The Burning Question??

[BigDaza]

Are Amino's a good thing to take and do they work? I thought that your protein provided sufficient amounts of amino's to grow? Is it another money spinner?

[Bignbuff]

You mean BCAA? If so then yes, leucine has been shown to improve protein synthesis rates post workout.

[M1ke323]

I know they are some other posts on this but would you say ICE is worth the money?

[BigDaza]

What is ICE? Remember i'm just a novice at this game.

[M1ke323]

its a BCAA drink by Xtreme Formulations. www.bodybuilding.com carries it

[naturalguy]

Originally posted by BigDaza
Are Amino's a good thing to take and do they work? I thought that your protein provided sufficient amounts of amino's to grow? Is it another money spinner?

If you are taking in adequate protein, then you do not need additional amino acids. Especially if you are taking a good quality whey. I take VP2 and it is loading with BCAA's.

[M1ke323]

I read that additional supplementation of BCAA's is benefiecial? Is what I read incorrect? I want to buy ICE, but don't want to spend that much $ if it won't be beneficial.

[Bignbuff]

No it's not incorrect. Go ahead and buy the ICE.

[M1ke323]

thanks, why are BCAA's beneficial? Do they just help u recover faster or what? Are they worth paying $50-$55?

[Bignbuff]

Taken from "Solving the Post Workout Puzzle II" by John Berardi.

"The final piece of the post-workout puzzle is the management of protein synthesis. And although this area is a little more complex than managing protein breakdown, there are three key ingredients to increasing protein synthesis immediately after workouts:

1. A proper ratio of BCAAs
2. High blood levels of essential amino acids
3. High blood levels of insulin

In the past, a high protein intake was recommended after workouts in order to increase protein synthesis. Actually, in the Protein Roundtable I even recommended a really big protein intake immediately after the workout in order to increase protein synthesis. Well, I'm here to say that I may have been a bit off base. Yeah, yeah, I'm admitting I may have been wrong, so cherish the moment and feel free to poke fun at me the next time you see me.

Based on the research, it appears that the amount of protein intake has very little to do with pushing protein synthesis up after workouts. And in fact, too much could be counter productive (more on this later). More important to increasing protein synthesis after workouts is the ability to rapidly deliver the right type of protein or, more correctly, the right type of amino acids. In a paper published last February, researchers discussed rates of protein synthesis during several conditions (7):

1. At rest with increased insulin levels, protein synthesis increased by about 50% when compared to normal insulin levels (21).
2. At rest with high amino acids in the blood, protein synthesis increased by about 150% when compared to normal blood levels of amino acids (22).
3. After weight training, protein synthesis increased by about 100% vs. pre-training values (23).
4. After weight training with high amino acids in the blood, protein synthesis increased by 200% vs. after weight training with normal blood amino acids (22).
5. After weight training with high amino acids in the blood and high insulin in the blood, protein synthesis increase by over 400% vs. normal post-workout amino acid and insulin levels (7).

The most interesting thing was that in the last condition, the post-workout beverage only contained 6 g of protein and 36 g of carbohydrate. As long as insulin was high and correct amounts of essential amino acids and BCAAs were present, protein synthesis got jacked after the workout.

Several other studies have shown that either infused or orally administered post-workout amino acids are able to rapidly increase protein synthesis as well as rapidly create a positive muscle protein balance after training (24, 25).

Interestingly, it seems that non-essential amino acids are not required for this process and that if only essential amino acids are supplied, there's no difference in the increases in protein synthesis (7, 26). Either way, the key seems to be this "infusion" concept where amino acids are very rapidly delivered to the blood. Again, whey hydrolysate is the quickest orally available protein for the blood unless you want to go ahead and hook up to the amino-acid IV drip.

You may be asking yourself why too much protein could be counterproductive. Well, a very high protein meal can actually cause a release of glucagon. Glucagon is a hormone that antagonizes insulin release. So if you eat some protein with carbs, insulin shoots up. If you eat too much protein with carbs, the insulin release may actually be lower. And if this weren't bad enough, glucagon also has another function that we want to avoid. The darn stuff causes the body to convert amino acids into glucose (a process called gluconeogenesis). So take in too much protein and say goodbye to that special amino acid ratio. Instead those aminos become carbs!

Let's get back to the amino acids. In addition to the requirement for rapidly delivered essential amino acids, BCAAs seem to play a big role in the recovery and increase of protein synthesis after a workout (2,7). Unpublished data presented at the 2000 Canadian Society for Exercise Physiology Meeting shed light on the importance of BCAAs in recovery (2). In endurance athletes, post workout protein synthesis rates will drop by about 30% for up to 6 hours after a training bout. Providing carbohydrates to these athletes, while favorable for increasing muscle glycogen stores, has no ability to increase protein synthesis.

However, a drink providing only the BCAA leucine was able to promote full recovery of post-workout protein synthesis levels to pre-training values. In addition, by adding carbohydrate to the beverage, protein synthesis was higher after the workout than before the workout. Since this beverage increased blood insulin levels, the author of the study concluded that insulin indeed had a synergistic effect with leucine on protein synthesis.

The results of this study and others have lead researchers to believe that within the muscle cell, there's one particular regulatory pathway for protein synthesis that's stimulated by insulin, but dependent on leucine (27). If insulin is present and leucine isn't, then protein synthesis can't maximally be stimulated. If leucine is present and insulin isn't, protein synthesis can't be maximally stimulated. But give 'em both and look out!

Since leucine has this great impact on muscle protein synthesis and since levels of leucine, much like glutamine, decline during exercise, it only makes sense to supplement with leucine after workouts (28). In the end, it appears that leucine, along with protein and carbs, will lead to the greatest increases in protein synthesis.

So what's the best way to rapidly increase protein synthesis after a workout? It seems that the 0.4g/kg of protein hydrolysate plus 0.8g/kg of glucose/glucose polymer plus insulin-stimulating amino acids takes care of the insulin angle. But remember, insulin isn't enough. Providing BCAAs in an ideal ratio is the second part in rapidly stimulating protein synthesis."

[goonies86]

All of Xtreme Formulations' products can be found at 1 f a s t 4 0 0 . c o m at good prices, including 'ICE' among others.

[naturalguy]

That was very informative.

If you take a good quality whey isolate after you train, you do not need to take additional BCAA's.

I use VP2, it is a 100% hydrolized whey isolate. It is 30% BCAA's and absorbed super fast.

It has 23 grams of protien per scoop which equates to 7 grams of BCAA's.

I don't know the BCAA content of ICE but I doubt you would need more than what you could get out of a good quality whey.

[M1ke323]

thanks BignBuff and Natural Guy. I am taking a double dose of ON's 100% Whey and that has a pretty strong BCAA content after my workout so I think I might hold off on the ICE. Although that article does make me think twice.