Moving forward in Reverse: Devils post-show recovery thread

[Devils]

Devils, do you happen to agree with Lyle McDonald's philosophies of UD2? I haven't tried this yet but maybe you did?

I'm just reading it now.

During dieting I would cycle carbohydrates, but I would still keep to the same general calories. During my low carb days I would keep protein lower and fats higher, as I didn't want to over consume protein.

I do believe glycogen depletion plays a significant role in fat loss, and it's definitely one of the methods I like to use. Not quite the strict rules he uses, I love to get more fats in.

I wouldn't like the idea of a 50-75% deficit for more than a few days though. I prefer a more balanced approach.

[lukamura]

I'm curious if I would benefit from such approach. I work-out 4 times a week (upper/lower/cardio-off/upper/lower/cardio-off/off) and I wonder what would be my depletion days, kinda hard to keep the workout schedule and deplete carbs and still perform optimal at the gym. What would you suggest as for me for example?

[Devils]

I'm curious if I would benefit from such approach. I work-out 4 times a week (upper/lower/cardio-off/upper/lower/cardio-off/off) and I wonder what would be my depletion days, kinda hard to keep the workout schedule and deplete carbs and still perform optimal at the gym. What would you suggest as for me for example?

Depends on the time you train, Consume most of your carbs in the 8 hours before you train, lower in the other 16 hours. For example if you were training in the morning most days I would do it like this;

Monday - Upper - Low CHO in AM, High CHO the in PM
Tuesday - Lower - Low CHO in AM, Moderate CHO post workout, low CHO in the PM
Wednesday - Off - Low CHO in AM, High CHO before bed
Thursday - Upper - Low CHO in AM, High CHO in PM
Friday - Lower - Low CHO in AM, Moderate CHO post workout, low CHO in the PM
Saturday - Off - Low CHO in the AM + PM
Sunday - Off - REFEED, Very Low fat, Moderate Protein, High CARB each meal.

Sorry if it's a bit elaborate but this is the system I would use. Intermittent fasting would be used if you're going out to dinner or social occasions, then resume normal eating in the next 12 hours or so after the big meal/event.

Most of the time I train well is having a big carbohydrate meal before bed then something low carb in the morning then going to train, then feeding carbs in post workout.

[lukamura]

Thanks, when I get to the point I'll have to shredd the last bit of glutes fat I'll hop on that UD2 just out of curiosity. So far, I'm doing well having one refeed once a week.

[Ccm644]

Depends on the time you train, Consume most of your carbs in the 8 hours before you train, lower in the other 16 hours. For example if you were training in the morning most days I would do it like this;

Monday - Upper - Low CHO in AM, High CHO the in PM
Tuesday - Lower - Low CHO in AM, Moderate CHO post workout, low CHO in the PM
Wednesday - Off - Low CHO in AM, High CHO before bed
Thursday - Upper - Low CHO in AM, High CHO in PM
Friday - Lower - Low CHO in AM, Moderate CHO post workout, low CHO in the PM
Saturday - Off - Low CHO in the AM + PM
Sunday - Off - REFEED, Very Low fat, Moderate Protein, High CARB each meal.

Sorry if it's a bit elaborate but this is the system I would use. Intermittent fasting would be used if you're going out to dinner or social occasions, then resume normal eating in the next 12 hours or so after the big meal/event.

Most of the time I train well is having a big carbohydrate meal before bed then something low carb in the morning then going to train, then feeding carbs in post workout.

Very interesting, thank you

Will have a look and see if I could use this when I'm home and can have a good look

I train am and hate eating a lot of carbs before I like lower carbs

But interesting how you set the day up to help training for tomorrow

Keep up the work!

[Devils]

Thanks, when I get to the point I'll have to shredd the last bit of glutes fat I'll hop on that UD2 just out of curiosity. So far, I'm doing well having one refeed once a week.

There's no magic formula, just set your calories to 250-500 below maintenance and slowly come down. Also have refeeds about once a week of about 50% above maintenance.

Very interesting, thank you

Will have a look and see if I could use this when I'm home and can have a good look
I train am and hate eating a lot of carbs before I like lower carbs
But interesting how you set the day up to help training for tomorrow
Keep up the work!

