Help me make sense of this

[KenJenkinsII]

First of all, I am an Intermittent Faster. I have been fasting for 20 hours and feeding for 4 hours but I was not taking in enough of my macros in that window so I went to the standard 16-8 protocol. During all of this I calculated my TDEE and have been trying to eat at a 500-1,000 calorie deficit. In doing so I have actually gained weight, when before I was actually still making gains eating very few calories but everything I ate was lean protein and clean carbs. I know some of you stick closely to TDEE and others only count macros but how does this make any sense if I am still eating at a deficit?

[drudixon]

First of all, I am an Intermittent Faster. I have been fasting for 20 hours and feeding for 4 hours but I was not taking in enough of my macros in that window so I went to the standard 16-8 protocol. During all of this I calculated my TDEE and have been trying to eat at a 500-1,000 calorie deficit. In doing so I have actually gained weight, when before I was actually still making gains eating very few calories but everything I ate was lean protein and clean carbs. I know some of you stick closely to TDEE and others only count macros but how does this make any sense if I am still eating at a deficit?

Your metabolism established a set point at the lower calorie level.

[Smelly bull]

First of all, I am an Intermittent Faster. I have been fasting for 20 hours and feeding for 4 hours but I was not taking in enough of my macros in that window so I went to the standard 16-8 protocol. During all of this I calculated my TDEE and have been trying to eat at a 500-1,000 calorie deficit. In doing so I have actually gained weight, when before I was actually still making gains eating very few calories but everything I ate was lean protein and clean carbs. I know some of you stick closely to TDEE and others only count macros but how does this make any sense if I am still eating at a deficit?

Maybe your TDEE is off
Or your tracking methodology is off.

Example, I am in the process of dropping weight (hopefully fat). It took me roughly two weeks to determine my true TDEE and to ensure the tools i use to track my food are correct. Turns out I was to aggressive in my TDEE (I was losing weight to fast) and some of my food tracking had the incorrect macros.

[KenJenkinsII]

Your metabolism established a set point at the lower calorie level.

So I was better off staying where I was? I was struggling to eat 2,000 calories a day, but like I said I was making gains still and I have been lifting for over a year so I don't think it was from being a noob.

[KenJenkinsII]

Maybe your TDEE is off
Or your tracking methodology is off.

Example, I am in the process of dropping weight (hopefully fat). It took me roughly two weeks to determine my true TDEE and to ensure the tools i use to track my food are correct. Turns out I was to aggressive in my TDEE (I was losing weight to fast) and some of my food tracking had the incorrect macros.

This makes sense! I do not have a physically demanding job, hence the reason I am looking for help on BB.com while I am at work.

[ironwill2008]

...have been trying to eat at a 500-1,000 calorie deficit. In doing so I have actually gained weight....

If you've gained weight, you aren't actually in a calorie deficit.

[drudixon]

This makes sense! I do not have a physically demanding job, hence the reason I am looking for help on BB.com while I am at work.

Just remember, when calculating BMR for a given weight, it's a guideline. It's a constantly moving target that varies depending on diet, rest, stress, how fat you already are, etc. You can I could be identical weights and depending on the circumstances have as much as a 1,000 calorie per day difference in TDEE. I'll say this, the longer you run at a lower calorie level, the more likely your body will adjust to be able to break even at that calorie level. Eat more to get your metabolism run faster, then start mixing in your lower calorie days. You'll be running at the faster metabolism then and that should help you lose weight again. I used a ladder calorie approach to lose 30lbs myself last year.

Keep in mind, you may gain a lb or two while you reset, but it'll get you running faster, which is what you want.

[oldsuperman]

Counting calories is the least efficient way to drop BF and keep and build muscle. Calories are nothing more than a measuring unit of energy burned. Where that energy is burned depends on so many factors. Are you burning fat cals or muscles? Are you burning stored food in you digestive system? Depending what you eat and when you eat, how and when you train. What kind of training you do. All this will determine if you are burning stored food, muscle or fat cals. All my clients whether actors, models, competitors or bbers are all put on a strict gram counting diet. How, when and what they train is also factored in. Again a calorie isn't all the same in where it comes from and how it is used.

