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    Question Rapid fat loss (PSMF) by Lyle ... and protein indicate there in. discuss!

    OK.

    stickies state that we should (on a cut) ingest from 1 to 1.5 g of protein per LB (POUND) of LBM.... while reading the book (stated in the title of this thread) the following numbers are thrown around:

    1-1.5g per KG (KILOGRAM) of ideal bodyweight

    or 0.5-0.7 per LB (Pound)

    ... so which is it ?

    please keep discussion and opinions friendly and constructive, this is not a: tell me what and how much of it to eat omghelpme thread.
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    Just keep it simple and get a minimum of 0.65g protein per lb of body weight per day. If you want to aim for minimum 0.8g protein per lb of bodyweight per day, that is fine as well.... there's no need to exceed that number, though (unless you enjoy foods high in protein, it fits your macros, etc.)
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    I suggest you avoid a PSMF.

    Anyway, re: protein , I suggest you review relevant research by clicking here and in summary:

    Tarnopolsky et al. (1992) observed no differences in whole body protein synthesis or indexes of lean body mass in strength athletes consuming either 0.64g/lb or 1.10g/lb over a 2 week period. Protein oxidation did increase in the high protein group, indicating a nutrient overload.

    Walberg et al. (1988) found that 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain positive nitrogen balance in cutting weightlifters over a 7 day time period.

    Tarnopolsky et al. (1988) found that only 0.37g/lb was required to maintain positive nitrogen balance in elite bodybuilders (over 5 years of experience, possible previous use of androgens) over a 10 day period. 0.45g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass in bodybuilders over a 2 week period. The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders.

    Lemon et al. (1992) found no differences in muscle mass or strength gains in novice bodybuilders consuming either 0.61g/lb or 1.19g/lb over a 4 week period. Based on nitrogen balance data, the authors recommended 0.75g/lb.

    Hoffman et al. (2006) found no differences in body composition, strength or resting hormonal concentrations in strength athletes consuming either 0.77g/lb or >0.91g/lb over a 3 month period.


    Also see:

    Effect of protein intake on strength, body composition and endocrine changes in strength/power athletes. Hoffman JR, Ratamess NA, Kang J, Falvo MJ, Faigenbaum AD. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2006 Dec 13;3:12-8.

    Macronutrient content of a hypoenergy diet affects nitrogen retention and muscle function in weight lifters. Walberg JL, Leidy MK, Sturgill DJ, Hinkle DE, Ritchey SJ, Sebolt DR. Int J Sports Med. 1988 Aug;9(4):261-6.

    Protein requirements and muscle mass/strength changes during intensive training in novice bodybuilders. Lemon PW, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Atkinson SA. J Appl Physiol. 1992 Aug;73(2):767-75.

    Influence of protein intake and training status on nitrogen balance and lean body mass. Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Atkinson SA. J Appl Physiol. 1988 Jan;64(1):187-93.

    Dietary protein for athletes: From requirements to optimum adaptation. Phillips SM, Van Loon LJ. J Sports Sci. 2011;29 Suppl 1:S29-38.

    Protein and amino acid metabolism during and after exercise and the effects of nutrition. Rennie MJ, Tipton KD. Annu Rev Nutr. 2000;20:457-83.

    Hartman, J. W., Moore, D. R., & Phillips, S. M. (2006). Resistance training reduces whole-body protein turnover and improves net protein retention in untrained young males. Applied Physiology, Nutrition and Metabolism, 31, 557–564.

    Moore, D. R., Del Bel, N. C., Nizi, K. I., Hartman, J. W., Tang, J. E., Armstrong, D. et al. (2007). Resistance training reduces fasted- and fed-state leucine turnover and increases dietary nitrogen retention in previously untrained young men. Journal of Nutrition, 137, 985–991.

    Effects of exercise on dietary protein requirements. Lemon PW. Int J Sport Nutr. 1998 Dec;8(4):426-47.

    Effects of high-calorie supplements on body composition and muscular strength following resistance training. Rozenek R, Ward P, Long S, Garhammer J. J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2002 Sep;42(3):340-7.

    Increased protein maintains nitrogen balance during exercise-induced energy deficit. Pikosky MA, Smith TJ, Grediagin A, Castaneda-Sceppa C, Byerley L, Glickman EL, Young AJ. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2008 Mar;40(3):505-12.

    Dietary carbohydrate-to-fat ratio: influence on whole-body nitrogen retention, substrate utilization, and hormone response in healthy male subjects. McCargar LJ, Clandinin MT, Belcastro AN, Walker K. Am J Clin Nutr. 1989 Jun;49(6):1169-78.

