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  1. #31
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    In on first page of sticky! EDIT: CRAP!

    Good post OP, seems ive been doing it wrong ha
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  2. #32
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    I never stretched expect my shoulders a bit. Thanks for this info. Repped
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  3. #33
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    good read firm believer in stetching
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  4. #34
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    Originally Posted by alan aragon View Post
    The study I cited is essentially a replication of a previous one, so it wasn't a one-hit wonder:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22067245

    Here are plenty more studies showing adverse effects of pre-exercise stretching on various training & performance parameters (the first one involves vertical jump performance, the rest are strength & endurance measures):
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17313299
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19428295
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19057408
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18978623
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20647949
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11770791
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15903372
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19650391

    The main thing you should take into consideration is that there's a lack of evidence supporting the *benefits* of pre-training stretching (which you claimed) on strength performance. The results have been either neutral or negative. For strength training specifically, the evidence does not support your uber-positive stance on stretching that you described in the original post. In fact, like I mentioned, those without flexibility issues could at best be wasting their time stretching, and at worst, inhibiting their training performance.
    Allright, thanks!

    I edited OP a bit.
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  5. #35
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    Originally Posted by alan aragon View Post
    The study I cited is essentially a replication of a previous one, so it wasn't a one-hit wonder:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22067245

    Here are plenty more studies showing adverse effects of pre-exercise stretching on various training & performance parameters (the first one involves vertical jump performance, the rest are strength & endurance measures):
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17313299
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19428295
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19057408
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18978623
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20647949
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11770791
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15903372
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19650391

    The main thing you should take into consideration is that there's a lack of evidence supporting the *benefits* of pre-training stretching (which you claimed) on strength performance. The results have been either neutral or negative. For strength training specifically, the evidence does not support your uber-positive stance on stretching that you described in the original post. In fact, like I mentioned, those without flexibility issues could at best be wasting their time stretching, and at worst, inhibiting their training performance.
    So basically the negatives of stretching outweigh the benefits (in terms of progression) for your average joe?
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  6. #36
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    nice post OP, good read!
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  7. #37
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    OP judging by your post i can tell that you have no experience in actual stretching and achieving flexibility. Alot of what you said is just borderline dangerous and you are leading people into getting a muscle tear. This really shouldnt be a sticky. Super serious.
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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by dizzay20 View Post
    OP judging by your post i can tell that you have no experience in actual stretching and achieving flexibility. Alot of what you said is just borderline dangerous and you are leading people into getting a muscle tear. This really shouldnt be a sticky. Super serious.
    Can you elaborate?
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  9. #39
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    You should add that MOST stretching before weight training is not a good idea.
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  10. #40
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    Good to see Alan posting again in TBB.
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  11. #41
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    I'm not really sure what to gather from this thread..

    Is Alan completely against stretching or only as a pre-workout strength thing?

    I've been incorporating a lot more mobility work and stretching into my warm ups and I feel my squat flexibility has improved greatly.

    Great post though OP; it's nice to have a bit more useful information in this section.
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  12. #42
    The Merciful alan aragon's Avatar
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    Irdolan & AdCon -- Stretching is more of a corrective practice than a preventive one. In other words, not everyone needs to do it. Those with mobility/flexibility issues that hinder their chosen sport or lifts (or predispose them to injury) can benefit from stretching. But for a large segment of the population with normal ROM & no dysfunctional levels of inflexibility, stretching is just one glorious waste of time which can potentially impede lifting strength. And yes, if you choose to stretch at all, do it post, not pre-lifting.
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  13. #43
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    Originally Posted by Saintsqc View Post
    I was speaking with a gymnast and I learned many things. I was talking to a snail, he told me I better get a fuarkin' shell.


    If you are not stretching...you are doing it wrong : I'm doing it wrong.
    Flexibility is important for :
    -Injury prevention Let's be very clear on this point- we'll call it point A (I'll refer to it throughout this post) : A lack of inflexibility is important for x. This does not mean flexibility is important for x. They may seem similar, but they're very different
    -More efficient position, especially for squat Again, point A. Not to mention overflexibility will hinder your squat. Stretch reflex? No thanks Jeff.
    -Better posture Point A.