First of all, I am an Intermittent Faster. I have been fasting for 20 hours and feeding for 4 hours but I was not taking in enough of my macros in that window so I went to the standard 16-8 protocol. During all of this I calculated my TDEE and have been trying to eat at a 500-1,000 calorie deficit. In doing so I have actually gained weight, when before I was actually still making gains eating very few calories but everything I ate was lean protein and clean carbs. I know some of you stick closely to TDEE and others only count macros but how does this make any sense if I am still eating at a deficit?

[KenJenkinsII]

Counting calories is the least efficient way to drop BF and keep and build muscle. Calories are nothing more than a measuring unit of energy burned. Where that energy is burned depends on so many factors. Are you burning fat cals or muscles? Are you burning stored food in you digestive system? Depending what you eat and when you eat, how and when you train. What kind of training you do. All this will determine if you are burning stored food, muscle or fat cals. All my clients whether actors, models, competitors or bbers are all put on a strict gram counting diet. How, when and what they train is also factored in. Again a calorie isn't all the same in where it comes from and how it is used.

You were who I was referring to when I said some only care about macros! I was definitely burning the right calories as I was getting leaner but still making gains every week in my lifts, but the low number of calories I was taking in freaked me out and I let it get to me, when I should have just continued to do what was working because it worked for me.

[Marius_Ursus]

I'm with oldsupes on this. I'm an IF guy, and I only keep track of macros. Funny thing is my lifting schedule has changed a lot. I used to train fasted in the morning (with dessicated liver, L-Arginine, and a cup of coffee) and packed all my food in between Noon and 8 PM. I was also sprinting three times/week. I got dropped quite a bit of weight, but I don't know how much was muscle. I looked better, though. My lifts were still climbing as well.

Since my youngest was born I've had to train in the evenings after he goes to bed, so I'm no longer training fasted, and I also don't sprint since it's well past sunset before I train. My conditioning switched over to high-volume kettlebell swings, and now my bodyweight is staying pretty constant, but there's more definition going on in my upper body.

Still have a long way to go...

Anyway, yeah, I focus on getting my allotment of protein daily and don't keep track of my calories at all. Fats and carbs I don't track very closely, just sort of "keep an eye" on my diet, so as not to get a lot of carbs.

Good luck.

[MarkS51]

First of all, I am an Intermittent Faster. I have been fasting for 20 hours and feeding for 4 hours but I was not taking in enough of my macros in that window so I went to the standard 16-8 protocol. During all of this I calculated my TDEE and have been trying to eat at a 500-1,000 calorie deficit. In doing so I have actually gained weight, when before I was actually still making gains eating very few calories but everything I ate was lean protein and clean carbs. I know some of you stick closely to TDEE and others only count macros but how does this make any sense if I am still eating at a deficit?

I'm also with OldSuperman on this but with two addendums: 1) Besides calories, my weight is the last thing I worry about. You said in reply to someone that your weight climbed as you were leaning out. If you're sure about that, what's the problem? It means you're adding muscle which is heavier per unit of volume than fat. Sounds like your plan is working.

2) Fasting for extended periods can actually cause your body to hold onto fat as it goes into "starvation" mode. Do it enough and you can go catabolic. That's why right up until I walked out on stage I ate 5 meals daily. We just continuously dialed down the carb/cal count for the last 2-3 weeks. That keeps the metabolism red-lined and the body going to any remaining fat to make up needed energy. Of course, that's to totally lean out and you won't add muscle that way but the principle is the same. In five months of show prep I never ate less than 5 meals daily, bulking or leaning, just tweaked the formula.

[KenJenkinsII]

I'm also with OldSuperman on this but with two addendums: 1) Besides calories, my weight is the last thing I worry about. You said in reply to someone that your weight climbed as you were leaning out. If you're sure about that, what's the problem? It means you're adding muscle which is heavier per unit of volume than fat. Sounds like your plan is working.

