Aware me.. Supps and recovery...

[UncleWade]

Heyyyy... straight from someone tied to SNS?
GOTTA be the truth.

What's posted is a peer reviewed clinical study conducted by a neutral third party. It is the result of research conducted for science's sake [and, indirectly, for your, the consumer's, sake]. We have absolutely no way to manipulate the data. Serious Nutrition Solutions seeks out research as this so that we can provide the most efficacious and innovative dietary supplements to our customers because it's our goal to you take your training to the next level and revolutionize sports nutrition one product at a time.

While SNS does make CM - and the most cost effective CM product on the market now, at that - so do countless other companies; each and every one of these products is supported by the same research and clinical data. We have studies validating its benefits for both endurance and weight trained athletes at doses between 6-8g, which is something that well-educated consumers should already know.

Citrulline malate does not work to merely numb the pain like an analgesic or NSAID like ibuprofen would. Citrulline malate is a potent vasodilator [which means that it enhances blood flow to the muscle tissue], thereby allowing nutrients better access and absorption into the tissue. While the MOA of improved recovery time and decreased DOMS is not well-studied at present, it is my hypothesis that this plays a significant role in actually helping the muscle recover and rebuilding the muscle tissue.

CM provides a host of benefits besides recovery including pumps and endurance - let me further emphasis it's not simply alleviating the soreness by numbing it, it's attacking the root cause of the issue. This is a far departure from taking 400mg of ibuprofen or naproxen sodium because it numbs or relives the pain and you then proceed to work out in that state.

[BearLovesLuna]

Would lack of soreness be a good thing? Of course. Is lack of soreness going to mean you're able to get back and rework those muscles sooner? No. So what benefits are you gaining from all the "muscle recovery" claims?

Actually, you COULD get back to it sooner, if you're the kind that thinks pain is an indicator of "recovery" (or "lack" of pain"). I am in that camp. For me, I gauge my weekly routines ON the pain. Sometimes I add a day, before I get back to the start of the cycle, BECAUSE I worked a group extra hard, and it is not where it should be yet.

So I really think it comes down to what kind of "recovery" is being claimed.

I the case of intra workout, obviously those claims would be based on concoctions of stimulants, creatine, beta alanine, etc... That is one kind of recovery, and one that can be substantially supported.

In the case of post workout, I cannot (and again I have to state I am pretty amateur here, but I do read a TON) imagine anything- anything- increasing the natural recovery rate better than natural, "free" things- adequate nutrients, proper rest/sleep, perhaps something that can increase circulation such as massage, heat, DMSO, etc... I mean, the muscle can only repair itself at the rate it can repair itself... And as long as all the necessary natural elements are there, I cannot see how anything else can make that happen faster.

"Tricking" the ATP cycle into replenishing by supplying creatine at a higher rate than is provided by a natural diet is one thing- ramming stimulants into the body pre workout is another that makes sense and seems to work- but trying to "make" cells rebuild faster sounds a lot less likely to me. If the body has what it needs at the levels it needs (nutrients, rest/sleep, circulatory stimulation), then there is a max that I would argue, just cant be accelerated. At least not by the 'snake oil' that I have seen so far.



It would seem to me that all you can do is provide all the necessary elements, and then wait. At least in the "natural" world.

[UncleWade]

It would seem to me that all you can do is provide all the necessary elements, and then wait. At least in the "natural" world.

As you might see in my post above, the hypothesis about CM affecting recovery and reduced DOMS is that the enhanced blood flow potentiated by its vasodilation benefits allow those necessary nutritional elements to be better or more expeditiously absorbed by the muscle tissue.

[Djjordie]

So I was talking to a co-worker who has been lifting for years, telling him my routine, he told me I needed to work some more rest days in there.. That I'm not allowing for enough recovery time..


I mentioned all the supps I take, from my Pre, to my various pump products, to my BCAA's, creatine, and my test booster all claiming to increase recovery time. He hinted there is only one type of product that can boost recovery time, one that we don't mention here..

Anyways, it got me thinking. Do you buy any of these products for increased recovery time? So you can get a few extra lifting days in there every month?

Or is it more the amount of lifting you do per workout, not necessarily extra workouts that you see the "increased recovery" claims on all these products labels?

Roids do work but they can **** you up and aren't worth it, hard work is the best. Now for supplements IMO they only help a tiny bit. Results of supplements vary from person to person and can be greatly influenced on the individuals mood, room temperature and energy such as carbs from earlier in the day.
- Creatine saturates your muscles with water to fuel ATP process which 'blasts' the Phosphate when muscles contract most effective in lower rep ranges allowing you to lift heavier weights for same reps you would normally do or 8 reps on the same weight might go to 10 reps.
- Beta-Alanine basically helps with endurance so you can do higher rep ranges without tiring as much. When ATP process breaks down, concentrations of Hydrogen Ions + increase, which drops the PH level and = lactic acid which tires you out. Beta-alanine will increase carnosine concentrations and type 2 muscle fibers can absorb those H+ (more and faster) to keep Ph in a better range therefore allowing maximal strength and endurance.
- Pre-workout depending whats in it can help with focus and help get you in the mood. Some ingredients can increase blood oxygen levels further reducing fatigue.