    If you dont stretch regularly...you are doing it wrong : What?
    Stretching is like muscle building. Frequency is the key. Flexibility gains are temporary (like the pump after a training) and it takes time, practice and patience to see permanent gains. True facts.
    For optimal gains, stretch : Or hindrances...
    -Once or twice a day
    -More than 3x a week
    -For at least 2-3 months All fair enough.

    If you stretch for ~1 minute or less...you are doing it wrong : Borms et al. McHugh et al. Brandy et al. etc. None of the research supports more than 30 second stretches
    During the first 1-2 minutes of stretching, your muscles are resisting. In other words, it takes at least 1 minute to start stretching the muscles fibers. Wut.
    To get permanent results :
    -Stretch for 3-5 minutes NON-STOP Based on...? Longer = better?
    -Increased the pressure on the stretched muscles over this time. Ask a partner to push on you or use your own bodyweight to apply more and more pressure. You have to activaly stretch your muscles. Muscle spindles of peace. More force =/= better.



    Quick recipe to success :
    -Stretch
    -1 or 2x a day Sure.
    -3 to 7 day a week Fair enough.
    -Stretch for 3-5 minutes NON-STOP No.
    -Actively stretch the muscles Active stretching, yes. "Actively stretching" as you described it, no.


    If you have flexibility issue for certain exercises (especially for squat), stretching as a part of your warm up might improve your form. Tight external hips rotator, quads and adductors are common among lifters and it can cause excessive leaning and/or buttwink. Look out for hips opening stretching if you have this problem. Tight pectoral muscle and poor scapular mobility can hinder your presses (flat and over head). "External hips rotator" doesn't exist, but that's a moot point. Static stretching as part of a warm up has been repeatedly shown to be dangerous, ineffective, and leads to a decrease in performance.



    Stretching a muscle for 5 minutes might seem time consuming for some of you. Here is a simple tips : pick 2-3 muscles that really need better flexibility. Example : quads, external hips rotator and adductor for a better squat position. Focus on them until you see permanent gains, then focus on another body parts.

    >> Goal to clean up the stickies in this section, which go unread anyway.
    >> Make this a sticky.



    Ohmygawd what is dis.





    Criticisms in bold. And even if all of the information presented was true, the fact that none of it is validated in any way is disturbing.

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  14. #44
    Registered User dizzay20's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Saintsqc View Post
    Can you elaborate?
    you didnt really explain the proper method of stretching that you are referring to. From your post it feels like you want people to keep reaching for 5 minutes non stop in order to "actively stretch", which will lead to pretty much nothing happening and probably some sort of muscle tear. Its not about how long you can hold a stretch for, but how far you can take the stretch.

    e.g., you take a stretch to where you feel tension and then hold it for 10 - 30 seconds, rest for a while, now you can stretch a little further to a point you can feel tension, hold it for 10 - 30 seconds...and so on.

    Just holding a stretch for 5 minutes straight wont really achieve much, and more doesnt necessarily mean better.
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  15. #45
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    Angry -_- what?

    Originally Posted by Saintsqc View Post
    I was speaking with a gymnast and I learned many things.


    If you are not stretching...you are doing it wrong :
    Flexibility is important for :
    -Injury prevention
    -More efficient position, especially for squat
    -Better posture

    If you dont stretch regularly...you are doing it wrong :
    Stretching is like muscle building. Frequency is the key. Flexibility gains are temporary (like the pump after a training) and it takes time, practice and patience to see permanent gains.
    For optimal gains, stretch :
    -Once or twice a day
    -More than 3x a week
    -For at least 2-3 months

    If you stretch for ~1 minute or less...you are doing it wrong :
    During the first 1-2 minutes of stretching, your muscles are resisting. In other words, it takes at least 1 minute to start stretching the muscles fibers.
    To get permanent results :
    -Stretch for 3-5 minutes NON-STOP
    -Increased the pressure on the stretched muscles over this time. Ask a partner to push on you or use your own bodyweight to apply more and more pressure. You have to activaly stretch your muscles.