2) Fasting for extended periods can actually cause your body to hold onto fat as it goes into "starvation" mode. Do it enough and you can go catabolic. That's why right up until I walked out on stage I ate 5 meals daily. We just continuously dialed down the carb/cal count for the last 2-3 weeks. That keeps the metabolism red-lined and the body going to any remaining fat to make up needed energy. Of course, that's to totally lean out and you won't add muscle that way but the principle is the same. In five months of show prep I never ate less than 5 meals daily, bulking or leaning, just tweaked the formula.

I was actually referring to gaining weight when I tried to increase my calories to reach my deficit of my TDEE. At that point I felt like a total Fat A**

[RobertD2]

I was actually referring to gaining weight when I tried to increase my calories to reach my deficit of my TDEE. At that point I felt like a total Fat A**

Did you gain weight or did you gain water?

Did your carb/salt intake change? When are you weighing? Has the time changed? I'm guessing with IF that timing of weigh ins matter .

[KenJenkinsII]

Did you gain weight or did you gain water?

Did your carb/salt intake change? When are you weighing? Has the time changed? I'm guessing with IF that timing of weigh ins matter .

I doubt it was water weight, I didn't eat differently except for the quantity of food I ate and my water intake is 1.5 to 2 gallons per day and that didn't change either. I quit eating at 8 p.m. every night even on my cheat day and I weigh after my first pee in the morning every day.

[EjnarKolinkar]

I doubt it was water weight, I didn't eat differently except for the quantity of food I ate and my water intake is 1.5 to 2 gallons per day and that didn't change either. I quit eating at 8 p.m. every night even on my cheat day and I weigh after my first pee in the morning every day.

What did you come up with for estimate of TDEE. How long have you been 500-1000 calories a day under that calculation. How much weight did you gain that you are reacting too.

[KenJenkinsII]

What did you come up with for estimate of TDEE. How long have you been 500-1000 calories a day under that calculation. How much weight did you gain that you are reacting too.

Fitness Frog Calculated my TDEE at 3343 calories and I remained within 500-1000 calories of that over the last week and I gained 3 lbs in a WEEK! I recalculated as working out on 1-3 days a week and it lowered it to 2966 which is closer to what I was eating before (usually around 2,000 calories) so I am probably going to make my way back towards that and just try to increase my protein intake.

[acrawlingchaos]

If you've gained weight, you aren't actually in a calorie deficit.

This.



OP, are you counting calories? Including all liquids, sauces, condiments? Are you weighing all your portions?

[KenJenkinsII]

This.



OP, are you counting calories? Including all liquids, sauces, condiments? Are you weighing all your portions?

Brother I don't use sauces. I eat chicken and lean beef with complex carbs and the occasional olive oil. I believe after all the input my TDEE is probably lower than I calculated which would explain why I was not at a deficit.

[EjnarKolinkar]

Fitness Frog Calculated my TDEE at 3343 calories and I remained within 500-1000 calories of that over the last week and I gained 3 lbs in a WEEK! I recalculated as working out on 1-3 days a week and it lowered it to 2966 which is closer to what I was eating before (usually around 2,000 calories) so I am probably going to make my way back towards that and just try to increase my protein intake.

Don't get too exited about a weeks worth of scale movement or lack thereof. 3400 is high for most desk jockeys packing a few extra pounds with your build. My TDEE is pretty consistent at 2800 subject to ish. 1/2 desk half fieldwork only moderate workouts 3-4 days a week. Not that yours will be the same. You get to figure that out, I takes time.

Stop by

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121703981

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=136691851

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=123915821

For some good reading.

[rand18m]

Fitness Frog Calculated my TDEE at 3343 calories and I remained within 500-1000 calories of that over the last week and I gained 3 lbs in a WEEK! I recalculated as working out on 1-3 days a week and it lowered it to 2966 which is closer to what I was eating before (usually around 2,000 calories) so I am probably going to make my way back towards that and just try to increase my protein intake.

The bulk of which is likely fluid gain with the increased calorie intake, i.e. carb intake.

