Apoptosis - Killing Fat Cells, Is It Real & How Can You Induce It?

[MrM27]

The short answer to your question is that mature adipocyte apoptosis IS possible. Here's some relatively recent research suggesting that VitD3/Calcium might assist the process. The rest is just theories. My suspicion is that as you lose fat (by whatever combo of diet/exercise means) existing fat cells will deflate & eventually atrophy/die off. The trick is to do this as quickly as possible so not to let adaptations set in which cause plateaus, energy conservation & return to whatever 'set point' there might be given your history of fatness. It helps to remember that adipose tissue is not just inert tissue it is in fact an endocrine organ so the bigger it is & the longer you've had it the more entrenched it obviously is and therefore the more effort/time would be need to truly get rid of it. As I've said elsewhere post-weight-loss surgery is often a help to keep weight off/make fat loss more likely to be permanent because remaining deflated fat cells that don't die will still take up space and therefore affect your 'shape' as well as affect hormone levels which may contribute to further fat gain.


High vitamin D and calcium intakes reduce diet-induced obesity in mice by increasing adipose tissue apoptosis.
Sergeev IN1, Song Q.
Author information

Abstract
SCOPE:
Modulation of apoptosis is emerging as a promising antiobesity strategy because removal of adipocytes through this process will result in reducing body fat. Effects of vitamin D on apoptosis are mediated via multiple signaling pathways that involve common regulators and effectors converging on cellular Ca(2+) . We have previously shown that 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 induces the Ca(2+) signal associated with activation of Ca(2+) -dependent apoptotic proteases in mature adipocytes. In this study, a diet-induced obesity (DIO) mouse model was used to evaluate the role of vitamin D and calcium in adiposity.
METHODS AND RESULTS:
DIO mice fed high vitamin D3 , high Ca, and high D3 plus high Ca diets demonstrated a decreased body and fat weight gain, improved markers of adiposity and vitamin D status (plasma concentrations of glucose, insulin, adiponectin, 25-hydroxyvitamin D, 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D, parathyroid hormone (PTH)), but an increased plasma Ca(2+) . High D3 and Ca intakes were associated with induction of apoptosis and activation of Ca(2+) -dependent apoptotic proteases, calpain and caspase-12, in adipose tissue of DIO mice. The combination of D3 plus Ca was more effective than D3 or Ca alone in decreasing adiposity.
CONCLUSION:
The results imply that high vitamin D and Ca intakes activate the Ca(2+) -mediated apoptotic pathway in adipose tissue. Targeting this pathway with vitamin D and Ca supplementation could contribute to the prevention and treatment of obesity. However, this potentially effective and affordable approach needs to be evaluated from a safety point of view.
© 2014 WILEY-VCH Verlag GmbH & Co. KGaA, Weinheim.
KEYWORDS:

So in conclusion, they haven't actually found a solution.

You do realize that for every study they have on this subject proving 1 side there is another to disprove it.

[Serpentarius]

this answer shows a remarkable level of ignorance about the hormonal and endocrine factors that bear upon energy homeostasis and body fat regulation.

if this has worked so well why are you overweight?

[boghog]

To me it seems rather dangerous to try to activate the PCD pathways if you introduce a substance system wide. There are bound to be cell deaths everywhere in that case, or have they found a specific way to target adipocytes?

[EjnarKolinkar]

this answer shows a remarkable level of ignorance about the hormonal and endocrine factors that bear upon energy homeostasis and body fat regulation.

No, your reading comprehension is all that is lacking. The post simply ignores, without ignorance, the irrelevant hormonal and endocrine functions and chooses instead to fight battles that can actually be won. Rather than dreaming of sugar plums and rat remedies.

[ashleighvponder]

This is really interesting to me.

Have any studies been done for this on those who are extremely malnourished, but may have previously been overfat?

I have experience of the above but was not aware of apoptosis.

I'm aware that extremes at the other end are not the answer, but surely under long term conditions of caloric restriction the body would have to turn to using these fat cells (as well as lean body mass)?