Most of these products help lifting more for longer during individual training sessions but help with recovery for next ones. If you want to do extra sessions IMO i'd go with creatine and BCAAS!

- BCAAS Branch-Chain-Amino-Acids help hugely with recovering and reducing DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness) that **** you feel the day after a workout. When i supp with them pain is next to none and i can workout again. I recommend Aminocore or Xtend. They also help replace meals if you are trying to cut (BCAAS are basically in meat too, so you get muscle building, fat burning supp to replace some meals = less calories at the end of the day).

Glutamine is basically useless as most people aren't deficient with it (like 1/1000 for instance --- random number but u get the idea). Its really only gonna help if you have hardly any meat a day and workout >2hrs a day or something like that.

IMO supps will help like 10% of the process. Creatine being the best for heavier and long weight lifting. Bcaas for recovery. You can supp with others too if you want. But maximal performance tops out at some point so sticking with the most effective is a good cost effective idea. Changing workout routine constantly to force muscles to adapt to new situations instead of stop growing on certain exercises is a great idea. e.g. do you workout exercises in reverse. Go drop sets, go to failure, get a spotter to make you do negative reps after failure etc. All help. Eat well, train hard you will see results

Oh for different forms of creatine, from what i know more expensive forms boast better absorption which may be true (hence a lower dosage) but its more cost effective and results generally will be the same with micronised creatine going 5g a day opposed to 1.5g of creatine HCL. It all ends up in the same place. You will gain intra-muscualar water weight on creatine and abs may disappear they are there, its not fat but mainly water so dw. Take 5g whenever each day. Drink 1 gallon/4L of water a day.

[cr357]

No one has mentioned that your caloric intake and the macro breakdown (protein in particular) is what determines how well you recover. You can take all the CM you want but that doesn't compensate for improper energy balance. Overtraining a muscle is next to impossible if you eat enough, muscles are extremely adaptable. The CNS is what can become overtrained.

[Nom Z]

No one has mentioned that your caloric intake and the macro breakdown (protein in particular) is what determines how well you recover. You can take all the CM you want but that doesn't compensate for improper energy balance. Overtraining a muscle is next to impossible if you eat enough, muscles are extremely adaptable. The CNS is what can become overtrained.

Don't recall anyone recommending a supplement over proper diet, nutrition, and rest.

[Djjordie]

No one has mentioned that your caloric intake and the macro breakdown (protein in particular) is what determines how well you recover. You can take all the CM you want but that doesn't compensate for improper energy balance. Overtraining a muscle is next to impossible if you eat enough, muscles are extremely adaptable. The CNS is what can become overtrained.

THIS! ^

Forgot to mention sleep aids have been awesome for me on 6hrs sleep a night, screw ZMA overpriced not worth it, just bulk buy some magnesium powder .5g a night. If u cbf and get zma but primaforce, all zma have same ingredient levels (some have extras tho like 5-htp) but who cares about that.. IMO only **** worth taking on top of a well balanced meal and hard training sessions are; creatine, bcaas, protein powder only on days i can't bring food to the gym and magnesium for sleep. Music, spotter and my perseverance to improve is a pre workout XD

[cr357]

Don't recall anyone recommending a supplement over proper diet, nutrition, and rest.

No one has to recommend it but people get caught up and focus on supps more than those things you mentioned all the time.

[Hawks58]

As you might see in my post above, the hypothesis about CM affecting recovery and reduced DOMS is that the enhanced blood flow potentiated by its vasodilation benefits allow those necessary nutritional elements to be better or more expeditiously absorbed by the muscle tissue.

Is there any literature to prove that CM will decrease DOMs and increase muscle recovery? Otherwise a hypothesis could be made that vasodilation may interrupt the process actually increasing the time needed for muscle recovery. And would be just as valid as yours.

[UncleWade]

I have always used an automobile analogy when talking about the relative importance of diet, training, and dietary supplements when looking to make significant progress.

Diet is the fuel of the car - if you're putting in 87 octane instead of 93 or higher, it's clear that the output of the motor won't be as much as when fueled optimally for its performance.

Dietary supplements are the aerodynamics of the car - they are the small, minute details that might potentiate a small change worth it to the educated and talented professional that uses the vehicle properly.

Training is the driver of the car - no matter what fuel is in the car, or the output of the drivetrain, or the size of the brakes, the dynamics of the suspension, or the amount of care taken in aerodynamically optimizing the car, it won't matter if the driver doesn't taken the turns properly and work the track [the weights] the way he knows best.