You're original post indicates you gained weight while in a steep deficit, I am now under the assumption that wasn't the case, the weight gain came after going back to your former TEE, which if you've lost weight you should assume has changed.


I don't know why you would want to be on such a steep deficit, keep it to 20% of TEE max. Do you have macro targets or are you simply eating at a caloric deficit?
How sure are you with your tracking?
How did you calculate your TEE?
Why on earth are you drinking so much water?

[oldsuperman]

I agree also with this. My clients are forbid to step on the scales.

I'm also with OldSuperman on this but with two addendums: 1) Besides calories, my weight is the last thing I worry about. You said in reply to someone that your weight climbed as you were leaning out. If you're sure about that, what's the problem? It means you're adding muscle which is heavier per unit of volume than fat. Sounds like your plan is working.

2) Fasting for extended periods can actually cause your body to hold onto fat as it goes into "starvation" mode. Do it enough and you can go catabolic. That's why right up until I walked out on stage I ate 5 meals daily. We just continuously dialed down the carb/cal count for the last 2-3 weeks. That keeps the metabolism red-lined and the body going to any remaining fat to make up needed energy. Of course, that's to totally lean out and you won't add muscle that way but the principle is the same. In five months of show prep I never ate less than 5 meals daily, bulking or leaning, just tweaked the formula.

[acrawlingchaos]

Brother I don't use sauces. I eat chicken and lean beef with complex carbs and the occasional olive oil. I believe after all the input my TDEE is probably lower than I calculated which would explain why I was not at a deficit.

The question is.... are you actually counting calories and weighing all portions?

[rand18m]

I agree also with this. My clients are forbid to step on the scales.

But the Op has stated that he has been eating at up to 1000 kcal deficit, if he is gaining weight at that large of a deficit he is either not counting correcting or he has his TEE way off base. He also stated that he increased his caloric intake after his cut, back to his former TEE, then gained weight, so he is clearly confused or either I'm confused with his posts. Bottom line is if he is engaging in a really steep deficit from his TEE then he is likely not going to enjoy the results, if his deficit is too small then he will stall. We really don't know where he is at, so hopefully he will post more information, such as his TEE and his macro breakdown if he wants an opinion on what he is doing!

I would be surprised if he has gained substantial muscle mass on a 25-30% deficit. IMO

[acrawlingchaos]

I'm also with OldSuperman on this but with two addendums: 1) Besides calories, my weight is the last thing I worry about. You said in reply to someone that your weight climbed as you were leaning out. If you're sure about that, what's the problem? It means you're adding muscle which is heavier per unit of volume than fat. Sounds like your plan is working.

2) Fasting for extended periods can actually cause your body to hold onto fat as it goes into "starvation" mode. Do it enough and you can go catabolic. That's why right up until I walked out on stage I ate 5 meals daily. We just continuously dialed down the carb/cal count for the last 2-3 weeks. That keeps the metabolism red-lined and the body going to any remaining fat to make up needed energy. Of course, that's to totally lean out and you won't add muscle that way but the principle is the same. In five months of show prep I never ate less than 5 meals daily, bulking or leaning, just tweaked the formula.

I agree also with this. My clients are forbid to step on the scales.

I disagree on both accounts.

The scale is an excellent tool, and needed for those who are dieting (i.e. not cutting, pardon the semantics). If you are overweight, and trying to lose weight, the scale needs to be going DOWN. Old Sup, while your clients are not allowed to step on the scale, I would imagine you are at least keeping track of it (or at least I would hope so). If he doesn't have access to a trainer, it would make sense he track his weight.

Starvation mode ISN'T something that the OP needs to worry about. Granted the metabolism does slow down after a prolonged diet, but your metabolism isn't going to outchase a deficit. Granted, at contest level conditioning, the game changes a little.

Until the OP is under 12-14% bf, he just needs to eat at a deficit (eat less), and make sure the scale moves down.




While some can have great success with intuitive eating, many fail. If you are failing with intuitive eating, and have no access to a trainer, I would recommend you start counting.