    Macronutrient Intakes as Determinants of Dietary Protein and Amino Acid Adequacy. Millward, DJ. J. Nutr. June 1, 2004 vol. 134 no. 6 1588S-1596S.
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    I do a keto diet and eat about ~.8g protein/lb and I am very happy.
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    OP, your stats indicate that you do not need to do a PSMF at all.

    And you shouldn't really do PSMF at all. It's a VLCD plan and it's not recommended at all in terms of general health.
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    Originally Posted by WonderPug View Post
    I suggest you avoid a PSMF.
    I'd be interested in knowing your reasoning WP as I respect your input on these things. Did you outline it in another post somewhere?
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    Originally Posted by AAOBob View Post
    I'd be interested in knowing your reasoning WP as I respect your input on these things. Did you outline it in another post somewhere?
    Extreme methods usually lead to equally extreme failures.
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    Originally Posted by AAOBob View Post
    I'd be interested in knowing your reasoning WP as I respect your input on these things.
    Me too.
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    Originally Posted by Mrpb View Post
    Me too.
    Try it once and watch the rebound. Do it a few times and watch the disordered eating start taking over.
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    Originally Posted by softpounder View Post
    OP, your stats indicate that you do not need to do a PSMF at all.

    And you shouldn't really do PSMF at all. It's a VLCD plan and it's not recommended at all in terms of general health.
    Guys, i never said i'm considering a PSMF, i was just stating where i got the info that caused my, not doubt, but lets call it intrigue on protein consumption.

    as far as it being an extreme method or 'not recommended in terms of general health' or being subject to a rebound, well, its a crash diet focused to (some) smart people (regardless of stats)... so um yea. read the book and get smart if you are going to attempt to do it, or, bash it.

    lets stick to the original idea and get constructive shall we? how much protein do you guys consider for a cut, and why, if you need to break it down the subjet a bit more....
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    ^ "it's a crash diet focused to smart people". That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

    If it truly was a diet intended for smart people; That would suggest you shouldn't attempt this diet.

    Originally Posted by WonderPug View Post
    Try it once and watch the rebound. Do it a few times and watch the disordered eating start taking over.
    x1000

    I've suffered from anorexia by resorting to extreme methods of dieting.
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    Originally Posted by BeingPaid View Post
    Just keep it simple and get a minimum of 0.65g protein per lb of body weight per day. If you want to aim for minimum 0.8g protein per lb of bodyweight per day, that is fine as well.... there's no need to exceed that number, though (unless you enjoy foods high in protein, it fits your macros, etc.)
    who doesnt love a big nice juicy steak! ?
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    Originally Posted by tailwhip View Post
    I've suffered from anorexia by resorting to extreme methods of dieting.
    Some people become alcoholics from drinking, others don't. Thats the problem with things like this, what might be great for someone could be awful for another.
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    Originally Posted by Balanis View Post
    lets stick to the original idea and get constructive shall we? how much protein do you guys consider for a cut, and why, if you need to break it down the subjet a bit more....
    Normally, stick to at least 0.82g of protein per lb of bodyweight regardless of cut/recomp/maintain/bulk.

    For more information, please read below:

    Originally Posted by WonderPug View Post
    Click here and in summary:

    Tarnopolsky et al. (1992) observed no differences in whole body protein synthesis or indexes of lean body mass in strength athletes consuming either 0.64g/lb or 1.10g/lb over a 2 week period. Protein oxidation did increase in the high protein group, indicating a nutrient overload.

    Walberg et al. (1988) found that 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain positive nitrogen balance in cutting weightlifters over a 7 day time period.

    Tarnopolsky et al. (1988) found that only 0.37g/lb was required to maintain positive nitrogen balance in elite bodybuilders (over 5 years of experience, possible previous use of androgens) over a 10 day period. 0.45g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass in bodybuilders over a 2 week period. The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders.

    Lemon et al. (1992) found no differences in muscle mass or strength gains in novice bodybuilders consuming either 0.61g/lb or 1.19g/lb over a 4 week period. Based on nitrogen balance data, the authors recommended 0.75g/lb.

    Hoffman et al. (2006) found no differences in body composition, strength or resting hormonal concentrations in strength athletes consuming either 0.77g/lb or >0.91g/lb over a 3 month period.


    Also see:

    Effect of protein intake on strength, body composition and endocrine changes in strength/power athletes. Hoffman JR, Ratamess NA, Kang J, Falvo MJ, Faigenbaum AD. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2006 Dec 13;3:12-8.

    Macronutrient content of a hypoenergy diet affects nitrogen retention and muscle function in weight lifters. Walberg JL, Leidy MK, Sturgill DJ, Hinkle DE, Ritchey SJ, Sebolt DR. Int J Sports Med. 1988 Aug;9(4):261-6.

    Protein requirements and muscle mass/strength changes during intensive training in novice bodybuilders. Lemon PW, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Atkinson SA. J Appl Physiol. 1992 Aug;73(2):767-75.