[corneschuurman]

Great demoralizing answer, Serpentarius! Someone gives an educated and documented answer and you go for the low blow? Nice. (Someone should sterilize Mouth breathers)

Hard work. It's a given. Got it. Stop finding other words to say the same things.

It's very fun to read how neanderthals pass off speculation as fact, but to those who don't want a quick fix to your coveted bulbous veins, here is the gist of it: Fat cells, when full, tells your brain that the body is no longer hungry. Normally obese people are resistant to these hormones just like diabetics are resistant to insulin (So they don't get the message when they're full). So less fat cells equals earlier signals to the brain to tell you your full, not helpful if you're resistant, But it IS helpful to the question asked.
So back to the questions asked, shall we?

Can it be killed?
A: a speculative Yes! A boring read but here is one of many: h-ttp://jme.endocrinology-journals.org/content/35/2/391.full[/url]

How? A very sensible question.
A: The general consensus is that if you consistently keep your weight off, long term (about two years). They would start to die on their own.
A Faster approach, found to work through studies (as these "people" like to have proof), would be to lose the weight quickly (YES through Hard work, WE GET IT!) and vitamin D + Calcium supplementation. Though I think the fat cell atrophy would be minute..

Will it come back?
A: If there is a way to kill them without being in a fat deficit (like Liposuction). YES They will come back. If your body can go without them, it will.

[mavajo]

Great demoralizing answer, Serpentarius! Someone gives an educated and documented answer and you go for the low blow? Nice. (Someone should sterilize Mouth breathers)

Hard work. It's a given. Got it. Stop finding other words to say the same things.

It's very fun to read how neanderthals pass off speculation as fact, but to those who don't want a quick fix to your coveted bulbous veins, here is the gist of it: Fat cells, when full, tells your brain that the body is no longer hungry. Normally obese people are resistant to these hormones just like diabetics are resistant to insulin (So they don't get the message when they're full). So less fat cells equals earlier signals to the brain to tell you your full, not helpful if you're resistant, But it IS helpful to the question asked.
So back to the questions asked, shall we?

Can it be killed?
A: a speculative Yes! A boring read but here is one of many: h-ttp://jme.endocrinology-journals.org/content/35/2/391.full[/url]

How? A very sensible question.
A: The general consensus is that if you consistently keep your weight off, long term (about two years). They would start to die on their own.
A Faster approach, found to work through studies (as these "people" like to have proof), would be to lose the weight quickly (YES through Hard work, WE GET IT!) and vitamin D + Calcium supplementation. Though I think the fat cell atrophy would be minute..

Will it come back?
A: If there is a way to kill them without being in a fat deficit (like Liposuction). YES They will come back. If your body can go without them, it will.

And for all the research you just cited, I've seen research that says the exact opposite.

The fact of the matter is, whether fat cells can be killed or not, it has no impact on what your diet and fitness plan should be. If I told you "Yes, fat cells die!" does that change anything? No. If I told you "No, fat cells can't be killed!" does that change anything? No. So it's purely academic. If OP is asking for purely academic reasons, then carry on - interesting discussions is interesting. But if OP is asking because he thinks the answer should in any way effect his fat loss plan, then he's revealing a mindset that he's looking for an excuse to fail or not try.

In answer to the questions raised...

Can fat cells be killed? I've read yes; I've read no.
Do fat cells repopulate if killed? I've read yes; I've read no.
Do fat cells propagate? I've read yes; I've read no; and I've read "to a certain point."

Long story short - we don't know for sure. And unless you're looking for shortcuts, it doesn't really matter, because no matter what the answers are, your fat loss plan will still be the same.

[Znik]

Great demoralizing answer, Serpentarius! Someone gives an educated and documented answer and you go for the low blow? Nice. (Someone should sterilize Mouth breathers)

Hard work. It's a given. Got it. Stop finding other words to say the same things.

