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Thread: The Official K.O.H.T. V2 Thread
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12-27-2012, 02:23 AM #91
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12-27-2012, 02:25 AM #92
so you essentially run a completely different program then him with different exercise selection with maybe the same type of upper lower fullbody/ power hypertrophy whatever....yet still made gains despite not using his most optimal rep range, and exercise selection which just proves the point i was trying to make before, exercise often eat big and you'll make gains....
EK could have ran laynes program...ate at a 2k calorie surplus and progressively overloaded his body in the gym and he would have had similar results...
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12-27-2012, 02:28 AM #93
LJ uses the same rep ranges from what I remember and as I said multiple times, exercise selection is up to you as long as you're replacing the exercises in the program with exercises that fall under the same movement pattern so you're just picking at straws now.
By the way, nobody is arguing that you won't make gains on PHAT, SS, etc. You just won't make optimal gains.
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12-27-2012, 02:29 AM #94
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12-27-2012, 02:35 AM #95
you are the one arguing it, and the word you use to define optimal refers only to the gains you made as optimal, you seem to be under the influence no one has ever in the histroy of the world made gains like you have over the last year on your own program...
the word optimal will be different for every individual it doesnt even make sense for you to suggest that every person would make the best gains judged by what there genetic potential as a natural novice/beginner trainee using your program and your program alone...when people invariably will respond differently to different types of training...
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12-27-2012, 02:37 AM #96
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ok, I'm not posting anymore lol
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12-27-2012, 02:37 AM #97
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12-27-2012, 02:37 AM #98
The concept of elevated protein synthesis is meaningless in the context he is aruging it.
You can take a ****load of corticosteriods and then when the effects wore off, there would be a compensatory MASSIVE increase in synthesis of protein in your body.
When you break down more proteins, its obvious that you're gonna have rebuild those proteins, but that doesn't guarantee a greater NET effect.
SAID principle and progressive overload are the 2 most important factors by a long shot here, and everyone else is a long second.
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12-27-2012, 02:39 AM #99
I agree with this. Not sure what the OP is going for, but it would be better if the newbie lifter focused on only a few compound movements. Someone recently said that if you do more exercises and fewer sets, you'd recover faster as compared to if you did fewer exercises and more sets. Not sure if broscience.
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12-27-2012, 02:47 AM #100
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12-27-2012, 02:49 AM #101
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12-27-2012, 03:13 AM #102
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One of the things he's put forward from the start of KOHT V2 is that the program is strongly geared towards the concept of 3x per week frequency. How is it going to hit that frequency if you take the isolation exercises out of the power days, hmm? Yes, progressive overload is important but it's still possible with some added isolation exercises; it's more important to have the frequency there as well. I am not saying frequency is more important than progressive overload btw, but you can have progressive overload and frequency go hand in hand.
As for your thoughts about power days being strictly power days; this is a hypertrophy program. The power days are not there to get stronger; they're there for the frequency and to help prevent stalling while progressively overloading. He explains all of this in the video quite intently. Not sure how a lot of you guys here haven't taken the concept of the program in yet.Workout Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=168292533&p=1378041213#post1378041213
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12-27-2012, 03:15 AM #103
"I believe one reason that many young lifters are all over the map in their lifting is because they read a lot of bodybuilding material and believe they need to hit every muscle from every angle in order to look massive and get strong. This simply isn’t the case. Now I do believe there is some merit to hitting body parts at different angles for the advanced competitive bodybuilder (if you don’t fit that description, you shouldn’t be worrying about these things). To have a very full, completely developed physique capable of winning competitive bodybuilding shows, you can’t really narrow down your entire lifting to squats, benches, deadlifts, and chin-ups. You have to do calf raises, too."
http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...-and-strength/
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That's just one article. I would post a few more, but I'm too lazy to do so. That article happened to be on the top of my bookmark list. There's a reason why these newbie programmes focus on the 'big lifts' (squat/bench press/deadlift/ohp/pullup/dip/row), while limiting the isolation work.
That being said, I'm not saying your programme is bad or anything, so I hope you weren't offended.
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12-27-2012, 03:18 AM #104
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"Newbies" have a difficult time with neural efficiency, poor motor skills, balance, etc. A novice that concentrates on the proper form, body mechanics, etc, will have a strong carry over when try something a little more "complex".