    Quick recipe to success :
    -Stretch
    -1 or 2x a day
    -3 to 7 day a week
    -Stretch for 3-5 minutes NON-STOP
    -Actively stretch the muscles


    If you have flexibility issue for certain exercises (especially for squat), stretching as a part of your warm up might improve your form. Tight external hips rotator, quads and adductors are common among lifters and it can cause excessive leaning and/or buttwink. Look out for hips opening stretching if you have this problem. Tight pectoral muscle and poor scapular mobility can hinder your presses (flat and over head).



    Stretching a muscle for 5 minutes might seem time consuming for some of you. Here is a simple tips : pick 2-3 muscles that really need better flexibility. Example : quads, external hips rotator and adductor for a better squat position. Focus on them until you see permanent gains, then focus on another body parts.
    i dont think thats true cuz i dont stretch but i have god muscle gains but no one gains muscle the same so yeah its just an opinion
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  16. #46
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    Originally Posted by DDon1996 View Post
    >> Goal to clean up the stickies in this section, which go unread anyway.
    >> Make this a sticky.



    Ohmygawd what is dis.





    Criticisms in bold. And even if all of the information presented was true, the fact that none of it is validated in any way is disturbing.

    This is how I spend my Monday nights, come @ me 9:30am class!
    Thx for your input!

    About point A, you made a good distinction. I should have specified at the beginning to stretch and improve flexibility for retracted muscles. Also, I meant for "optimal flexibility gains...". I didnt mean for "optimal hypertrophy, stretch". I will modify these 2 points.

    As for the researches you are talking about, correct me if I'm misleading, but it's wrong to say that none of these support more than 30s stretch. It would be more accurate to say that none of these prove a difference between 15, 30 and 45s stretch. None of these have experiment long duration stretching (2, 3, 5+ minutes). Actually...I havent found articles about the short-term and long-term effects of long duration stretching (2, 3, 5 minutes).

    What is 3-5 minutes non-stop stretching is based on? I would say experience. Gymnasts are the most flexible athletes. When you coach gymnasts to improve their flexibility, you realize that 30s stretching is worthless. I haven't found scientific articles to support this yet...but it wouldnt surprise me if there is nothing though. Science is far behind in the domain of sports and performance.

    External hips rotator doesnt exist? http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/HipExernalRotators.html
    Is this a typo? External hips rotator doesnt exist, but hip external rotator exists?

    Static stretching as a part of your warm up can improve your performance if you have poor mobility.
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  17. #47
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    Originally Posted by dizzay20 View Post
    probably some sort of muscle tear.
    Some sort of muscle tear? Is that even possible through static stretching? Ballistic stretching can, rarely, lead to muscle tear...I never heard that static stretching could cause a muscle tear?? Unless you keep stretching even when it's hurt, I dont see how it's possible.


    Originally Posted by mrshredded4801 View Post
    i dont think thats true cuz i dont stretch but i have god muscle gains but no one gains muscle the same so yeah its just an opinion
    Stretching wont increase or decrease your muscles gains That was not the point of this thread.
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  18. #48
    Raw Nats 2014 comeatmebro DDon1996's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Saintsqc View Post
    Thx for your input! You're welcome <3

    About point A, you made a good distinction. I should have specified at the beginning to stretch and improve flexibility for retracted muscles. Also, I meant for "optimal flexibility gains...". I didnt mean for "optimal hypertrophy, stretch". I will modify these 2 points. I can get behind that. Stretching and fixing inflexibility is great.

