your thoughts about article in FLEX mag regarding pre,during,post workout nutrititon

[youngVet]

I just read an article in this months FLEX magazine reagrding pre, during, and post workout nutrition and i am curious to hear u guys thoughts.
The article in a summary breaks down to the following:

WHEN WHAT How much

two-three hours whole food animal protein 40g
preworkout whole food complex carbs 80g

15-30min before whey proltein powder 20 - 40g
and during workout malodextrin/glucose 40-80 g
(ie. 1/2 before other during)

immediately to 1hr after workout whey protein 40g
glucose 40-100g


1 hr after postworkout meal whey protein 40g
malodextrin/glucose 40g
or
whole food meal


1)Does this sound correct? If not what do you feel should be altered?
2)What amount do you suggest for me cosidering i weigh 195 considering i am not looking to put on fat?

3)Are the malodextin powder and dextrose powder from NOW foods ok?

4)Also i already ordered SAN V12, chuck diesel's NOS and Disel fuel reloaded.
My question is that i am suppose to take a serv of the V12 30 min before my workout will taking these drinks at that time and through out my workout impair my results from the V12?
What about taking 2 DFR(100mg caffine per cap...) 30-40 min preworkout?
Also will the DFR having caffine impair my results from the V12 taking them so close together?


Would appreciate you taking the time to share some of your thoughts regarding these questions.

[derekmac]

Originally posted by youngVet

Taking the protein and complex carbs pre-workout is sound, as this will provide a sustained release of energy.

Taking malto or dextrose during a workout is ill-advised, and is better utilized post-workout.

As far as taking a skake with glucose post-workout, that is fine, but there is no need to take another shake/malto an hour later. At that time your body needs a regular meal.

Take what Flex recommends with a grain of salt. This is the same mag that had Milos Sarcev claiming malto does nothing to cause an insulin spike

[youngVet]

others thoughts...

[theHULK9281]

I read FLEX everyonce and awhile, and I never read that they reccommend something like this. They RELIGIOUSLY suggest everything u posted pre-workout, but they reccommend that u have a 40-50g protein shake w/ some sort of simple carb, i.e. dextrose, etc. And, they say that the shake should be sipped throughout the workout. And, then about 45 min later u should consume a solid food meal. Not what u mentioned about taking another shake 1 hour later.

O, and yeah, FLEX is not the greatest source

[youngVet]

What i wrote is what is stated.

They say
half your post workout shake 15min before workout
sip other half during
than within 1 hr to have another shake
than about another hour to either have a shake or a solid food meal

[youngVet]

Has anyone tried any regimen similar to this?(with sipping some of post workout shake 15min or so before and then during workout)? What do u think about this?

Also could u guys help me on qustions 3 and 4.

[Grrrr]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by derekmac
[B].Taking malto or dextrose during a workout is ill-advised, and is better utilized post-workout.


Why would taking malto or destrose during a workout be ill-advised? Seems to me that you could get a jump start on your body's impending catabolism. Besides, str8flexed does it.

[derekmac]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grrrr
[B]

Originally posted by derekmac
.Taking malto or dextrose during a workout is ill-advised, and is better utilized post-workout.


Why would taking malto or destrose during a workout be ill-advised? Seems to me that you could get a jump start on your body's impending catabolism. Besides, str8flexed does it.

It's ill-advised IMO b/c you want that insulin spike post-workout- not while you're working out. Water should be sufficient until then. The danger in taking it during your workout and after your workout is an overstimulation of insulin.

[theHULK9281]

Originally posted by youngVet
Has anyone tried any regimen similar to this?(with sipping some of post workout shake 15min or so before and then during workout)? What do u think about this?

Well, kinda.....
I have a 20g protein shake about 15 min before, then I take with me my usual 40-50g protein shake w/ 5g creatine and 50g dextrose with me. I start to sip on the shake about 15 min or so before the end of my workout. I do this to get the process started a little earlier.

Suprisingly I have gain 50lbs of quality muscle mass in 2 weeks of doing this.....ok, im lying, it's only been about 45lbs......

[Grrrr]

ok 20g of dex during a workout isn't going to "overstimulate insulin"

[Jergo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grrrr
[B]

Originally posted by derekmac
.Taking malto or dextrose during a workout is ill-advised, and is better utilized post-workout.


Why would taking malto or destrose during a workout be ill-advised? Seems to me that you could get a jump start on your body's impending catabolism. Besides, str8flexed does it.

teh, yes it will overstimulate insulin. it will have a negative effect on GH release as well. post-wo insulin levels are very touchy. at this time, the whey itself will start to trigger a response. unless u are working out for more than 2 hours, during shakes aren't the best idea. and NOONE should be training that long.

btw, just because str8flexed does something doesn't mean its right.