It's very fun to read how neanderthals pass off speculation as fact, but to those who don't want a quick fix to your coveted bulbous veins, here is the gist of it: Fat cells, when full, tells your brain that the body is no longer hungry. Normally obese people are resistant to these hormones just like diabetics are resistant to insulin (So they don't get the message when they're full). So less fat cells equals earlier signals to the brain to tell you your full, not helpful if you're resistant, But it IS helpful to the question asked.
So back to the questions asked, shall we?

Can it be killed?
A: a speculative Yes! A boring read but here is one of many: h-ttp://jme.endocrinology-journals.org/content/35/2/391.full[/url]

How? A very sensible question.
A: The general consensus is that if you consistently keep your weight off, long term (about two years). They would start to die on their own.
A Faster approach, found to work through studies (as these "people" like to have proof), would be to lose the weight quickly (YES through Hard work, WE GET IT!) and vitamin D + Calcium supplementation. Though I think the fat cell atrophy would be minute..

Will it come back?
A: If there is a way to kill them without being in a fat deficit (like Liposuction). YES They will come back. If your body can go without them, it will.

Strong first post, first of all fat cells goes through renewal cycle like every other cell with 5-10 year time spam to cover all, so yes there is fat cell apoptosis naturally but your total fat cell count stays the same.

Second, supplementation for fat cell apoptosis only have documented results on animals(usually mice/rats) and to my knowledge has never successfully been redone with human trials.

Third, the whole aspect of fat cell apoptosis, number of fat cells, creation of new fat cells, removal of old fat cells is all purely speculation and theories. The scientific haven't even figured out when/if it's possible to create new fat cells. The only thing that so far has been proven is that it "looks" possible to create new fat cells during obesity when in puberty, but it does not seem possible in adult age.

Simply, if you want to lose weight then focus on a calorie deficit, worrying about fat cells, fat cell count and apoptosis when we don't even have any scientific conclusion on it is stupid.

[Serpentarius]

But y u red tho?

[mikemoon29]

Bump

[DannPM]

Cryolipolysis is the only way I'm aware of that actually kills/destroys the actual fat cells.

You'll get far better results with dieting though.

[Crustacea]

I'm also interested in adipocyte apoptosis, not for weight loss but for the possible hormonal benefits. Has anything been found that can encourage adipocyte death in vivo rather than just in vitro?

[DannPM]

I'm also interested in adipocyte apoptosis, not for weight loss but for the possible hormonal benefits. Has anything been found that can encourage adipocyte death in vivo rather than just in vitro?

Cryolipolysis, high intensity ultrasound, as well as a few others. It's all manual techniques that have real human trials supporting them, not drugs. There was a recent paper with the last week that came across my pubcrawler that documents them all IIRC.

I'm not aware of anything that supports general health from this though, it's all for aesthetics, in plastic surgery journals.

[Crustacea]

Cryolipolysis, high intensity ultrasound, as well as a few others. It's all manual techniques that have real human trials supporting them, not drugs. There was a recent paper with the last week that came across my pubcrawler that documents them all IIRC.

Those are technically cell necrosis, not apoptosis, although I've thought about trying them anyway.

I'm not aware of anything that supports general health from this though, it's all for aesthetics, in plastic surgery journals.

Adipocytes produce aromatase, which reduces fertility and mental performance in men. A high number of fat cells also encourages high caloric intake through leptin and inflammation through cytokines. They may also play a role in insulin resistance.

[Znik]

I've yet to see any proven adipocyte apoptosis, fat reduction yes, actual cell death/removal no.
There are some theories and semi-documented things going around that seems fairly interesting, but I won't hold my breath until I see some proper studies and documentation on it.