    As for the researches you are talking about, correct me if I'm misleading, but it's wrong to say that none of these support more than 30s stretch. Yes, that's wrong. Brandy et al specifically showed that 30s was more beneficial than 15s, but 60s was not more beneficial than 30. It would be more accurate to say that none of these prove a difference between 15, 30 and 45s stretch. Not true, see above. None of these have experiment long duration stretching (2, 3, 5+ minutes). True. Actually...I havent found articles about the short-term and long-term effects of long duration stretching (2, 3, 5 minutes). Me either, as far as I know they don't exist. But just because they don't exist, that doesn't mean whatever gymmast x tells you should be construed and presented as fact.

    What is 3-5 minutes non-stop stretching is based on? I would say experience. Gymnasts are the most flexible athletes. When you coach gymnasts to improve their flexibility, you realize that 30s stretching is worthless. I haven't found scientific articles to support this yet...but it wouldnt surprise me if there is nothing though. Science is far behind in the domain of sports and performance. If we're using purely anecdote- I, and the majority of people around the entire WORLD, who have dealt with some facet of inflexibility have cured it with 10-30 second stretches just fine. I have yet to hear of anyone telling me that 30 seconds was inefficient for curing their tight psoas, so they tried out 5 minutes and it worked wonders. Again- burden of proof lies on you. I would agree that there is no research supporting OR disproving your hypothesis, but it CAN'T be presented as fact without reason. It's not even that it simply lacks empirical evidence, it also lacks any sort of physiological reasoning.

    External hips rotator doesnt exist? http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/HipExernalRotators.html
    Is this a typo? External hips rotator doesnt exist, but hip external rotator exists? Yes that was purely semantics- why I referred to it as a moot point. I knew, and everyone else knows, what you were referring to.

    Static stretching as a part of your warm up can improve your performance if you have poor mobility. This is open to interpretation. There is no question that static stretching as part of your warm up will make you 1) weaker and 2) more prone to injury. However, if you have such poor mobility that you are unable to hit squat depth with a general warmup, dynamic stretching, foam rolling, specific band warmups, etc; then it could be argued that static stretching as a warm up would "improve" performance.

    First- thanks for not replying like a defensive ******* and actually having a logical conversation.
    Second- points in bold again.
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    Great post,
    If you are a athlete having flexibility is just as important as strength, I started stretching for basketball and my improvements in speed and vertical jump are definitely noticeable, plus it makes squatting easier.
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    Originally Posted by alan aragon View Post
    Irdolan & AdCon -- Stretching is more of a corrective practice than a preventive one. In other words, not everyone needs to do it. Those with mobility/flexibility issues that hinder their chosen sport or lifts (or predispose them to injury) can benefit from stretching. But for a large segment of the population with normal ROM & no dysfunctional levels of inflexibility, stretching is just one glorious waste of time which can potentially impede lifting strength. And yes, if you choose to stretch at all, do it post, not pre-lifting.
    Hey Alan, what is your opinion on foam rolling after workouts or for off days? My quads have been really tight lately and wondered if this would help at all. Is it necessary? Perhaps I'm low on magnesium. Looking forward to a response.
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    Originally Posted by Griffin220x View Post
    Hey Alan, what is your opinion on foam rolling after workouts or for off days? My quads have been really tight lately and wondered if this would help at all. Is it necessary? Perhaps I'm low on magnesium. Looking forward to a response.
    I know I'm not Alan, but here's my 2 cents: Foam rolling is great. You can definitely do some after a workout or on off days; no real issues. Whether or not it is to be deemed as 'necessary' is somewhat subjective (IMO). May as well do it. If you don't have an actual foam roller, than a piece of PVC pipe usually does the trick. If you're interested in foam rolling, mobility work and the like, the I highly recommend that you check out this youtube channel:



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    Alan, (or anybody in general), what do you think of stretching a little before before running? I've been stretching to reduce soreness and increase flexibility since it's terrible and it's been helping me and my hips. I generally just do a warm up jog before my real run and was just wondering if that's enough.
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    Originally Posted by XCRunner9 View Post
    Alan, (or anybody in general), what do you think of stretching a little before before running? I've been stretching to reduce soreness and increase flexibility since it's terrible and it's been helping me and my hips. I generally just do a warm up jog before my real run and was just wondering if that's enough.
    dynamic stretching before, static after, if you want to.
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    I am currently doing BLSS and I would like to improve my flexibility.