[Grrrr]

care to post some sources?

[Jergo]

Originally posted by Grrrr
care to post some sources?

bro, it aint brain surgery, just think about it.

anyhow, below is a link, etc. that i had posted about a thousand times now.
__________________________________________________

http://smart-drugs.net/ias-weightloss.htm


^^^^
above is the link.
this is just one that i pulled up quickly.

here is just an excerpt: (speaking of the GH and insulin connection)

In other ways, these hormones are opposites: GH promotes fat burning/loss, while insulin opposes fat burning and promotes fat gain. "Increased insulin levels and decreased GH levels are characteristic of obesity." (4) PGE1 suppresses insulin release while PGE1 increases pituitary GH release. (4) Aging pituitaries may still produce adequate GH - it's the releasing of GH that seems to become problematic with age. Perhaps not surprisingly, GH-releasing hormone requires adequate pituitary cAMP levels to perform its GH-releasing "magic." (7) Also, a factor that can decrease pituitary GH-production is elevated insulin, which may inhibit GH synthesis. (7) Thus lowering insulin through a low-carbohydrate diet combined with GLA/EPA supplements to enhance PGE1/cAMP levels is a natural way to restore age-declining GH function.

[derekmac]

Originally posted by Grrrr
ok 20g of dex during a workout isn't going to "overstimulate insulin"

It most certainly will. Dextrose is by nature designed to cause an insulin spike- otherwise, why use it?

[robertthoburn]

I'm assuming you're a bodybuilder, that is, you're interested in improving the way you look in the mirror by adding more muscle and/or losing more fat.

That being the case, the type of workouts you're likely performing make consuming carbohydrate during them unecessary. If the purpose in doing so is to sustain 'optimal' rates of glucose oxidation, this isn't really going to be a factor at all during your typical bodybuilding workout.

We don't train like triathletes preparing to do battle at the Ironman championships in Hawaii. For those athletes, consuming carbohydrate during their horrendously exhausting course is essential to preserving the glucose economy and maintaining optimal rates of glucose oxidation (and, thereby, muscular power output).

For people like you and me, it's unecessary. And if you're training at as high a work rate as you should be, you won't have time, nor will you feel like, eating.

Incidentally, to see my training approach, see my post: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...eferrerid=19763

Other than that, the article's advice seems okay. That being said, I don't think you need to be so worried about using precise gram quantities of this or that nutrient, nor do you need any dietary supplements whatsoever to achieve maximal gains in muscle size.

Respectfully,
Rob

Rob Thoburn

Author of the "No Mistakes" Nutritional Guide
Creator of the "ROB" approach to training for muscle growth, and the "GLUCOSE ECONOMY"/"UNIFIED THEORY OF DIETING" concepts.

Science writer for PLANET MUSCLE
articles available at: www.1_fast_400_.com and www.wannbebig.com
also, see posts at www.mindandmuscle.net

[youngVet]

So what do u think about a mix of maltodextrin and dextrose and whey protein(in a 2:1 ratio) 15 - 30 min before the workout.


My current regimen is the following

Eat whole food meal

2.5-3hrs later
eat pasta or brown rice and 1 scoop protein

1hr later
workout



i was thinking of adding the shake about 15-30 min before the workout.

[robertthoburn]

If you like the meals you refer to, and you find you have enough digestion time prior to working out, then great. They look okay to me.

Having a little bit of protein 'trickling' through your body as you go into a workout (where blood flow to the muscles will be increased several-fold) could have some body composition-enhancing benefits. This has never been proven, but you never know.

That being said, I've never noticed the slightest bit of difference working out in the morning on an empty stomach (did it for years, and still do) versus working out after eating (did that for years, too).

You can check out my results at: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...eferrerid=19763

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Rob

Rob Thoburn

Author of the "No Mistakes" Nutritional Guide

Creator of the "ROB" approach to training for muscle growth, and the "GLUCOSE ECONOMY"/"UNIFIED THEORY OF DIETING" concepts.

Science writer for PLANET MUSCLE

Articles available online at: www.1_fast_400_.com and www.wannbebig.com

Also, see posts at www.avantlabs.com

[Lonny]

Originally posted by youngVet
So what do u think about a mix of maltodextrin and dextrose and whey protein(in a 2:1 ratio) 15 - 30 min before the workout.