    Influence of protein intake and training status on nitrogen balance and lean body mass. Tarnopolsky MA, MacDougall JD, Atkinson SA. J Appl Physiol. 1988 Jan;64(1):187-93.

    Dietary protein for athletes: From requirements to optimum adaptation. Phillips SM, Van Loon LJ. J Sports Sci. 2011;29 Suppl 1:S29-38.

    Protein and amino acid metabolism during and after exercise and the effects of nutrition. Rennie MJ, Tipton KD. Annu Rev Nutr. 2000;20:457-83.

    Hartman, J. W., Moore, D. R., & Phillips, S. M. (2006). Resistance training reduces whole-body protein turnover and improves net protein retention in untrained young males. Applied Physiology, Nutrition and Metabolism, 31, 557–564.

    Moore, D. R., Del Bel, N. C., Nizi, K. I., Hartman, J. W., Tang, J. E., Armstrong, D. et al. (2007). Resistance training reduces fasted- and fed-state leucine turnover and increases dietary nitrogen retention in previously untrained young men. Journal of Nutrition, 137, 985–991.

    Effects of exercise on dietary protein requirements. Lemon PW. Int J Sport Nutr. 1998 Dec;8(4):426-47.

    Effects of high-calorie supplements on body composition and muscular strength following resistance training. Rozenek R, Ward P, Long S, Garhammer J. J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2002 Sep;42(3):340-7.

    Increased protein maintains nitrogen balance during exercise-induced energy deficit. Pikosky MA, Smith TJ, Grediagin A, Castaneda-Sceppa C, Byerley L, Glickman EL, Young AJ. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2008 Mar;40(3):505-12.

    Dietary carbohydrate-to-fat ratio: influence on whole-body nitrogen retention, substrate utilization, and hormone response in healthy male subjects. McCargar LJ, Clandinin MT, Belcastro AN, Walker K. Am J Clin Nutr. 1989 Jun;49(6):1169-78.

    Macronutrient Intakes as Determinants of Dietary Protein and Amino Acid Adequacy. Millward, DJ. J. Nutr. June 1, 2004 vol. 134 no. 6 1588S-1596S.
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    Originally Posted by AAOBob View Post
    Some people become alcoholics from drinking, others don't. Thats the problem with things like this, what might be great for someone could be awful for another.
    Common sense would put forward the idea that macronutrient/micronutrient insufficiency will lead to hormonal/physiological complications.
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    Originally Posted by AAOBob View Post
    Some people become alcoholics from drinking, others don't. Thats the problem with things like this, what might be great for someone could be awful for another.
    tailwhip, since you went ahead and called my statement dumb then i feel rather safe saying that you are not part of that (some)smart people group. anorexia is defined as fear for food or getting fat, if said condition, fear, or what-have-you-named it led you to extended periods of any crash diet, or, to not following a minimum nutrient consumption for short, then i do not think you can actually blame a crash diet for the condition....

    again, read the book before bashing anyone !
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    Originally Posted by Balanis View Post
    tailwhip, since you went ahead and called my statement dumb then i feel rather safe saying that you are not part of that (some)smart people group. anorexia is defined as fear for food or getting fat, if said condition, fear, or what-have-you-named it led you to extended periods of any crash diet, or, to not following a minimum nutrient consumption for short, then i do not think you can actually blame a crash diet for the condition....

    again, read the book before bashing anyone !
    Instead of persuading you to do the right thing, I'll let you learn from your mistakes.
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  18. #18
    Registered User Balanis's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tailwhip View Post
    Instead of persuading you to do the right thing, I'll let you learn from your mistakes.
    sigh, again, i'm not planning on a PSMF
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    Originally Posted by Balanis View Post
    sigh, again, i'm not planning on a PSMF
    Why not? It's a smart diet for smart people. Since you fit into that criteria, what's stopping you?
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    Originally Posted by tailwhip View Post
    Common sense would put forward the idea that macronutrient/micronutrient insufficiency will lead to hormonal/physiological complications.
    Being humans have evolved not for constant eating but for the possibility of starvation for periods as well, a short term fat loss diet like PSMF isn't completely out of the question. It would not make sense for the body to do irreversible harm if food intake was limited for a two week period as is the longest recommended period of PSMF for a leaner individual. This is not an endorsement of PSMF, and I've never tried it. I just think we can't simply use common sense to say something is "bad" in this case.
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    Originally Posted by tailwhip View Post
    Why not? It's a smart diet for smart people. Since you fit into that criteria, what's stopping you?
    whats the point in doing so? i'm in no rush and i like my food...
    May what you do in life echoe in eternity. - Maximus Decimus Meridius, Gladiator.
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    Originally Posted by AAOBob View Post
    Being humans have evolved not for constant eating but for the possibility of starvation for periods as well, a short term fat loss diet like PSMF isn't completely out of the question. It would not make sense for the body to do irreversible harm if food intake was limited for a two week period as is the longest recommended period of PSMF for a leaner individual. This is not an endorsement of PSMF, and I've never tried it. I just think we can't simply use common sense to say something is "bad" in this case.
    Yes, it would make sense. You should study psychology.
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    Originally Posted by tailwhip View Post
    Common sense would put forward the idea that macronutrient/micronutrient insufficiency will lead to hormonal/physiological complications.
    Malnutrition and acute deprivation in the face of plenty somehow doesn't strike me as the common sense approach either.
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    Originally Posted by tailwhip View Post
    Yes, it would make sense. You should study psychology.
    My degrees include physiology and anatomy. Just because some people have issues psychologically doesn't mean everyone will. Refer back to the idea that not every drinker becomes an alcoholic.
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    Originally Posted by AAOBob View Post
    My degrees include physiology and anatomy. Just because some people have issues psychologically doesn't mean everyone will. Refer back to the idea that not every drinker becomes an alcoholic.
    This is, of course, true. But a PSMF in normal weight individuals is an intervention similar in it's excursion from typical behavior to binge drinking. And at such an extreme, risks are higher for myriad bad outcomes, the most likely of which is recidivism.
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    I just saw this one on another blog. Granted its on obese...