    I think I have tightness in my hamstring, hip flexors and ankles. How do I stretch on my rest day? Dynamic in the morning and static at night? I don't a foam roller.

    I don't really warm-up my shoulders because I don't have bands, can I warm-up my shoulders using machine (light weights) instead.

    Will rep, thanks!
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    Originally Posted by DarylAng1996 View Post
    I am currently doing BLSS and I would like to improve my flexibility.

    I think I have tightness in my hamstring, hip flexors and ankles. How do I stretch on my rest day? Dynamic in the morning and static at night? I don't a foam roller.

    I don't really warm-up my shoulders because I don't have bands, can I warm-up my shoulders using machine (light weights) instead.

    Will rep, thanks!
    What makes you think hamstring, hip flexor and ankle are tight?





    For shoulders, shoulder dislocation with a broom stick works well :
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33P5AI27eiU

    You can warm up your shoulders by just doing the movement with just the bar or light weight, you dont have to use machine or bands if you dont want to.
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    Stretching is definitely good but don't do heavy stretching before working out because stretching will actually make the muscles weaker and risk injury. A good thing to do is light warming up (not stretching) before lifting, then spending about 15 minutes after the workout fully stretching everything out. This will get rid of any soreness in the muscles along with allowing to build strength without injury during the workout. If you're doing your workouts right then there should be no risk of muscle tears or strains.
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    very strong thread

    would rep if I could
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    Originally Posted by Saintsqc View Post
    What makes you think hamstring, hip flexor and ankle are tight?





    For shoulders, shoulder dislocation with a broom stick works well :
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33P5AI27eiU

    You can warm up your shoulders by just doing the movement with just the bar or light weight, you dont have to use machine or bands if you dont want to.
    Thanks for replying.

    When I did cossack squat, I couldn't straighten my legs all the way out. (I am not very sure about it, whether my hamstrings are tight).

    Is there any ways (guide or test) to find out which parts (hamstring, ankle, hips) of your body are tight?

    I just found this video recently and would like to share with everybody who have not seen this.



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  29. #59
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    Originally Posted by alan aragon View Post
    Unless you have flexibility or ROM issues that can put you at risk in your chosen sport, stretching isn't necessarily important for injury prevention. Nor does pre-exercise stretching prevent muscle soreness or force loss (http://www.pmid.us/10407930).

    But if you insist on stretching, since there's no difference in flexibility effect between pre & postexercise stretching (http://www.pmid.us/17685710), and it's been repeatedly shown that both static & dynamic stretching reduces strength performance, do it after the training bout. If you choose to do it at all, that is.
    The first study used only 15 second stretches so it would seem to support the idea that stretching for 15 seconds is ineffective.

    The second study looked at pre-exercsie stretching on post-exercise soreness. 20 second stretches were used. Again, it might simply prove that 20 second stretches are ineffectual. Would have been good to have compared with post-exercise stretching.
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    Originally Posted by alan aragon View Post
    The study I cited is essentially a replication of a previous one, so it wasn't a one-hit wonder:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22067245

    Here are plenty more studies showing adverse effects of pre-exercise stretching on various training & performance parameters (the first one involves vertical jump performance, the rest are strength & endurance measures):
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17313299
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19428295
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19057408
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18978623
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20647949
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11770791
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15903372
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19650391

    The main thing you should take into consideration is that there's a lack of evidence supporting the *benefits* of pre-training stretching (which you claimed) on strength performance. The results have been either neutral or negative. For strength training specifically, the evidence does not support your uber-positive stance on stretching that you described in the original post. In fact, like I mentioned, those without flexibility issues could at best be wasting their time stretching, and at worst, inhibiting their training performance.
    Rule 1 - any experimental design with less than 30 subjects per group is statistically useless.
    Rule 2- confoundinge effects were not well controlled
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