training plays a very small role in hypertrophy. It has been shown to result in primarily sarcoplasmic growth. This is only responsible for about 10%. Making a muscle work hard because it 'thinks' the weight is heavy because it is fatigued is NOT the same as lifting maximal weights in a rested state. Tension is the name of the game....and supersetting till the ends of the world may give you a good pump, but lifting in a fatigued state results in you short changing yourself in the tension dept. While it is fun to train like this at times, I would save it for the end of your workout. Maybe your last few sets. I would not base my workout around this type of training.

Think about the adaptation. The muscle responds to depleted ATP. Giving it less time to recover ensures repeated bouts of full depletion. It won't do much for myofibrils, but sarcomeres yes. Doing gvt with 45 second breaks taught me that. Gained 6 lbs in 8 weeks barely over maintenance and my 1rm actually went down.

[induced_drag]

Think about the adaptation. The muscle responds to depleted ATP. Giving it less time to recover ensures repeated bouts of full depletion. It won't do much for myofibrils, but sarcomeres yes. Doing gvt with 45 second breaks taught me that. Gained 6 lbs in 8 weeks barely over maintenance and my 1rm actually went down.

Yes....sarcoplasmic. And Like I said, it is a very small portion of overall growth. Yes it deserves attention, but not the MAJORITY of your workout done in this fashion. (Just my opinion)




I shot a pic today in the gym....(Have not been taking "progress" pics as I have been measure success in moving more weight). Anyway....good, bad...here it is. Funny, in s a FDB pose, my arms still dont look that big to me. I think it is just my back overpowers them slightly. From the side, they do however look 'big-ish' to me

[BigJ66]

Could I just throw in another question regarding rep ranges?

I began my serious lifting on the SS routine and saw some good gains in strength along with some improved body composition.

I later switched to the AP beginners routine as I prefer the 3 day all body rep progression program and was struggling to add weight each workout with SS without losing form. The overall weight that I was lifting though was higher than I can use on the AP routine due, I presume, to the lower reps.

What I have noticed though with the AP routine is that as I am working in the higher rep ranges I can only lift moderate weights. As an example the most I have ever squatted is 30kg plus the bar. I have seen women squat heavier which is quite er.....awkward.

Anyway, to the question. What are the thoughts on an AP style routine but one which uses a lower rep range, say a 5-9 cycle rather than the standard 8-12?

The thought process being that it would allow the use of heavier weights in the lower rep range but still provide progression?

Am I over simplifying things?

#justaskin

[TouaregV8]

Anyway....good, bad...here it is. Funny, in s a FDB pose, my arms still dont look that big to me. I think it is just my back overpowers them slightly. From the side, they do however look 'big-ish' to me

I call bull**** on this one as your arms DO look big. I don't think your lats overpower your arms at all, in fact, I think they complement them very well. Nice V taper. Good balance in your upper body. Looking full, I.D.

[induced_drag]

I call bull**** on this one as your arms DO look big. I don't think your lats overpower your arms at all, in fact, I think they complement them very well. Nice V taper. Good balance in your upper body. Looking full, I.D.

Was not fishing for compliments,...but I will take that to heart coming from you. Self perceptions can be strange in that way and I have been doing this long enough that I know they are not usually accurate. Thanks for setting me straight in that regard.

[anonymous]

My legs were at their biggest when I squatted just one workset , usually 4-6 sometimes 7-8 reps once a week. No leg press, no backdowns, no accessory work at all.

Then again I was a lot younger then so it's hard to tell.

My upper body doesn't respond the same way to low reps, mainly because my arms are a weak link in heavy training, I can never get an adequate response in my pecs from heavy benching or my back from heavy rows

[magic15]

This is a good thread, I recently watched this video and thought it was interesting considering this thread is saying 5 X 5 is good for growth while on a different topic and the other end of the spectrum this video is saying high reps is good for strength training :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQmy0...v277d7hBa1nRfg