creatine causing cancer???????? READ ON!!!

**joehagyHH** · 02-19-2002, 07:38 AM

hey guys i have seen some concerns on here lately about creatine causing cancer........ well im here to say IT DOESNT CAUSE CANCER. Now here is a simple solution on why some people think creatine is linked to cancer. now certain people do have genes called Oncogenes, which are genes that can cause cancer..... these genes can stay dorment in ones bodies then be activated later........ sometimes they are not dorment and are active from birth. what activates these Oncogenes differs from person to person.... the absortion of high amounts of creatine( say 10-20 grams a day for a prolonged period of time) may be what activates these Oncogenes in some people, causing cancer.

**RetiredMod** · 02-19-2002, 10:52 AM

Joe, I understand what you are saying. However like I said in the other post, that chemical which, when reacted with a strong acid (ie stomach acid) produces cyanide and cyanide is cancerous. I don't know how much cyanide it takes to give one cancer I am sure its different in everyone, or whether it is cumulative. No one knows, I disagree saying that you know for sure it doesnt because unless you are able to answer the questions I just posed (maybe you can, and if so please share I am curious) then you can not be certain. Someone said that creatine was 100% pure but I have read no response as to how supplement companies went about extracting this chemical from the creatine, as it is produced during creatine production. I'm not saying it causes cancer, but I'm not saying it doesn't. From what I've read so far no one else can say so either. If anyone has the time/inclination/resources to answer these questions please do and post I am curious at arriving at an answer. But I think it is short sighted to just plainly state that it does not cause cancer as none of us can answer the questions I posed. (not meant to flame anyone in anyway)

**SuperSaiyonGoku** · 02-19-2002, 11:14 AM

ur worried about creatine causing cancer???? look at ciggerettes... now they cause cancer.. everyone knows... but it dont stop people smokin does it???... people who have been smoking for years wont get cancer... so what makes u think that 5g a day of creatine for a month will cause cancer in someone??? i think all that reading uve dun has blurred ur head.. creatine is SAFE!!

**RetiredMod** · 02-19-2002, 11:17 AM

Prove it to me Super. That's all I am asking for. I've given some proof which isnt hard evidence but leads one to think otherwise and have yet to see anyone rebut that argument with any serious facts.

**SuperSaiyonGoku** · 02-19-2002, 11:19 AM

i aint seen no proof......... show me proof that creatine isn't safe

**RetiredMod** · 02-19-2002, 11:23 AM

First of all that's a stupid thing to say. It's like saying okay I will take this experimental serum, as long as you cant prove it isnt safe then it must be safe! You should be thinking the opposite, unless something can be proved that it is safe then one should assume it isn't. Read the other post dont feel like repeating myself its something like "can someone assure me creatine is 100% safe???" its a few posts down. Although the stuff I went through is not completely hard science and leaves questions in the air. The fact that questions are left in the air as to whether or not it can cause cancer and no one seems to care to answer them, they just want to say oh well i think its safe, is a bit disturbing. Of course if none of you haven't noticed by now I am playing devil's advocate a bit in this debate, but I think people should research just like people should researching juicing before they take the plunge.

**psikooz** · 02-19-2002, 11:26 AM

uh no, it doesnt cause cancer, creatine is just amino acids, you mother ****ers!
stop acting likes its a drug

**SuperSaiyonGoku** · 02-19-2002, 11:39 AM

everything we eat drink or do in life has a POTENTIAL side effect.. i think the thing that worries u about creating is the unknown.. since there is no solid proof of what creatine does everyone assumes the worst.. ok i aint callin u a liar about ur cancer thing.. creatine may cause probs in SOME people but so does coffee.. my point is that all our bodies react differently to different products.. some of us cant have too much sugar cos we are diabetic.. some are allergic to shell food.. nuts... maybe people who have issues with creatine are 'allergic' to it, maybe not.. the bottom line is everything has the potential to harm or even kill u ifn not used properly and not taken in moderation...

how many of u lot drink?? even jus socially.. alcohol is a known poison that 'can kill u' yet loads of people flood the bars every week n drink.. i bet more people would be willing to take a drink of scotch over a gram of creatine because of the unknown or limited knowledge of the effects of creatine.. creatine is found in meat.. so how can it be dangerous??? creatine is natural

there are many things we have no proof of long term side effects.. eg.. microwaves.. hmmmmmmmm food cooked with radiation.. im sure its as safe as they claim.. how about cell fones?? do u know how much radiation is goin thru ur head when u make a call?? i think creatine in moderate doses will be no worse then any other 'long-term' risk out there..

people out there with the liver and kidney problems are not showing long-term side effects, they are showing short-term effects. i think we have enuff short term research to conclude some peoples bodies handle creatine safely n others have issues.. if u are scare to take creating jus cos of the possible long term side effects u betteapre-heat your oven to 350 the next time you want to reheat your leftovers and sell the microwave.