Aye, If you train every day and it's important, why not set up your food to maximize recovery? I've noticed little brain fog/lethargy when training no carb, as long as you've fed on enough within 12 or so hours beforehand you should have enough in storage to push heavy things.

[deltpecx]

Please don't take this the wrong way.

I was wondering are you naturally lean without weight training?

[Devils]

Please don't take this the wrong way.

I was wondering are you naturally lean without weight training?

As in before weight training? No I played computer games all day and drank coca cola.

[deltpecx]

As in before weight training? No I played computer games all day and drank coca cola.

Haha! My son did that and he got fat! He started training and lost like half a person...LOL!

Yes, as in before weight training. I was really skinny.

[Devils]

Day 6, Week 2 Upper Body

Morning Weight = 76kg


Training

Bench Press 16kg x 20, 24kg x 10, 36kg x 12-12, 42kg x 6-6
Incline Dumbbell Press 26kg x 12-12, 36kg x 5-5

Pullups 26kg x 12-12, 40kg x 5, 30kg x 8
Tricep Pushdown 67kg x 15, 74kg x 12

Alternating Bicep Curl 20kg x 16-12
1 arm Row 34kg x 12-12-12


Nutrition

Approx 4000 calories, --p, -c, --f

Omelet & WPC Shake
1 WPC Choc Shake
Red Rooster Dinner Box + Avocado sub
Pizza + Icecream
1 WPC Choc Shake


Thoughts

Worked out at a different gym with some mates this time. Really good bodybuilding gym so had fun goofing around. Had a great feed afterwards, I was going to go for pizza but it was closed so I went to the Red Rooster instead and got some chicken. The crumbed chicken and avacado with bacon sub was great, definitely going back there again soon.

&

Day 7, Week 2 Rest

Did Jacobs ladder this Sunday morning, it's in the city and is about 250 steps going up a small cliff, a lot of people go there for exercise. Ran 4 rounds in about 15 mins or so then went for a light walk around the park. Then went food shopping after that at the markets and bought a whole heap of eggs and fresh vegetables, so cheap. Chilled out at night and watched some movies.

Approx 3800 calories

Apologies for the macro's not being exact, It's a long weekend here so I've been quite busy these last few days.

It's Monday morning and I have an extra day off, my morning weight is 75.6kg. So around 500 gram increase from the same point last week, this is with 2-3 days over over 4000 calories. At the moment I would estimate my resting maintenance to be 2600 calories, my active maintenance to be 3000-3200 calories and my gaining calories to be 3500-3600. This week I'm planning to hit my resting calories during off days, my active maintenance on my upper body days and my gaining on my leg training days. This is the rough plan I will follow. It's looking to be a short reverse seeing as though it looks like I'm close to the calories I was in the offseason, only at 8% bodyfat.

Regarding (metabolic damage) I've done 5 shows in the past year, 2 shows in May 2012 one week apart, 2 shows in September also 1 week apart and this recent show in May 2013. My prep time for the first season was 12 and 13 weeks respectively, the second season shows I started 14 and 15 weeks out. At the beginning of 2012 I started at a bodyweight of 91kg, my first shows I competed at a bodyweight of 77.1kg, the second season I competed at around the same weight and lastly this year I competed at 75kg flat. During the months of September 2012 I sustained my lower back injury which put me out for 6 months, it is in this time I believe I lost muscle in my legs and back and gained extra fat.

I did have to reduce calories below 1700 some days and increased my cardio but my weight could always drop if I did the extra work. There was never a time where if my activity outdid my metabolic rate, I couldn't lose weight. I understand when coaching someone that if they're not losing weight on the calories and activity they're reporting then it's more likely they are undereporting rather than an extreme adaptation to low calories. As going through this all myself I definitely know I'm not infallible and have made many mistakes in counting/weighing my food, the stresses of prep can weigh heavily on your mind and sometimes you can lie to yourself to make you feel better. At this stage it would be better to bring yourself back to balance, stop stressing about every little thing and try to reflect on how far you've come then bring it to fruition.