[BalhamBeast]

I know I gained 10lbs, most of it fat, when I tried IF (eating just in the evenings). I'd be starving and freezing during the day and then I'd wolf down a lot of food at night. Obviously my metabolism slowed.

Men usually tolerate IF better than women but it may just not be right for you, or at least, the length and frequency of your fasting periods may need a tweak. I've found I'm fine if I skip eating in the mornings but I can't skip breakfast and lunch without adverse effects. Once you've tinkered with your calories and macros you might want to make some changes here.

[acrawlingchaos]

I know I gained 10lbs, most of it fat, when I tried IF (eating just in the evenings). I'd be starving and freezing during the day and then I'd wolf down a lot of food at night. Obviously my metabolism slowed.

Men usually tolerate IF better than women but it may just not be right for you, or at least, the length and frequency of your fasting periods may need a tweak. I've found I'm fine if I skip eating in the mornings but I can't skip breakfast and lunch without adverse effects. Once you've tinkered with your calories and macros you might want to make some changes here.

If you gained weight, your metabolism didn't slow. You ate too much. You do not GAIN weight on a stalled metabolism, it doesn't happen.

If intermittent fasting isn't working for you, don't use it. Though if you had been counting, you would have realized you were over eating.

[sawoobley]

Counting calories is the least efficient way to drop BF and keep and build muscle. Calories are nothing more than a measuring unit of energy burned. Where that energy is burned depends on so many factors. Are you burning fat cals or muscles? Are you burning stored food in you digestive system? Depending what you eat and when you eat, how and when you train. What kind of training you do. All this will determine if you are burning stored food, muscle or fat cals. All my clients whether actors, models, competitors or bbers are all put on a strict gram counting diet. How, when and what they train is also factored in. Again a calorie isn't all the same in where it comes from and how it is used.

I must be reading this post wrong because a lot of people are agreeing with it. Counting calories is an efficient way to lose weight. It is the only way to lose weight. People use various strategies to lose weight but in the end it comes down to putting yourself in a calorie deficit. Counting macros is essentially counting calories since each macro has an assigned caloric value. If you are lifting heavy and in a small to moderate caloric deficit you will burn primarily fat. Leaner people run into problems when their calorie deficit is to large for extended periods of time and they start to lose muscle. When and how you train will not matter significantly IMO if you are lifting heavy and hitting your major muscles when it comes to burning fat or muscle. Calories are all the same as long as minimum protein and fat macros are hit. Granted micronutrients are important for health but for weight loss it really isn't that complicated. Lift heavy and be in a moderate deficit and you will lose weight.

2) Fasting for extended periods can actually cause your body to hold onto fat as it goes into "starvation" mode. Do it enough and you can go catabolic. That's why right up until I walked out on stage I ate 5 meals daily. We just continuously dialed down the carb/cal count for the last 2-3 weeks. That keeps the metabolism red-lined and the body going to any remaining fat to make up needed energy. Of course, that's to totally lean out and you won't add muscle that way but the principle is the same. In five months of show prep I never ate less than 5 meals daily, bulking or leaning, just tweaked the formula.

Intermittent fasting will not put you in starvation mode. The number of meals you consume per say is not relevant to how fast or slow your metabolism is. It is one of the reasons why people can do so well on intermittent fasting type of feeding protocols. I suggest people read the sticky and related comment linked below. Unless a person is prepping for a contest I don't see any reason in giving when you eat too much thought or how many times per day. Going by personal preference, convenience and how you feel should suffice.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=123915821
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post678321011

Brother I don't use sauces. I eat chicken and lean beef with complex carbs and the occasional olive oil. I believe after all the input my TDEE is probably lower than I calculated which would explain why I was not at a deficit.

At 2000 calories per day you are likely not counting your calories correctly. I seriously doubt you should aim to go below that.

