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  1. #61
    spurthole TH3SHR3DD3R's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    ALTER2EGO -to- TH3SHR3DD3R:
    I am referencing scientific evidence about the Periodic Table of the Elements and the fact that it is an example of precision in the natural world. You started off claiming that is not scientific, despite the fact the entire scientific community recognizes the Periodic Table of the Elements as scientific. So much so, that it is considered Periodic Law because of the relationship of all the elements on the Periodic Table to one another. Now you are back-pedaling.


    Wrong.

    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego
    QUESTION #1 to TH3SHR3DD3R: Are you telling this forum that the relationship among all of the elements on the Periodic Table occurred by accident aka "it happened by itself for no explainable reason"?
    Are you telling me you have a link to where I said this?

    No, wait, let me rephrase: are you telling me you have a link to where I said something that you have taken out of context?
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  2. #62
    Pedicabo ego vos et irrum A-GAME's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    ALTER2EGO -to- TH3SHR3DD3R:
    I am referencing scientific evidence about the Periodic Table of the Elements and the fact that it is an example of precision in the natural world. You started off claiming that is not scientific, despite the fact the entire scientific community recognizes the Periodic Table of the Elements as scientific. So much so, that it is considered Periodic Law because of the relationship of all the elements on the Periodic Table to one another. Now you are back-pedaling.


    QUESTION #1 to TH3SHR3DD3R: Are you telling this forum that the relationship among all of the elements on the Periodic Table occurred by accident aka "it happened by itself for no explainable reason"?
    Negged for font. Gooby pls.
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  3. #63
    Registered User sy2502's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    Accidental occurrences are unpredictable and do not produce precision.
    You are actually mistaken here. Quantum Physics is entirely based on randomness. And all of the material world is made of subatomic particles which obey the laws of Quantum Physics. And yet, at a macroscopic scale, this randomness turns into very predictable, precise behavior.
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  4. #64
    Banned germanyt's Avatar
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    Anyone else skipping over the blue text because you're on black background and it's too hard to read?
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  5. #65
    Pronouns I/Me/My Dude.Jon's Avatar
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  6. #66
    Registered User Alter2Ego's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MaximosJ View Post
    Might want to rethink your style of presentation. Came in to read thread. Saw that it began with your own username, "ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE." Saw that it was multicolored. Did not read.
    ALTER2EGO -to- MAXIMOS J:
    I used the same style of presentation at more than two dozen forums where I've debated. If you don't feeling like joining the discussion, then don't.
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  7. #67
    spurthole TH3SHR3DD3R's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    ALTER2EGO -to- MAXIMOS J:
    I used the same style of presentation at more than two dozen forums where I've debated. If you don't feeling like joining the discussion, then don't.
    You're not helping your case here, dude.
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  8. #68
    Just the tip chlaxman's Avatar
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    So basically the argument being made is that because a hydrogen atom behaves like a hydrogen atom and a carbon atom behaves like a carbon atom, God exists because if not, **** wouldn't.
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  9. #69
    Registered User Alter2Ego's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    Accidental occurrences are unpredictable and do not produce precision.
    You are actually mistaken here. Quantum Physics is entirely based on randomness. And all of the material world is made of subatomic particles which obey the laws of Quantum Physics. And yet, at a macroscopic scale, this randomness turns into very predictable, precise behavior.
    ALTER2EGO -to- SY2502:
    You are mistaken, and here's why: Quantum Physics does not claim accidental occurrences produce precision, as you asserted above. In fact, Quantum Physics rely on a level of predictability. For instance, one of the five premises of Quantum Physics is as follows:


    "It is physically impossible to know both the position and the momentum of a particle at the same time. The more precisely one is known, the less precise the measurement of the other is."
    (Source: Oracle Think Quest Education Foundation)


    As stated by another source, specifically, NOVA:


    "So a quantum treatment of electron scattering needs to include not only the quantum nature of the electrons, but also the quantum nature of the photon.... Well, you can calculate the properties of the photon that must be emitted to scatter the electrons. "


    Notice that the first source I quoted indicates that at some level, there is a need for something being "precisely known." It goes so far as to state, that either the position or the momentum of a particle is required to be known, although both are never known at the same time. NOVA goes even further by stating that scientists must know the quantum nature of the electrons as well as the quantum nature of the photon and they must be able to then calculate the properties of the photon that will be emitted once they know the nature of the photon. Suffice it to say, even with the info the scientists gather for their calculations and their predictions, they are frequently wrong.