Anyway, enough rambling. I'm ready for a brand new week.

[Balddude]

Quite interesting to see how it's only been a few days since the end of your prep, and you're already up to around 3000 calories average. At the beginning of this log, I thought it would be a much slower process. I guess it's a good thing that a reverse could go at a much faster pace than the advocated "bump 100-200 calories a week" theory, and still work.

And the rambling was good knowledge to say the least. Keep it up man

[admb874]

amazing thread.

Thanks for all the updates.

All the best for your future goals

[Devils]

Quite interesting to see how it's only been a few days since the end of your prep, and you're already up to around 3000 calories average. At the beginning of this log, I thought it would be a much slower process. I guess it's a good thing that a reverse could go at a much faster pace than the advocated "bump 100-200 calories a week" theory, and still work.

And the rambling was good knowledge to say the least. Keep it up man

I'm still doing my Interval cardio and adding volume to my weight training, this puts my deficit up a bit, but yeah I'm pleased things are going well.

To be honest I did think bump 100-200 calories a week theory to be a little slow, this would definitely be an option if you're planning to drop all cardio though.

I just wanted to demonstrate that will a little planning and control you can set yourself up for maximum offseason progress, & it's really not as hard as people think it is. Most people after stepping off stage have absolutely no interest in counting their food or doing cardio again, I've thought like that too. But just a little bit more effort can makes things much better and you realize that there was nothing to worry about. It's a bit of self discovery.

My main philosophy would be;

* Don't binge, it may seem fun but at the end you just feel sick and gain fat, Refeed instead. If you're still hungry after filling your stomach then just realize that you're always going to be a little hungry after prep and just put up with it for a little while longer.

* After big meals try intermittent fasting. If you want to eat big or go out with friends then do it and enjoy, but just have a period of time before and after were you eat light and allow time for digestion.

* Still do cardio. If you've gone all through prep with a specific cardio plan, then just slowly ween yourself off it. Start by reducing the duration slightly each week.

* Train harder, now IS the time to gain muscle, so start increase your reps and weight slowly and make some good gains. Don't see yourself as gaining more muscle just because you've been dieting for so long, it will likely happen at the same rate it always has.

* Weigh yourself. If you're up, then eat a little less or at maintenance, if you're down enjoy a little extra that day. Take it one day at a time and adjust accordingly. If you're gaining too quickly then obviously you have a much lower maintenance than you think and you need to reevaluate.

most importantly..

* HAVE FUN. The contest is over, you've got a great medal or trophy and you're in the best shape of your life. Enjoy it, you've worked hard for your body, no reason to turn into a fatass yet right?

[TheNaturalOak]

Awesome advice

I think the binge thing is key. It does something psychologically that it's just damn near impossible to recover from, begins to be a habit and results in excessive weight gain without speeding the process of recover/muscle gain.

It's all about the experience though and to make sure you learn from every decision!

[lukamura]

Awesome points, don't binge is the most valuable thing. I'd allow myself for a day or two of total freestyle on foods - mostly high carb like pastas and thin crust pizzas. I wouldn't binge on fried things, that's just plain stupid. For example, eating a bag of donuts will just screw your mind for even more bingy fatty stuff.

[The Solution]

They key points you drop in here are what MANY MANY Competitors need to read and understand (some still struggle with it) we do diet down for a long period and realize that this is a hobby not something we collect paychecks over. a few meals here or there off course should not dictate our lives and show that we lack balance in our life. It just goes to show you how you hop back on the bandwagon and your diet can give you better if not more optimal results with a few slips up here or there (we are human we do make mistakes) but missing opportunities with friends/family is insane considering we only get them once in life. TO bring a tupperware of chicken and broccoli while your mates smash a meal out is insane considering your 1- 8 weeks out and could still find something decent at a restaurant or post-show and in your offseason and can enjoy a meal.

Wise Wise Words mate.