    3 / Lose Weight, Keep It Off With Protein
    Soenen, S., Martens, E. A., Hochstenbach-Waelen, A., Lemmens, S. G., & Westerterp-Plantenga, M. S. (2013). Normal Protein Intake Is Required for Body Weight Loss and Weight Maintenance, and Elevated Protein Intake for Additional Preservation of Resting Energy Expenditure and Fat Free Mass. The Journal of nutrition.
    A few of the most beneficial conditions for weight loss include a caloric deficit, maintaining feelings of satiety, and sparing lean body mass. It is thought that energy-restricted diets with relatively high protein content, as compared to current dietary guidelines, are beneficial in this respect. However, as anyone who has ever lost weight and gained it back can attest, a dietary schema that doesn't translate to weight maintenance afterward is of little use. So where does protein intake fit into that challenge?

    What Did the Researchers Do? ///
    The researchers wanted to investigate the effects of dietary protein content on weight loss, bodyweight maintenance thereafter, and body composition during a 6-month restricted energy diet undertaken by 80 overweight and obese subjects. They decided to examine absolute protein levels at two levels: that of the current dietary guidelines, which is 0.8 g per kg of bodyweight per day, and at a higher level of 1.2 g per kg of bodyweight per day. The caloric intake during the 6-month period was structured in three phases: 2 weeks of 100 percent of maintenance energy requirements, a 6-week weight-loss phase at 33 percent of original maintenance energy requirements, and a 17-week maintenance phase at 67 percent of original maintenance energy requirements.


    The researchers reported that bodyweight, BMI, and waist-to-hip circumference ratio reduced in both higher and lower protein groups, and that there were no significant differences between groups. The higher protein diet group lost 5 kg in the 6-week weight loss phase, while the lower protein group lost 5.9 kg. In the 17-week maintenance phase, the higher protein group lost another 2 kg, while the lower protein group lost 1.3 kg.

    The researchers also reported that fat-free mass reduced significantly in both groups. However, the lower protein group lost more fat-free mass than the higher protein group. The lower protein group lost 1.3 kg of fat free mass in the 6-week weight loss phase and put 0.5 kg back on during the 17-week maintenance phase. However, the higher protein group lost just 0.6 kg of fat-free mass during the 6-week weight loss phase and also gained back 0.5 kg on during the 17-week maintenance phase.

    The researchers concluded that inadequate protein content in the diet greatly contributes to the risk of bodyweight regain. They concluded that a higher protein diet of 1.2 g per kg of bodyweight preserves more fat-free mass than a diet of 0.8 g per kg of bodyweight
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    Originally Posted by tailwhip View Post
    Common sense would put forward the idea that macronutrient/micronutrient insufficiency will lead to hormonal/physiological complications.
    I feel this to be a key statement. RFL style diets are interesting to me. I usually feel that this interest is analogous to a moth and a flame. I have avoided them for this reason. In addition training universally tanks in every RFL log I have followed, which is not appealing to me. The idea of massive fluctuations in weight and training is the opposite of my real goals.

    I know we are just supposed to be discussing protein intake during deficit dieting OP. I think a trainee over .8g a pound will be fine. More is obviously preferable to some for satiety while dieting. See Pug's jumbo list, I can't add anything to it, and agree with it as far as minimums go.
    Any extreme is not the way. It’s not about resorting to extremes, it’s about finding middle ground. - Frank Zane


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