[th3MUfr3shguy]

Hey guys, med student here! I skimmed through most of this thread, and I don't normally post on forums, but I feel like I need to chime in - Apoptosis of mature adipocytes and preadipocytes (adipocytes that haven't fully matured - ie. expressed a few proteins that give the adipocyte functionality) IS possible, HOWEVER, most of the VALID studies have been done in-vitro and the invivo studies were done on lab rats. There are serious, and unknown side-effects to these treatments. Also, I am NOT aware of ANY that have hit the market as a fat loss alternative. All of these things that you see on TV are (a) marketing ploys (b) probably ineffective vitamin supplements manufactured in china where quality control is non-existent lol and (c) probably do more harm than good.
It comes down to hard work and eating right. There are NO shortcuts.
"A good physique is one of the few things that cannot be taken, given, bought, or wished for. It is only EARNED."

[nicky_hansard]

Some of you need to shut the hell up and read the OP before posting ****.

Some of you have answered questions that were never asked, made assumptions about the OP's goals based on a purely academic question and in general came across as ignorant morons. Congrats.

From what I've read, in general fat cells are recycled and replaced every few years (not sure of the exact period). In a prolonged extreme calorie restriction situation it's not hard to assume that when the fat cells is recycled, it is not replaced (use it or lose it is). I've read a few articles and studies that seemed to support this hypothesis.

I think the problem is that we're not talking about simply getting to a low weight and eating at maintenance for a few months. We are talking about being at an unhealthy weight and consuming close to concentration camp amounts of calories for a few years.

I think a few things that probably influence this are your natural level of fat cells, when you gained those extra fat cells, how long you have had those fat cells and where those fat cells are located. If your genetic number of fat cells is low and the extra fat cells were recently created it's probably easy compared to somebody who genetically has a higher level of fat cells, developed the extra fat cells at a young age and has had those fat cells for a number of years.

The quantity of fat cells almost certainly influence sex hormones, hunger levels, insulin sensitivity and the speed at which fat is gained during calorie surplus.

[Serpentarius]

Fat cells wont die? THIS THREAD WONT DIE!
OP hasnt posted in two years, hes probably 450 lbs now multiplying his fat cells out of control.

[titl]

Liposuction as a physical removal of fat cells is at the moment probably the only way to do it. I came across an experimental work where removal of insulin from blood was causing apoptosis of adipose cells but this was mice and somewhat drastic. Long term starving possibly can have similar effect (by low level of insulin?)but is a bit impractical.

[StrongerThnEver]

While I realize this is an older thread, I also realize that 1.) there has been a lot of research and new understanding about fat cells, how they grow, what influences their growth, how they produce hormones and communicate with the brain, etc. since this post was started, and 2.) people who are interested in this subject will still come across this post and deserve to have more accurate and informed information.

Personally, I have gone from 305 lbs to my current 175 lbs and done a ton of research as well as personal experimentation (as you can tell) to find out as much as possible about fat cells and how to not just "shrink" them, but to actually eliminate them and to inhibit their future growth as much as is possible.

Losing fat is NOT simply a matter of eating less fat and exercising more. That theory is based on the false "calorie theory", which simple ignorant types find easy to understand, but which totally ignores human physiology and the fact that ones metabolism will slow down to adjust for any perceived lack of energy intake. Anyone who has dieted for any period of time has experienced this, and yet individuals who don't understand how the body actually works keep touting "just eat less and exercise more", as if that's a universal solution that works for everyone all the time. It doesn't. It never has. But, of course, those who promote this aren't the one's trying to lose weight, and haven't experienced first hand how efficient the body is at holding onto weight when it thinks it's energy intake is inadequate and slows it's metabolism down. When this happens, even eating 100-200 calories a day, individuals find they can't drop a pound, yet this totally false and incorrect calorie theory refuses to die, even in light of a number of individuals such as Jonny Bowdin and Jonathan Bailor writing books like "Living the Low Carb Life" and "The Calorie Myth" which explain this fallacy very clearly. But I digress..

The fact is, there are a number of natural substances that have been found through clinical studies to cause cell apoptosis.