    Truth be told, no scientist in his or her right mind would argue that precision can result from accidental events—as you erroneously stated. Why so? Because "accident" and "precision" are polar opposites. They cancel each other out. Below once again are the definitions of both terms, which I previously posted in my OP.


    DEFINITION OF "ACCIDENT":

    "a nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results"
    (Source: Websters New Collegiate Dictionary


    DEFINITION OF "PRECISION":

    "the quality of being precise; exactness, accuracy"
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  10. #70
    Registered User sy2502's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    ALTER2EGO -to- SY2502:
    You are mistaken, and here's why: Quantum Physics does not claim accidental occurrences produce precision, as you asserted above.

    So you are contesting the fact that matter behaves randomly at subatomic levels and precisely at macroscopic levels? Please explain.

    In fact, Quantum Physics rely on a level of predictability. For instance, one of the five premises of Quantum Physics is as follows:

    "It is physically impossible to know both the position and the momentum of a particle at the same time. The more precisely one is known, the less precise the measurement of the other is."
    (Source: Oracle Think Quest Education Foundation)
    Yes this is Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, I am very familiar with it, you don't need to give reference for it. But now I am confused. You insist that the universe is so exceptionally precise, and that such precision is in itself proof of the existence of god. But the universe isn't precise at all, as the Uncertainty Principle very clearly states. The universe works on randomness and probability, not on certainties. So again, where is that precision you keep referring to?
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  11. #71
    Crypto-Theist Shill lasher's Avatar
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    I've concluded, based on posting style alone, that Alter2Ego is a JW.

    Am I wrong Alter2Ego?
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  12. #72
    spurthole TH3SHR3DD3R's Avatar
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    You guys might find it interesting to know that Alter2Ego has done this exact same thing on other forums and been banned for it:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=For%...-a&channel=rcs

    And yes, he's a JW. From another forum:

    https://forums.digitalpoint.com/thre...dents.2529278/

    Because YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh presents evidence of his existence, while the others are mere fiction of the imagination. Evidence for the existence of the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible is seen in the precision in the world around us. Precision indicates deliberation. Something deliberately done indicates the presence of an intelligent being.
    He was being asked how he knew his God was real rather than Zeus or others.
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  13. #73
    Pronouns I/Me/My Dude.Jon's Avatar
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    What about the precision of some diseases? They produce undesirable yet precise outcomes.


    OP, can you give me one example of a miracle which has no naturalistic explanation?



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  14. #74
    Registered User of Peace MaximosJ's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TH3SHR3DD3R View Post
    You guys might find it interesting to know that Alter2Ego has done this exact same thing on other forums and been banned for it:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=For%...-a&channel=rcs

    And yes, he's a JW. From another forum:

    https://forums.digitalpoint.com/thre...dents.2529278/



    He was being asked how he knew his God was real rather than Zeus or others.
    Holy crap, that's a lot of copying and pasting... Mind seriously blown. Look at all the different places. hannity.com. agileguitarforum.com. pensacolafishingforum.com. city-data.com. Serious question: does this not count as spam?

    BTW, what you cited doesn't show that he's a JW. Non-JWs have used the word "Jehovah."
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  15. #75
    Registered User Alter2Ego's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    ALTER2EGO -to- SY2502: You are mistaken, and here's why: Quantum Physics does not claim accidental occurrences produce precision, as you asserted above.
    So you are contesting the fact that matter behaves randomly at subatomic levels and precisely at macroscopic levels? Please explain.
    ALTER2EGO -to- SY2502:
    No, I not contesting the supposed "randomness" of the behavior of "matter" (electrons, photons, particles, etc.). I am contesting your assertion that precision can result from accidental events. Quantum Physics does not help your argument along that line because what you and others view as the "random" behavior of matter has no bearing on how the matter came into existence. Not one single scientist can truthfully claim or even prove that electrons, photons, particles, or anything else in the universe resulted from accidental occurrences. They cannot, because accidental occurrences, by definition, cannot result in precision. In fact, scientists acknowledged there is precision within the "matter" they are studying.