Thats about the same as what i do, except only drink about 1/4-1/2 the shake on the way to the gym, and then the rest during. usually i finish about halfway through my workout and drink water for the rest of it.

i've never had any problems with an insulin spike thats made me tired.

As for the GH bull****, I've made a helluva lot better gains using a pre/during workout drink than i ever did off the supposed GH release. Less soreness the day after, longer more intese workouts, Less overtraining.

Most BB's consider GH useless (unless stacked with something else), Why would Gh our body produces give us better results than stuff we would inject?

Try it for a few workouts, try increasing your volume to put those carbs and protein to work, and see how you like it. For a real good pump add creatine.

PS.
Why are you listening to a site as the absolute truth when they have financial interest in what they are saying.

[robertthoburn]

Don't waste any of your time worry about the details of your diet insofar as its effects on growth hormone (GH) release are concerned.

The GH 'response' to your workouts appears to be more a function of trying to preserve threatened fuel (energy) supplies more than anything else. Maybe that's why when you eat carbs prior to a workout, it blunts the GH response normally seen. Carbs provide glucose, your body's favorite fuel. So when you have ample amounts of it, you don't need to release as much GH.

More important than circulating levels of GH (as far as exercise-induced muscle growth is concerned, that is) is the concentration of insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1) within the exercised muscle tissue.

Even when rats are genetically modified so that their circulating IGF-1 levels fall by 75-80%, they lose little or no muscle. It's the IGF-1 variants (e.g., mechano growth factor) produced locally by your muscles that are of greater importance.

Best,
Rob

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ferrerid=19763

[Jergo]

the gh release IMO, is a valuable tool in reducing fat storage while bulking. i have tried using a drink during, etc. and all it did was make me gain more fat.

as long as u take the necessary steps nutrition-wise u can really take advantage of reducing fat storage and having really lean gains in muscle tissue. ex, i use a strict ratio, eat super clean, always respect insulin guidelines, monitor progress, just to say a few, and have been getting optimal results.

but yes, everyone is different. maybe u dont store fat as much as others do, and can really take advantage of during-wo drinks as far as the overtraining and increased recovery times go. who knows, but w/ myself and a hell of a lot of others have known to be, taking advantage of one's "natural" hormones ie, IGF-1, etc. can really have an effect to a succesful bulk.

and to the original concern, yes dex/malto and any carbs of course do raise insulin levels. its alien to me why u would wanna chance storing more fat w/ drinking a shake during ur WO while everyone knows that insulin levels are so sensitive in response P-WO. and if ur training for more than what has been said, ur problem isn't during WO nutrition, its ur WO.

[derekmac]

Originally posted by Jergo
the gh release IMO, is a valuable tool in reducing fat storage while bulking. i have tried using a drink during, etc. and all it did was make me gain more fat.

as long as u take the necessary steps nutrition-wise u can really take advantage of reducing fat storage and having really lean gains in muscle tissue. ex, i use a strict ratio, eat super clean, always respect insulin guidelines, monitor progress, just to say a few, and have been getting optimal results.

but yes, everyone is different. maybe u dont store fat as much as others do, and can really take advantage of during-wo drinks as far as the overtraining and increased recovery times go. who knows, but w/ myself and a hell of a lot of others have known to be, taking advantage of one's "natural" hormones ie, IGF-1, etc. can really have an effect to a succesful bulk.

and to the original concern, yes dex/malto and any carbs of course do raise insulin levels. its alien to me why u would wanna chance storing more fat w/ drinking a shake during ur WO while everyone knows that insulin levels are so sensitive in response P-WO. and if ur training for more than what has been said, ur problem isn't during WO nutrition, its ur WO.

Agreed. Too bad others don't understand that an overstimulation of insulin has a tendecy to store bodyfat, esp, for endomorphs.

[youngVet]

So Lonny, how much do you weigh?
Also what amount of mix do you use at what exact time?
Do you take another shake after u finish your workout?

Also in doing this could i be screwing up other supplements that i take pre workout such as Diesel fuel reloaded, V12, NOS?
(did not start any of the above yet but i am about to)

[youngVet]

I might try having 1/4 of my postworkout shake 20 min before gym(50/50 mix of malto and dextrose and 2:1 ratio carbs to whey), and sip another 1/4 about 20min into workout. Then post workout have the other half but only use dextrose.

Hows that look?

Also i would appreciate a response to my previous reply regarding my concern over my other preworkout supps.

[youngVet]

Also as for the body fat comments are concerned:
For me when i workout bodyfat is the last of my concerns, working out / post workout is a key window for muscle growth.