You consistently mention the importance of form, (and since we are throwing personal achievement in here), and you don't even have the mind muscle connection perform a proper squat. You've rushed into something that your body isn't prepared for.
I would rather see a basic 3x10 of someone doing goblet squats to depth, then seeing someone pump out a load of useless movements done improperly.
So basically you ran a program that was like his, but with the suggested changes I made.
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12-27-2012, 03:21 AM #105
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12-27-2012, 03:27 AM #106
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.... Umm... you can still have a 3x frequency with the changes I made. (upper/lower/upper/lower/fullbody). I never suggested he change frequency. Isolation movements have nothing to do with frequency.
As for your thoughts about power days being strictly power days; this is a hypertrophy program. The power days are not there to get stronger; they're there for the frequency and to help prevent stalling while progressively overloading. He explains all of this in the video quite intently. Not sure how a lot of you guys here haven't taken the concept of the program in yet.
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12-27-2012, 03:35 AM #107
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You are starting to come across more like them every day.
You're the one that brought in personal achievement as proof of efficacy, not me. You did that the very first post ITT. If you are going to claim that a program is the best to offer based on personal experience, I would think it pertinent that you would be able to properly execute the movements.
Let me ask you this? Are you recommending that everyone squat in the same manner as you? Is that the most optimal way? If I was a novice, and didn't know better, I would do them the same way I saw you do them.
I don't think it's broscience to suggest that someone go through a training period where they learn proper execution, build mind muscle connection and increase neural efficiency. This makes for a much more logical approach.
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12-27-2012, 03:44 AM #108
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Umm, isolation exercises hit the muscles that aren't targeted through the compound/power movements and thus they're necessary, otherwise each muscle wouldn't be targeted 3x a week which is the point of the program. Upper and lower aren't muscles or muscle groups. Just because you're hitting that half of your body, it doesn't mean you're hitting each muscle 3x a week. It's really not that hard to understand.
Have you gone full retard? A power days is a power days is a power day. Idgaf if it's a power or a hypertrophy program, the purpose is the same. OP added power because if you lift more weight on power days, you will be able to lift more on tension days.
Btw, I agree that a beginner needs to have proper form first and they should get the compounds down (I almost always suggest trying Babylover's SS first until they're comfortable with compound lifts). HOWEVER, that doesn't mean KOHT's principles and effectiveness are wrong; you can't dismantle a program because beginners are too lazy or uninspired to learn how to complete exercises effectively from the beginning; that can be a problem with any program, not just KOHT.Workout Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=168292533&p=1378041213#post1378041213
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12-27-2012, 04:02 AM #109
LOL...
Article that Lucifer posted author is Paul Carter...creator of Lift, Run, Bang. a competition powerlifter and elitefts athlete.
KOHT is created by a 16 year old kid that went through puberty while eatting in a surplus and partial squats 280lbs like a boss.
I'd much rather take advise from the big dude who actually looks like he lifts.OG
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12-27-2012, 04:16 AM #110
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12-27-2012, 04:17 AM #111
Strong comparing a picture of a gentleman who's likely been lifting for years and isn't natural to a picture of me from nearly a year ago.
Anecdotal evidence means nothing when it comes to the efficacy of my program but if you want to go that route - post a picture of this dude when he had been lifting for one year. That would be a fairer comparison, and I highly doubt that he'd be able to match my progress.
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12-27-2012, 04:27 AM #112
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12-27-2012, 05:29 AM #113
Paul Carter IS a natty powerlifter.
Would you listen to me or Arnold?
Like it or not... experience matters in this sport and life in general. So the guys that are big and strong and lift a chit ton of weight are the guys that people actually listen to and follow for advise. So people like Jim Wendler, Dave Tate, Donny Shankle, Ripptoe, etc...over people like you. Now run this program for years, win or place in a few competition and then maybe you'll be at their level.
No company is going to hire a 21 year old freshly graduated college student to be a CEO of their company for the same reason... experience.OG
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12-27-2012, 06:11 AM #114
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Just saw this program.
10 out of 10 for principle. The idea of 3x a week frequency is often overlooked and would indeed be very optimal. I think it would make for some good 'lean' gains.