    Remember, we are talking two different things here: (1) the precision within matter (electrons, photons, particles, etc.), and (2) the behavior of matter, which scientists—because of their limited knowledge—claim is random behavior. For instance, while the report from NOVA insists Big Bang theory/myth is the explanation for the universe, it concedes as follows (notice the words that are bolded):


    "While the Big Bang theory explains how the universe has expanded and cooled since it began, it is quite silent on what "pulled the trigger," so to speak. We simply don’t know what started the process. How there could be nothing at one moment and an entire baby universe the next? "
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  16. #76
    spurthole TH3SHR3DD3R's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    ALTER2EGO -to- SY2502:
    No, I not contesting the supposed "randomness" of the behavior of "matter" (electrons, photons, particles, etc.). I am contesting your assertion that precision can result from accidental events. Quantum Physics does not help your argument along that line because what you and others view as the "random" behavior of matter has no bearing on how the matter came into existence. Not one single scientist can truthfully claim or even prove that electrons, photons, particles, or anything else in the universe resulted from accidental occurrences. They cannot, because accidental occurrences, by definition, cannot result in precision. In fact, scientists acknowledged there is precision within the "matter" they are studying.

    Remember, we are talking two different things here: (1) the precision within of the matter, and (2) the behavior of of the matter which scientists—because of their limited knowledge—claim is random behavior. For instance, while the report from NOVA insists Big Bang theory/myth is the explanation for the universe, it concedes as follows (notice the words that are bolded):


    "While the Big Bang theory explains how the universe has expanded and cooled since it began, [b]it is quite silent on what "pulled the trigger," so to speak. We simply don’t know what started the process.[b] How there could be nothing at one moment and an entire baby universe the next? "
    God of the gaps logical fallacy.
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  17. #77
    runonsentencesareawesome Indivdude's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    "While the Big Bang theory explains how the universe has expanded and cooled since it began, [b]it is quite silent on what "pulled the trigger," so to speak. We simply don’t know what started the process.[b] How there could be nothing at one moment and an entire baby universe the next? "
    First.... your use of colors are annoying and are not the best ones to use on a black background.

    Second, whats the issue with the fact that they said exactly what the big bang theory is? It is and has always been an explanation of the expansion of the universe after it began. They're just stating that "we don't know" when talking about why or how the universe began. That's correct since we don't.
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    Originally Posted by Indivdude View Post
    First.... your use of colors are annoying and are not the best ones to use on a black background.

    Second, whats the issue with the fact that they said exactly what the big bang theory is? It is and has always been an explanation of the expansion of the universe after it began. They're just stating that "we don't know" when talking about why or how the universe began. That's correct since we don't.
    And therein lies the problem with what he's saying.

    He's equating materialism with agnosticism on the subject, creating a straw man in order to inject an argument where there is none.

    And for that:

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    Originally Posted by sy2502 View Post
    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    In fact, Quantum Physics rely on a level of predictability. For instance, one of the five premises of Quantum Physics is as follows:

    "It is physically impossible to know both the position and the momentum of a particle at the same time. The more precisely one is known, the less precise the measurement of the other is." (Source: Oracle Think Quest Education Foundation)
    Yes this is Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, I am very familiar with it, you don't need to give reference for it. But now I am confused. You insist that the universe is so exceptionally precise, and that such precision is in itself proof of the existence of god. But the universe isn't precise at all, as the Uncertainty Principle very clearly states. The universe works on randomness and probability, not on certainties. So again, where is that precision you keep referring to?
    ALTER2EGO -to- SY2502:
    Again, what you and others view as randomness boils down to "scientists don't understand why" X happens. Often when scientists—mere imperfect humans—cannot deal with the fact that human knowledge has its limits, they claim certain things are "random." You also seem to be ignoring the fact that Quantum Physics is basically a theory and that scientific theories are nothing more than speculations aka "a group of hypotheses that can be disproven."
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    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    ALTER2EGO -to- SY2502:
    Again, what you and others view as randomness boils down to "scientists don't understand why" X happens. Often when scientists—mere imperfect humans—cannot deal with the fact that human knowledge has its limits, they claim certain things are "random." You also seem to be ignoring the fact that Quantum Physics is basically a theory and that scientific theories are nothing more than speculations aka "a group of hypotheses that can be disproven."
    When logical fallacies fail you, always go with deconstructionism.

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  21. #81
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    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    [color=darkblue]ALTER2EGO -to- SY2502:
    No, I not contesting the supposed "randomness" of the behavior of "matter" (electrons, photons, particles, etc.). I am contesting your assertion that precision can result from accidental events. Quantum Physics does not help your argument along that line because what you and others view as the "random" behavior of matter has no bearing on how the matter came into existence.
    I was simply contesting your assertion that randomness cannot give rise to precision. Because it contradicts the world we see. That's all.