[Devils]

They key points you drop in here are what MANY MANY Competitors need to read and understand (some still struggle with it) we do diet down for a long period and realize that this is a hobby not something we collect paychecks over. a few meals here or there off course should not dictate our lives and show that we lack balance in our life. It just goes to show you how you hop back on the bandwagon and your diet can give you better if not more optimal results with a few slips up here or there (we are human we do make mistakes) but missing opportunities with friends/family is insane considering we only get them once in life. TO bring a tupperware of chicken and broccoli while your mates smash a meal out is insane considering your 1- 8 weeks out and could still find something decent at a restaurant or post-show and in your offseason and can enjoy a meal.

Wise Wise Words mate.

I had Chinese takeaway with my GF the night before the show. If someone can get in the most shredded, hard and ridiculous condition by sacrificing everything, then maybe that's just what it takes, but I want to find a way without those extremes.

[Ccm644]

They key points you drop in here are what MANY MANY Competitors need to read and understand (some still struggle with it) we do diet down for a long period and realize that this is a hobby not something we collect paychecks over. a few meals here or there off course should not dictate our lives and show that we lack balance in our life. It just goes to show you how you hop back on the bandwagon and your diet can give you better if not more optimal results with a few slips up here or there (we are human we do make mistakes) but missing opportunities with friends/family is insane considering we only get them once in life. TO bring a tupperware of chicken and broccoli while your mates smash a meal out is insane considering your 1- 8 weeks out and could still find something decent at a restaurant or post-show and in your offseason and can enjoy a meal.

Wise Wise Words mate.

Stop talking about me :P

I love this thread, alot of knowledge and help

Great advice

Solution im getting there

[nikolic993]

Amazing conditioning man.

How did you approach your nutrition when you dieted down for your show?Did you cut out all "junk" food, or did you eat the same foods as now?
Is it possible to get in contest shape (disregarding possible health problems) eating pizza, ice cream, fatty food etc if you hit your macros and micros?

[Devils]

Day 1, Week 3 Lower Body

Morning Weight = 75.6kg


Training

Spin Bike Warmup, 2 minutes @ Level 15
Windgates, 3 x 30 seconds @ Level 20-23

Leg Extension Single Leg, Level 5 x 15, Level 6 x 15, Level 7 x 15, Level 8 x 15
Lying Leg Curl Single Leg, Level 3 x 15-15, Double Leg, Level 8 x 12-11-10
Sled Calf Raise 145kg x 25-25-25
Walking Lunges 35kg x 20-20

Nutrition

Approx 3444 calories, 197p, 381c, 117f

Will update later




Thoughts

I've switched calorie counting software to Calorie king instead of Fitday, so there may be some slight variation in counting, but overall should be more accurate. Good workout, calves were a bit tight after running the stairs yesterday, but ended up getting all my reps out. Strength and reps are building up on most exercises.


---------------------------

Amazing conditioning man.

How did you approach your nutrition when you dieted down for your show?Did you cut out all "junk" food, or did you eat the same foods as now?
Is it possible to get in contest shape (disregarding possible health problems) eating pizza, ice cream, fatty food etc if you hit your macros and micros?

I ate my normal diet, just using different portions and meal timing. I also was more aware of unnecessary calories eg; cooking oil, full fat versions, liquid calories.

Yes it's possible, as long as your macro's are solid and you're dropping the lbs each week, it's just a matter of how low can you go. At the very end it's just a matter of filling up, adjusting sodium/water and peaking things perfectly. The point I was trying to make was you CAN get into shape eating normal foods, not having to change everything your not used too.

Stop talking about me :P
I love this thread, alot of knowledge and help
Great advice
Solution im getting there

Awesome points, don't binge is the most valuable thing. I'd allow myself for a day or two of total freestyle on foods - mostly high carb like pastas and thin crust pizzas. I wouldn't binge on fried things, that's just plain stupid. For example, eating a bag of donuts will just screw your mind for even more bingy fatty stuff.

Awesome advice

I think the binge thing is key. It does something psychologically that it's just damn near impossible to recover from, begins to be a habit and results in excessive weight gain without speeding the process of recover/muscle gain.

It's all about the experience though and to make sure you learn from every decision!

Thanks guys.

[jpfaherty]

Great insight on post show brah.