2 out of 10 for exercise selection. This is where it falls down IMO. I think you'd be better of just picking one exercise per movement and doing 50-100 reps with it rather than doing 20 of this, 20 of that and 20 of the other. As others have said, I think that striving to improve your form and proficiency in one exercise variant is better in the long run than doing numerous versions of the same movement.
How do you know which ones are working? You surely won't. Running this program will unfortunately teach you nothing about exercises and their effects. You will only learn about the net effect of the program which makes it educationally almost void.
I am surprised you are a natty. It seems that almost like a light switch was flicked, you became twice the size by going from 2x-3x a week frequency. That's quite something, and I'm sure my eyebrows weren't the only ones raised, but as we are all innocent until proven otherwise, I sincerely congratulate you on how far your physique has come. Perhaps I underestimate the hormonal boost puberty can give. For a person of my age, chemical assistance would almost certainly be required to match that. Anyway, well done.Powerlifter 160/100/195/455kg @ 91.55
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12-27-2012, 06:33 AM #115
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Strong understanding of what a compound movement is. Just because you don't do isolation work every time you lift doesn't mean you are not working it. With all the back and chest work on "POWER" day, he is working all his shoulders and arms as well. While I like a x2 or x3 frequency, I disagree with the sentiment that a novice needs more than one day a week of direct arm work.
Herp derp, that's what I meant when I said to prevent stalling, there's more than one way to say things, brah.
Btw, I agree that a beginner needs to have proper form first and they should get the compounds down (I almost always suggest trying Babylover's SS first until they're comfortable with compound lifts). HOWEVER, that doesn't mean KOHT's principles and effectiveness are wrong; you can't dismantle a program because beginners are too lazy or uninspired to learn how to complete exercises effectively from the beginning; that can be a problem with any program, not just KOHT.
For a condescending *******... you have no clue wtf you're talking about.
This. Eric, can't show photos of what you accomplished as proof of efficacy and in the same breath discredit others accomplishments as signs of their success. That's not the way it works. You don't show proficiency in your own exercise selection.
Anecdotally I wouldn't follow based off your poorly reported results. From an ease of use, I wouldn't follow the program it either. Simply because you make a sweeping claim that it is optimal (i.e. the best), I wouldn't follow your program. The best truly is subjective, and anyhow claiming to have found the holy grail is nothing but a fast talking salesman. The best you seem to do when confronted with a serious question is GIF away. I guess what I'm saying is, you lack credibility, and your attitude just lends to it.
And it's cute how your lacky came in to protect you. I almost didn't recognize "Brad and Cathy", the couple that sent you a question. It so cute that you even have "plants" to talk about how great the program is.
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12-27-2012, 03:36 PM #116
>"Your program sucks and you know nothing about creating a program."
>"How did you get so big on this program? I'd never get that big without steroids."
strong logic lol
Brad is a frequent poster in the Teen Bodybuilding section. He's not allowed to ask me questions? Wot.Last edited by EricKanevskiy; 12-27-2012 at 03:46 PM.
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12-27-2012, 04:18 PM #117
Going to be honest here Eric:
You dont really have the experience, size, or strength to make some of your claims. Yeah you gained some weight, some of it even muscle, but so does every beginner.
I chose my program because the powerlifter that designed it has a few things going for him:
15 years of experience as a Raw Powerlifter.
Has competed as a powerlifter for 10 of those and a couple of years competed in oly lifting before that.
While he is not the strongest raw lifter i know of he has a pretty impressive total of 1600+ and that is just right now as he recovers from an injury.
He is not natty and he freely admits that but he designed his program for when he is both "on" and "off". I follow the "off" part of his program because i have never been "on".
He has been tweaking and improving on his program for half a decade now and is constantly looking for feedback and improvements.
Do you meet any of those?You would be surprised just how much time I have to waste.
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12-27-2012, 04:28 PM #118
No, because I am not a powerlifter, nor have I trained for 15 years.
The fact of the matter is that the principles behind my program are based on science and logic, not personal anecdotes. However, if you want to discuss my progress, I gained over 25 pounds of muscle in my first year of lifting. Nobody else in this thread can say the same.
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12-27-2012, 04:56 PM #119
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12-27-2012, 05:03 PM #120
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