    Not one single scientist can truthfully claim or even prove that electrons, photons, particles, or anything else in the universe resulted from accidental occurrences.
    Well, that's not entirely true, virtual particles do seem to randomly form and decay in random fashion. What can be said is that we still don't have definitive proof of how exactly the universe came into existence. This, I hope you realize, includes the creation

    They cannot, because accidental occurrences, by definition, cannot result in precision. In fact, scientists acknowledged there is precision within the "matter" they are studying.

    Remember, we are talking two different things here: (1) the precision within matter (electrons, photons, particles, etc.), and (2) the behavior of matter, which scientists—because of their limited knowledge—claim is random behavior.
    Your distinction about precision is entirely arbitrary. To you, the electron is "precise" because it carries the unit of electric charge, but at the same time, it's not precise because it obeys the Uncertainty Principle. I am sorry, you can't have it both way.

    Oh and for the rest of the posters, I doubt OP is a Jehovah's Witness, for the very simple reason he's actually trying to reason and argue his beliefs, instead of just parroting canned answers.
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  22. #82
    Registered User of Peace MaximosJ's Avatar
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    Not really interested in this argument, but I find it very odd that the OP is using dictionary definitions so centrally in his argument, so I figured I'd ask:

    OP, would you accept this definition of "accident?" -- lack of intention or necessity: chance
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  23. #83
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    Again, OP is a troll who has been banned from numerous forums for this kind of behaviour - spamming without debating and egregious use of annoying fonts.
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  24. #84
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    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    ALTER2EGO -to- CHIMBURGANDY:
    I don't see how the the example of Scientific Law used in my OP (the Periodic Table of the Elements) could possibly be dismissed as "emotional investment" on my part. Scientific facts are independent of whatever you or I or anybody else opine. Facts are stubborn things. They don't change because we don't want to deal with their reality, and it appears you don't want to deal with reality. As a reminder, notice some of what I stated in my OP. Keep your eyes on the words in bold print.



    ALTER2EGO -to- CHIMBURGANDY:
    Since you obviously can't tell the difference between emotionalism and scientific law, I suggest you write the two sources I referenced above (The McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology, and the Encyclopdia Britannica) and inform them that their information is based upon the "emotional investment" of their authors. Let me know how that works out for you.
    No one is doubting that the science is sound and coldly specific, efficient and complicated. No one is trying to dismiss the scientific facts you're stating as anything other than accurate if they indeed are.

    The emotional investment on your part is attributing mathematical and cohesive order to physics found in nature or around the universe as designed or divinely inspired by some creator.

    All you have done so far is spout science, and then say it had to be a god.

    So again, since you avoided detailing the real proof that everyone is interested in hearing, how do you get from science facts and the seemingly guided yet chaotic nature of things to a "GOD." And not just any god, but yours specifically that you are so enthusiastic about proving the existence of.

    You are obviously a fan of facts as your condescending and bratty tone suggests, so where are the facts linking any of what you've talked about to a god that has intervened in our lives and sent us moral landscape and ideas about the nature of the universe that run contrary to every science fact you've mentioned.
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    Registered User Alter2Ego's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TH3SHR3DD3R View Post
    [b]You guys might find it interesting to know that Alter2Ego has done this exact same thing on other forums and been banned for it:[b]

    And yes, he's a JW. From another forum:

    He was being asked how he knew his God was real rather than Zeus or others.
    ALTER2EGO -to- TH3SHR3DD3R:
    Thanks for flattering me by doing internet research on my screen name. I did mention at Post 66 in this thread (directly above on this page) that I've participated at over two dozen religion forums. So why are you repeating what I've already disclosed? And, yes, I tend to debate the same topics because they are meaningful topics to me. However, I do respond directly to people wherever I debate the topics. I don't merely post stuff and disappear.


    BTW: If you're going to tell the story, at least tell it right. I have only been banned from one atheist-moderated forum for discussing "Precision in Nature = Evidence of God" and "Macroevolution Myth". On the other hand, I have been banned from several "Christian" moderated forums for debunking Christendom's 3-prong god (Trinity) and its version of Dante's fictional hell. The fact that I did the debunking with the Bible that they claim they respect didn't set well with the Trinitarians and the hellfire howlers.