**RetiredMod** · 02-19-2002, 11:51 AM

If you read my post you would know that I have and will take creatine. My point is that we _don't know_. So I don't think teenagers who are lifting recreationally should use it. Thats my main point. Also the cyanide thing I talked about does occur in creatine. Read my other post. That it a fact. Cyanide is cancerous. Cellphones, microwaves, they are reguated. Is creatine? Nope. Not regulated by anyone. The two questions that need to be answered are as follows: How much cyanide might pose a cancerous threat? How long does that cyanide stay in our system (to determine whether or not it is cumulative)? psikooz you are a moron you dont even know what creatine does I bet, of course it is a drug, and it is not amino acids dip****. Do a _little_ bit of research before shooting off your mouth.

**Thorazine** · 02-19-2002, 12:14 PM

Why don't you show me this study McBain. I just searched through medical journals and this is the closest thing I could come up with:

During the industrial production of creatine monohydrate from sarcosine and cyanamide, variable amounts of contaminants (dicyandiamide, dihydrotriazines, creatinine, ions) are generated.

The only problem with this is is how the company monitors the amount of contamiments. If your creatine says "creapure" on it, there's a HIGH chance that the contaminents are LOW. Stick to reputable brands.

Thorazine

**SDAthlete** · 02-19-2002, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by psikooz
uh no, it doesnt cause cancer, creatine is just amino acids, you mother ****ers!
stop acting likes its a drug

HAHHAHAHH ure a fool

**RetiredMod** · 02-19-2002, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Thorazine
Why don't you show me this study McBain. I just searched through medical journals and this is the closest thing I could come up with:

During the industrial production of creatine monohydrate from sarcosine and cyanamide, variable amounts of contaminants (dicyandiamide, dihydrotriazines, creatinine, ions) are generated.

The only problem with this is is how the company monitors the amount of contamiments. If your creatine says "creapure" on it, there's a HIGH chance that the contaminents are LOW. Stick to reputable brands.

Thorazine

The study studied creatine brands from all over. Unless I am mistaken there are only like 15-20 big makers of creatine, then they usually sell it to companies like MuscleTech, and they add all the **** they want and jack up the price. This study hit all the big companies. I'm trying to find this study its driving me crazy, I know it was from a link from the webpage www.members.tripod.com/Dramo13/links.html
It's one of those links any help would be appreciated sifting through

I've had one of the worst/busiest weeks of my life so I don't have much time (grandmother was sick and died, and one of my close family friends was diagnosed with cancer and I'm still dealing with this FARKING hand injury so I can't even lift to help me deal with all this ****..well enough ranting) so any help looking through would be great. I don't look at this discussion as an argument but as a collaboration for those involved at seeking the truth (Socratic if you will), so please do the same. Thanks Thor for trying to look through stuff, I hadn't read about anything related to what this study suggests besides this article. I've been curious for a while to look into it more to find out the truth behind it. It was in the articles section or supplement info section of one of those pages. I'll look as much as my time affords. Thanks

**dez/null** · 02-19-2002, 02:25 PM

he hit the nail with a hammer

**RetiredMod** · 02-19-2002, 03:03 PM

Woohoo, found the site

Check it out: www.brinkzone.com/creatine.html
Some of the conclusions I drew were on my own. So it still leaves the two questions in the air, How much hydrogen cyanide gas can cause problems, and what is it's life-expectancy in the body? I will try to a bit of research on this but as I mention my time is limited and help would be appreciated.

**SuperSaiyonGoku** · 02-19-2002, 03:06 PM

they did some tests on hamsters about the effects of creatine on the body ova a long time... do u see anything wrong with the one in the pic???

my case proved lol

**RetiredMod** · 02-19-2002, 03:53 PM

bump any reactions to article?

**RetiredMod** · 02-19-2002, 10:53 PM

No responses?

**Thorazine** · 02-19-2002, 11:12 PM

I just read the article....I don't see what conclusions you CAN draw from it.