[stephanielynn76]

I must be reading this post wrong because a lot of people are agreeing with it. Counting calories is an efficient way to lose weight. It is the only way to lose weight. People use various strategies to lose weight but in the end it comes down to putting yourself in a calorie deficit. Counting macros is essentially counting calories since each macro has an assigned caloric value. If you are lifting heavy and in a small to moderate caloric deficit you will burn primarily fat. Leaner people run into problems when their calorie deficit is to large for extended periods of time and they start to lose muscle. When and how you train will not matter significantly IMO if you are lifting heavy and hitting your major muscles when it comes to burning fat or muscle. Calories are all the same as long as minimum protein and fat macros are hit. Granted micronutrients are important for health but for weight loss it really isn't that complicated. Lift heavy and be in a moderate deficit and you will lose weight.



Intermittent fasting will not put you in starvation mode. The number of meals you consume per say is not relevant to how fast or slow your metabolism is. It is one of the reasons why people can do so well on intermittent fasting type of feeding protocols. I suggest people read the sticky and related comment linked below. Unless a person is prepping for a contest I don't see any reason in giving when you eat too much thought or how many times per day. Going by personal preference, convenience and how you feel should suffice.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=123915821
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post678321011



At 2000 calories per day you are likely not counting your calories correctly. I seriously doubt you should aim to go below that.

^^I agree with this guy.

[drudixon]

Regarding mutiple meals' impact on weight loss, it's about hunger management. As we learn more about ghrelin, leptin, neuropeptides, cortisol, norepinephrine, insulin, etc, the more we realize how varied individuals can be. IF is a calorie management tool, and or course, calories are the primary factor of weight loss / weight gain. That said, for the intermittent fasters, you're actually making the process of losing weight harder than it could be were you to take in the identical number of calories across a wider time span. Reason being, low insulin results in high ghrelin. High ghrelin results in low leptin (among many other variables).

This appetite inhibition is long-term, in contrast to the rapid inhibition of eating by cholecystokinin (CCK) and the slower suppression of hunger between meals mediated by PYY3-36. The absence of leptin (or its receptor) leads to uncontrolled food intake and resulting obesity. Several studies have shown fasting or following a very-low-calorie diet (VLCD) lowers leptin levels.[8] In the short-term, leptin might be an indicator of energy balance. This system is more sensitive to starvation than to overfeeding; leptin levels change more when food intake decreases than when it increases.[9] The dynamics of leptin due to an acute change in energy balance may be related to appetite and eventually to food intake. Although this is a new hypothesis, some data already support it.[10][11]

Another point, it's not just about these hormone levels, but also the numbers of receptors an individual has to respond to those hormones.

Regarding meal composition, even identical macro value meals with different constituent parts metabolize quite differently (take coconut oil vs olive oil vs soybean oil).

Furthermore, science also shows a direct correlation between sleep and energy metabolism. Less sleep, lower energy metabolism, and higher levels of hormones that make you keep / make adipose fat. Of course, other factors play a part, FFM (fat free mass), age, height, etc.

I'm jumping all around here because the variables in energy metabolism jump around. There's so little we know or understand. That said, we all need to recognize that calories in vs out is relative. So before we collectively trash posters or assume they absolutely must be adding things up wrong, there needs to be a degree of latitude we impart to said posters. I realize we operate off of generalizations: most people calculate calories wrong, most people measure FFM wrong, calories are the single biggest determinant of weight loss, but please bear in mind, weight loss is NOT a one size fits all calculation.

[HairyScandinavian]

First of all, I am an Intermittent Faster. I have been fasting for 20 hours and feeding for 4 hours but I was not taking in enough of my macros in that window so I went to the standard 16-8 protocol. During all of this I calculated my TDEE and have been trying to eat at a 500-1,000 calorie deficit. In doing so I have actually gained weight, when before I was actually still making gains eating very few calories but everything I ate was lean protein and clean carbs. I know some of you stick closely to TDEE and others only count macros but how does this make any sense if I am still eating at a deficit?

I tried IF for two weeks and ate literally the exact same foods except that I couldn't eat all of what I used to on a 6 meal/day protocol. I think I gained 5-6 lbs over that two week stretch and pulled the plug.