    It might also interest you to know that at the atheist-dominated forum, I usually get cursed out by the atheists when they realize they cannot overcome the scientific info and arguments I present. The atheist moderators do absolutely nothing to stop it. In fact, in some instances, atheist moderators join in and harass me when they see that the regular atheist members aren't doing too hot during debates with me.
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  26. #86
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    Originally Posted by lasher View Post
    I've concluded, based on posting style alone, that Alter2Ego is a JW.

    Am I wrong Alter2Ego?
    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    ALTER2EGO -to- TH3SHR3DD3R:

    BTW: If you're going to tell the story, at least tell it right. I have only been banned from one atheist-moderated forum for discussing "Precision in Nature = Evidence of God" and "Macroevolution Myth". On the other hand, I have been banned from several "Christian" moderated forums for debunking Christendom's 3-prong god (Trinity) and its version of Dante's fictional hell. The fact that I did the debunking with the Bible that they claim they respect didn't set well with the Trinitarians and the hellfire howlers.
    Can I call these things or what?

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    Registered User of Peace MaximosJ's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lasher View Post
    Can I call these things or what?

    Damn I'm good.
    Wow, nicely done!
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  28. #88
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    Originally Posted by Mr Beer View Post
    Again, OP is a troll who has been banned from numerous forums for this kind of behaviour - spamming without debating and egregious use of annoying fonts.
    ALTER2EGO -to- MR BEER:
    You already made that false claim in my other thread dealing with Macroevolution myth and I responded to you there. Do you imagine for one minute that repeating the same tripe in two different threads will make it true?

    I have never been banned from any forum for the use of this particular font size and colors. At every single website where I debate (and I've been to over two dozen), I use the same fonts and colors when the website permits color and font choices. Not once have I been banned for doing so. Additionally, I actively debate people at every website where I've had an account. Next you will be claiming that you touch based with the moderators at other websites and they told you that I was banned for doing what you falsely claimed above.

    BTW: I notice you have not once addressed the topic of my two threads where you posted the above inaccuracies. It seems you are only interested in increasing your post count and at the same time raise a false alarm for moderators here--so they can ban me.

    The next time you post the above lies, don't hold your breath waiting for a response from me.
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    spurthole TH3SHR3DD3R's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    ALTER2EGO -to- TH3SHR3DD3R:
    Thanks for flattering me by doing internet research on my screen name. I did mention at Post 66 in this thread (directly above on this page) that I've participated at over two dozen religion forums. So why are you repeating what I've already disclosed? And, yes, I tend to debate the same topics because they are meaningful topics to me. However, I do respond directly to people wherever I debate the topics. I don't merely post stuff and disappear.
    Don't be flattered. I Googled the title of this thread (Precision in Nature = Evidence of God), knowing that the argument within was nothing more than a rehashing of the cosmological fallacy and the weak anthropic principle, wondering if anyone else had worded it in such a way as you did. As it turns out, they haven't. But I did not Google your screen name.

    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego
    BTW: If you're going to tell the story, at least tell it right. I have only been banned from one atheist-moderated forum for discussing "Precision in Nature = Evidence of God" and "Macroevolution Myth". On the other hand, I have been banned from several "Christian" moderated forums for debunking Christendom's 3-prong god (Trinity) and its version of Dante's fictional hell. The fact that I did the debunking with the Bible that they claim they respect didn't set well with the Trinitarians and the hellfire howlers.
    I never said anything about which forums you were banned from.

    Originally Posted by Alter2Ego
    It might also interest you to know that at the atheist-dominated forum, I usually get cursed out by the atheists when they realize they cannot overcome the scientific info and arguments I present. The atheist moderators do absolutely nothing to stop it. In fact, in some instances, atheist moderators join in and harass me when they see that the regular atheist members aren't doing too hot during debates with me. [/COLOR]
    They cannot overcome the scientific info and arguments you present because they are based entirely on lies. I don't blame them for cursing you out. Not really my style, but, hey, if you're dealing with someone that doesn't think that facts are important, and that they can just make up lies as go along, what can you do?
    Last edited by TH3SHR3DD3R; 02-21-2013 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Edited for Color
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    Registered User of Peace MaximosJ's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MaximosJ View Post
    Not really interested in this argument, but I find it very odd that the OP is using dictionary definitions so centrally in his argument, so I figured I'd ask:

    OP, would you accept this definition of "accident?" -- lack of intention or necessity: chance
    bump for OP
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