I think I'm a rare breed in the bodybuilding world. I NEVER ONCE considered cheating or going over my macros during prep, it literally never crossed my mind as an option. I was hungry at times, but it's all will power. Beyond that, after my last show I went out and had some wings, a couple beers, and a couple cupcakes and I was back on the grind the next morning. Never binged once during my reverse.

It's crazy to be how people can put in so much effort during prep and then the second it's all over lose COMPLETE SELF CONTROL. Like you said, the little extra effort can go such a long way.

[domingochavez]

Great insight on post show brah.

I think I'm a rare breed in the bodybuilding world. I NEVER ONCE considered cheating or going over my macros during prep, it literally never crossed my mind as an option. I was hungry at times, but it's all will power. Beyond that, after my last show I went out and had some wings, a couple beers, and a couple cupcakes and I was back on the grind the next morning. Never binged once during my reverse.

It's crazy to be how people can put in so much effort during prep and then the second it's all over lose COMPLETE SELF CONTROL. Like you said, the little extra effort can go such a long way.

Depends on the relationship you had with food in the first place. For me bodybuilding was a way to control the excessive eating, and I maintained that control for probably 8 weeks post show in 2011. But then life got really difficult, wife and kids and work and I was just sick of weighing food and being so meticulous, bad move I know and next time it will be better.

I think this pretty much sums mine and a lot of peoples relationships to food

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kBGZeKv5D0

Kicking major ass Devils, very impressed!

[Balddude]

Perhaps you can give MyFitnessPal a shot? From personal experience, it has the most complete food database out of all calorie counters, and has a pretty neat interface.

[Devils]

Great insight on post show brah.

I think I'm a rare breed in the bodybuilding world. I NEVER ONCE considered cheating or going over my macros during prep, it literally never crossed my mind as an option. I was hungry at times, but it's all will power. Beyond that, after my last show I went out and had some wings, a couple beers, and a couple cupcakes and I was back on the grind the next morning. Never binged once during my reverse.

It's crazy to be how people can put in so much effort during prep and then the second it's all over lose COMPLETE SELF CONTROL. Like you said, the little extra effort can go such a long way.

I feel like that now, but the first two times I competed I binged multiple times and definitely wasn't strong enough. So I definitely believe that the willpower can be developed.

Depends on the relationship you had with food in the first place. For me bodybuilding was a way to control the excessive eating, and I maintained that control for probably 8 weeks post show in 2011. But then life got really difficult, wife and kids and work and I was just sick of weighing food and being so meticulous, bad move I know and next time it will be better.

I think this pretty much sums mine and a lot of peoples relationships to food

Kicking major ass Devils, very impressed!

Getting sick of weighing food and being so meticulous doesn't make you put on weight, eating too many calories than you burn does. Who knows, you could have done better simply changing the size of your dinner plate?

The good thing about habits is that you can change them. Before I started working out I was drinking 18 cans of coke a week, eating chocolates on the weekend, fried chips for lunch with tomato sauce, sandwiches with 4 slices of bread. I put on about 12kg in a year, I then looked into dieting and ended up counting everything, worrying about how many calories and apple has, and getting 1400 calories a day. I lost 20kg in 3 months and then noticed I was going too far, so I researched in what to do next. I started regular weight training but it wasn't until about 6 months in I understood I needed calories to grow, that's when I started eating chicken/tuna/steak with boiled eggs, rice, pasta and frozen veggies. I damm near did that for 2 years and got some great progress, but that way was also wrong.

These days I literally eat like I used to, combined with the "bodybuilders diet" and I've never looked better. It's finding and enjoying the balance in between. Thanks for the comments.

[SPARTAAAAA]

I've switched calorie counting software to Calorie king instead of Fitday, so there may be some slight variation in counting, but overall should be more accurate. Good workout, calves were a bit tight after running the stairs yesterday, but ended up getting all my reps out. Strength and reps are building up on most exercises.

Calorieking AU is a good program. i have been using the cracked version a long time. i find usually some of the entries don't match up with the packaging so i once off enter it myself in custom food. i usually enter it per 100g as the custom food doesn't have a gram option unfortunately. that way im not restricted to the serving size of a particular food i can just log say 0.45 of a particular item if i have 45g out of 100g. but for common things like eggs, chicken, peas,etc etc it it is accurate for things like that. at the end of the day it prob wont make that big of a difference

[jpfaherty]

I feel like that now, but the first two times I competed I binged multiple times and definitely wasn't strong enough. So I definitely believe that the willpower can be developed.