The guy stated in his own article that "The chemist I spoke to did not seem to think so and the safety data with animals would tend to support this [regarding possibility of cyanide gas being produced]"

The fact of the matter is, if cyanide gas were produced, you'd probably get very sick and be rushed to the hospital.

Secondly, he makes WAY too many assumptions, especially regarding DZ.

Thirdly, I do agree with him on one point. Creatine needs to be more strictly monitored due to the delicacy of producing it. It should be labeled with "medicincal" qualities, and thus would have to undergo more structured processes and more stringent guidelines.

For now, stick to either german or USA creatine. Drink lots of water and do NOT abuse it.

Thorazine

**RetiredMod** · 02-19-2002, 11:14 PM

he never said that the gas being created was a possibility, he pretty much said it was a fact. Although that chemist did not think it posed a health threat, I dont know about you but I don't like toxic nerve gas used in warfare in my stomach

**Thorazine** · 02-19-2002, 11:42 PM

He NEVER said it was a fact.

He said it was a POSSIBILITY, yet science, studies, and EVIDENCE did NOT support his theory (as of yet)

You have very selective reading.

Thorazine

**joehagyHH** · 02-21-2002, 10:13 AM

im bumbing this up to the top cause i think its importatnt people read it

**RDX** · 02-21-2002, 10:45 AM

After reading the latter part of that article I really don�t see where the actual science is. The author makes assumptions that really have no scientific grounds. He [the author] persuades the reader to thinking any DT byproduct is harmful while admitting no evidence.
He says that DC is not very toxic and is in small quantities and that it breaks down into CN and could be toxic with a low pH acid, well ok I guess it could but at "less than 20-50 PPM"... I doubt it. And how he says that it is used in "fertilizers, explosives, fire proofing compounds, cleaning compounds, soldering compounds, stabilizer in detergents, modifier for starch products..." to scare the reader...
Now I am not saying that people should assume everything is safe but I would rather see a study that has more scientific backing.

**RetiredMod** · 02-21-2002, 02:49 PM

Sorry I was away last 2 days so I failed to respond. My point was never to prove that creatine causes cancer, it was merely to disprove those who say its free of longterm side effects and we know that. I think I've added a shadow of doubt to people's idea of the safeness of creatine, yes there is not complete proof behind it much of it is assumptions, but it hasn't been disproven therefore creatine can not be said to be known to have no long term side effects. Peace

**mdx3k** · 02-21-2002, 03:29 PM

Lets look at the positive:

"A new study in mice suggests that dietary supplementation with creatine may be helpful for patients with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), or Lou Gehrig's disease"
links: http://www.ast-ss.com/research/breaking/b-r_3-8-99.asp

I know that all they do at Ast is to try to sell their products..but they have some good info!

and, i remember reading an article about stuides done that creatine may also reduce cancer brest in women..

peace

**joehagyHH** · 02-21-2002, 04:41 PM

yes that study is inlcuded in my creatine article at www.teenbodybuilding.com/hagy

**RDX** · 02-21-2002, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by joehagyHH
yes that study is inlcuded in my creatine article at www.teenbodybuilding.com/hagy

hmm... without the ".htm" it takes people to the bb.com main page. go here -> http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/hagy.htm

**McMahon** · 02-21-2002, 04:58 PM

Cyanide is not cancerous. When it comes in contact with cancer cells, it eliminates them. It is a poison. Vitamin B-17 is suspected of being capable to completely prevent cancer. It is a molecule of which one part is cyanide. Many governments became skeptical of the cyanide in b-17, so they made the substance very hard to find, but not illegal as far as I know. They removed apricot seeds from stores which are the main source. b-17 has a part of it that is cyanide. cyanide is harmful to people, but it is only released from b-17 when it comes in contact with chemicals which are only found in tumerous areas.

**joehagyHH** · 02-21-2002, 07:05 PM

mcmahon.... i dont doubt you on that.... can you direct me to a site that can prove that....... like i said.... i dont doubt you..... i just want to read up on it for myself.

**aztman** · 02-21-2002, 07:59 PM

The study that started all this worry about creatine and cancer is absolutely ridculous. The french study came under HUGE attack by the scientfic community for being performed so horribly and being ananlyzed even worse. I have even read rumors that the scientists will be on some sort of suspension from publication. This is simply a case of the media grabbing hold of a story before it has been explained. There is no evidence that creatine has any serious side effects and it has been used for almot 30 years now!!

**joehagyHH** · 02-21-2002, 08:01 PM

yes.. definatly.... that study had many flaws in it... and was basically ripped to shredds

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