Here's a short list -

1. Tumeric
2. Garlic (also kills cancer. Google "Using Garlic To Kill the Cancer Fungus Microbe")
3. Gugglesterone
4. Genistein containing foods. (Not for men ! Only found in Estrogen increasing Soy products)
5. Vitamin D3
6. Exercise (to accelerate the fat depletion and speed up the process of apoptosis)

The first two items are the most highly recommended.

For some articles to read to get you started, here's two -

1. Specifically about Turmeric -
Google "The 100% Natural Man Boob Busting Fat Burner Big Pharma Doesn’t Want You To Know About" by Garry Davidson

2. Info on all 6 items -
Google "6 Genechanging Things That You Can Do To Starve Fat Cells" by Mitchell Gaynor, MD

Source of Turmeric I take, which is the least expensive and most potent source I've found -
(Vital Natural Life) Turmeric Curcumin Extra Strength 1500 mg

The original poster was correct in his belief that if you simply shrink fat cells, they're simply laying in wait to balloon back up again with very little effort, and the other poster who mentioned how fat cells can make you "crave" fattening foods was also correct, as research has found that fat cells actually secrete hormones, which in turn affect ones hunger and cravings for food.

The OP was also correct in his belief that if you could cause fat cells to simply die, there would be no way for those cells to balloon back up again, since they simply don't exist anymore. This makes it far easier to maintain ones weight once one has lost weight, since the cells first of all can't release those hormones which cause hunger and cravings, and since they no longer exist they can't balloon back up again.

The old information which said you always have the same number of fat cells, that they remain with you throughout your life, and there's nothing you can do to get rid of fat cells, you can only try to shrink them and then only by controlling your caloric intake and exercising for the rest of your life is now known to have been incorrect.

The fact is, you can kill fat cells so that they are gone, never to balloon up on you again. There is such a thing as fat cell apoptosis other than the cell freezing method, and no need for the expense, risks, and pain involved in liposuction; as there are at least 2 very reliable, clinically tested, and proven substances which will cause fat cell death - Turmeric and Garlic. 3 if you count Gugglesterone.

As far as vitamin D3 and fat cell death, I would recommend reading "The Vitamin D Cure" by James Dowd and Diane Stafford, at the very least, to get yourself informed on the fat eliminating properties of that substance.

So, read the articles, get informed, and if you're one of those individuals who are actually looking to drop a few pounds, pick up some Turmeric and some Crushed Garlic or Garlic Paste (way easier to swallow than trying to chew whole garlic) and start enjoying the benefits of actually killing those fat cells and not just shrinking them and then waiting for them to just blow right up on you again.

To your success in attaining the body you truly desire and deserve...! ;-)

[Serpentarius]

When this happens, even eating 100-200 calories a day, individuals find they can't drop a pound, yet this totally false and incorrect calorie theory refuses to die

this is what ignorant, uneducated, and in denfial, fat people believe

[broganoff]

That theory is based on the false "calorie theory"

LOL. Funny how so many love to poke holes in the energy balance theory, yet cannot produce a viable alternative that has been shown to be effective and replicable in a research setting. Every alternative "diet" that works functions by indirectly reducing calorie intake. Including what's being pushed by snak oil salesmen like Jonathan Bailor and the others you mentioned.

So to lose weight I just tneed to eat turmeric, garlic, and Vitamin D3 pills? Lol

[CommitmentRulz]

... and haven't experienced first hand how efficient the body is at holding onto weight when it thinks it's energy intake is inadequate and slows it's metabolism down. When this happens, even eating 100-200 calories a day, individuals find they can't drop a pound, yet this totally false and incorrect calorie theory refuses to die,

Come on, you don't believe this, do you? Have you ever seen pictures of prisoners of war?

[skyjumper]

I have a friend who, some years go, was very big. He had a big procedure that sucked the fat out with lipo and then chopped off the loose skin and stretched what was left and he looked quite good. Now, he is right back where he started. Actually, no, he is bigger.

So yeah, they sucked out a lot of fat cells, but I guess those that were left just got bigger.