I agree!

The whole sport is a learning process. Seems like you've picked up a lot over the last couple seasons!

[Nexxus]

just lurking on shredded kent.... don't pay this post any attention

[Devils]

Day 2, Week 3 Upper Body

Morning Weight = 76.3kg
Morning Weight Day 3 = 75.6kg

*

Training

Spin Bike Warmup, 5 minutes @ Level 15

Bench Press bar x 30, 40kg x 15, 60kg x 6, 85kg x 12-12, 100kg x 6-5
Incline DB Bench 26kg x12-12, 36 x 6-6
Pullups 26kg x 12-12, 40kg x 6-6
1 Arm Machine Row Level 15 x 12, Level 17 x 12-12
Cable Shrug Level 20 x 30-20-30
Back Extensions Bodyweight x 15-10-11

*

Nutrition

Approx 2492 calories, 190.3p, 273c, 63.9f

1 Spoon of PB, 1 Slice of cheese, WPC shake with coffee,
Crumbed fish sandwich with salad, oven backed chips, caramelized onion and grilled fish,
WPC Shake, Caramel Ice Cream, Fiber enriched chocolate cake, egg on toast with tomato sauce,
WPC shake with skim milk and chocolate flavoring.

*

Lunchtime Meal


*

Thoughts

Workouts are going well, feeling stronger each week and putting up more reps/weight each time. Slowly edging out some progress. Woke up at 76.3kg in the morning so I decided to hit lower calories today, this morning my weight stabilized back to 75.6kg, which is fine. It's my rest day today so I will keep calories around maintenance and maybe just do one session of HIIT.

[mandimeoutof10]

I just found your log. Man, awesome stuff. I've never stepped on stage but find the whole process and the mindset of those that do very fascinating. Good luck with your show!

[gixxer0.6g]

I'm still doing my Interval cardio and adding volume to my weight training, this puts my deficit up a bit, but yeah I'm pleased things are going well.

To be honest I did think bump 100-200 calories a week theory to be a little slow, this would definitely be an option if you're planning to drop all cardio though.

I just wanted to demonstrate that will a little planning and control you can set yourself up for maximum offseason progress, & it's really not as hard as people think it is. Most people after stepping off stage have absolutely no interest in counting their food or doing cardio again, I've thought like that too. But just a little bit more effort can makes things much better and you realize that there was nothing to worry about. It's a bit of self discovery.

My main philosophy would be;

* Don't binge, it may seem fun but at the end you just feel sick and gain fat, Refeed instead. If you're still hungry after filling your stomach then just realize that you're always going to be a little hungry after prep and just put up with it for a little while longer.

* After big meals try intermittent fasting. If you want to eat big or go out with friends then do it and enjoy, but just have a period of time before and after were you eat light and allow time for digestion.

* Still do cardio. If you've gone all through prep with a specific cardio plan, then just slowly ween yourself off it. Start by reducing the duration slightly each week.

* Train harder, now IS the time to gain muscle, so start increase your reps and weight slowly and make some good gains. Don't see yourself as gaining more muscle just because you've been dieting for so long, it will likely happen at the same rate it always has.

* Weigh yourself. If you're up, then eat a little less or at maintenance, if you're down enjoy a little extra that day. Take it one day at a time and adjust accordingly. If you're gaining too quickly then obviously you have a much lower maintenance than you think and you need to reevaluate.

most importantly..

* HAVE FUN. The contest is over, you've got a great medal or trophy and you're in the best shape of your life. Enjoy it, you've worked hard for your body, no reason to turn into a fatass yet right?

10/10 advice.

I recently came off a very aggressive cut and I had no idea what extended periods of a calorie deficit could have on the body. I was angry all the time, libido was shot, etc. I remember those first few weeks after I literally could not get full. I binged for about a week and was pretty shocked with how fast the body fat came back on. On the plus side, I sure was strong.