I would rather get optimal growth during my workout and be more concerned during some of my other meals and just do more cardio.
Even when i am on a ripping phase i will not skimp on pre and post workout nutrition. I will just make other alterations. (Even now i am on a "slow ripping phase" want to lose about 8lbs fat but only at the rate of 1-2 lbs per week). This rate can easily be done with 30 min cardio twice per week, without hardly any change in diet, i eat relativle clean anyways.

Just my thoughts

[Lonny]

I've never noticed an increase in fat gain since using high GI carbs. I train very intense for about 45 mins and go to failure on all my last drop sets.

I guess i use a large amount of the carbs in my drinks, because using a pre/during workout drink has only cause muscle gains.

Im 180lbs right now at around 13% bf. I was 190 at the same bf last year but went to school and lost a whole lotta muscle from crappy diet (and i stopped using a pre/during workout drink as the gym at school didn't allow it).

I adjust the amount of carbs in my shake to compensate for different bulks and cuts. If im cutting i only use about 25 grams of dextrose pre/during and then again post. This also applies if i know im not gonna give it my all. If im bulking i use 25 dex and 25 malto. I always use 30 grams of whey isolate in both. If im using creatine i use 5 grams in my pre, and 5 grrams in my post.

My post workout shake usually consists of skim milk, scoop of whey isolate, 25 grams of dextrose, and 25-50 grams of raw oats. I know the digestion will be slower but i'll still have carbs and aminos present in the blood from the pre/during shake and can afford for this one to be slower.

All my isolate is CFM, i use PVL Whey Gold, and ISOPURE low carb.

[WillBrink]

Originally posted by youngVet
I just read an article in this months FLEX magazine reagrding pre, during, and post workout nutrition and i am curious to hear u guys thoughts.
The article in a summary breaks down to the following:

WHEN WHAT How much

two-three hours whole food animal protein 40g
preworkout whole food complex carbs 80g

15-30min before whey proltein powder 20 - 40g
and during workout malodextrin/glucose 40-80 g
(ie. 1/2 before other during)

immediately to 1hr after workout whey protein 40g
glucose 40-100g


1 hr after postworkout meal whey protein 40g
malodextrin/glucose 40g
or
whole food meal


1)Does this sound correct? If not what do you feel should be altered?
2)What amount do you suggest for me cosidering i weigh 195 considering i am not looking to put on fat?

3)Are the malodextin powder and dextrose powder from NOW foods ok?

4)Also i already ordered SAN V12, chuck diesel's NOS and Disel fuel reloaded.
My question is that i am suppose to take a serv of the V12 30 min before my workout will taking these drinks at that time and through out my workout impair my results from the V12?
What about taking 2 DFR(100mg caffine per cap...) 30-40 min preworkout?
Also will the DFR having caffine impair my results from the V12 taking them so close together?


Would appreciate you taking the time to share some of your thoughts regarding these questions.

As interesting and new as people are trying to make this sound, do you not notice that this is essentaiily the way people have always done it? If you are eating 5-6 meals per day, and using the right food sources, it stand to reason you will have had a full mixed meal a few hours before you workout. Its common, and I have done it for years now, to mix in some malto based carb drink (e.g., Ultra Fuel. etc) in my water while I workout, followed by a carb and protein drink, then another mixed meal after that. The only slight change is the addition of some protein before the workout, and that too, is already done by some people. It may look shiny and new, but like so any things its more or less dusted off old info.

[WillBrink]

Originally posted by derekmac
It's ill-advised IMO b/c you want that insulin spike post-workout- not while you're working out. Water should be sufficient until then. The danger in taking it during your workout and after your workout is an overstimulation of insulin.

What I consider the real danger is the fact that it may make you rather fat. Pre workout carb/pro, then malto drink during workout, then post workout drinks. Does not take a rocket scientist to see the oxidation of bodyfat will be non existant. There is some data to support that also. No doubt, it should halp ad some LBM but you can bet some fat is going to come with it.

[derekmac]

Exactly my point. The overstimulation of insulin will almost certainly add bodyfat, while to your point it could increase gains. My concern was for those who are endos and others that have a tendecy to put on bodyfat very easily.

[WillBrink]

Originally posted by derekmac
Exactly my point. The overstimulation of insulin will almost certainly add bodyfat, while to your point it could increase gains. My concern was for those who are endos and others that have a tendecy to put on bodyfat very easily.

Well I dont have much faith in the endo, meso, etc thing ohnestly, but the point being, people have to fit such advice into their own situation and in truth, there is very little new info in this advice.

[derekmac]

"There is nothing new under the sun" From the book of Ecclesiastes, from the Bible.