What this is saying is that training and diet are much more significant to most with regards to results than dietary supplements, but well studied supplements do have their place to help maximize that final bit of performance their users seek in a safe and well understood way.

[BearLovesLuna]

As you might see in my post above, the hypothesis about CM affecting recovery and reduced DOMS is that the enhanced blood flow potentiated by its vasodilation benefits allow those necessary nutritional elements to be better or more expeditiously absorbed by the muscle tissue.

I have seen no vasodilation claims anywhere.

The study did state a claim that output increased. This is due to Citrulline, which can be made into L-Arginine, being more capable of making it through the digestive tract unharmed.

Seems as though Citrulline is really nothing more than a way to boost L-Arginine?

As to why the muscles feel less sore in 24-48 hours, I would like to understand more about that. The fact that that IS the case is not, in my estimation, proof or "recovery" times being improved (decreased).

Could it be simply that the lactic acid buildup is postponed, therefore, lessened in effect? For example- someone who cycles ATP quickly due to supplements might be hitting failure and working THROUG it, ONE REP. Someone who is NOT assisting ATP regeneration via supps is working through failure "longer"?

Just one of many theories, but I still am not convinced... although, I would not mind BEING convinced!

[UncleWade]

Is there any literature to prove that CM will decrease DOMs and increase muscle recovery? Otherwise a hypothesis could be made that vasodilation may interrupt the process actually increasing the time needed for muscle recovery. And would be just as valid as yours.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20386132

A significant decrease of 40% in muscle soreness at 24 hours and 48 hours after the pectoral training session and a higher percentage response than 90% was achieved with CM supplementation.

This is the study most cite when lauding the performance benefits of citrulline malate with regards to vasodilation, endurance, and recovery. I have used it and enjoyed it for quite some time and is one of the few supplements that I legitimately enjoy and would purchase out of pocket [alongside magnesium creatine chelate and acetyl l-carnitine.

[UncleWade]

I have seen no vasodilation claims anywhere.

As to why the muscles feel less sore in 24-48 hours, I would like to understand more about that. The fact that that IS the case is not, in my estimation, proof or "recovery" times being improved (decreased).

Just one of many theories, but I still am not convinced... although, I would not mind BEING convinced!

I think the fact of the matter is that many of us would like to see further, in-depth research regarding many supplements.

I think the combination of positive clinical data and numerous anecdotal reports for citrulline malate is very promising at present and will continue to use it.

While I would like to have an in-depth and thought provoking discussion, at the present time I've got some big projects bearing down on me and that requires my attention elsewhere. Anyone interested in logging a tub of citrulline malate or reviewing samples [we do not have a corporate-backed program, but I can send a limited number from my personal stash] can contact me via private message or at the e-mail listed below. I firmly believe in the benefits of CM as a user, not as a company represent, and enjoy the many ergogenic benefits it provides when dosed properly and SNS will put its money where its mouth is to that end.

[Djjordie]

I think the fact of the matter is that many of us would like to see further, in-depth research regarding many supplements.

I think the combination of positive clinical data and numerous anecdotal reports for citrulline malate is very promising at present and will continue to use it.

Agreed

[Hawks58]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20386132



This is the study most cite when lauding the performance benefits of citrulline malate with regards to vasodilation, endurance, and recovery. I have used it and enjoyed it for quite some time and is one of the few supplements that I legitimately enjoy and would purchase out of pocket [alongside magnesium creatine chelate and acetyl l-carnitine.

I get that study says that it reduces DOMs, it does NOT state it increases the rate of muscle recovery (which I guess we still haven't actually established what is considered "muscle recovered" either). Actually most studies I have seen that reduce DOMs specifically state the effect said method had on muscle recovery. For example there is a study done on massage that states a 30% reduction in DOMs was seen, but it did not improve the recovery of muscle function.

Without being rude, it doesn't matter if you would buy it out of pocket. If there is no literature, there is no literature. There are many supplements I have supported that I change my mind on as new literature and studies are produced.

[nebraskaheat]

Anyone interested in logging a tub of citrulline malate or reviewing samples [we do not have a corporate-backed program, but I can send a limited number from my personal stash] can contact me via private message or at the e-mail listed below. I firmly believe in the benefits of CM as a user, not as a company represent, and enjoy the many ergogenic benefits it provides when dosed properly and SNS will put its money where its mouth is to that end.

I would be interested in seeing a log by bearlovesluna on citrulline malate. Be interesting to see what he sees from his perspective.

[BearLovesLuna]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20386132



This is the study most cite when lauding the performance benefits of citrulline malate with regards to vasodilation, endurance, and recovery. I have used it and enjoyed it for quite some time and is one of the few supplements that I legitimately enjoy and would purchase out of pocket [alongside magnesium creatine chelate and acetyl l-carnitine.

As I said in my response, I could see where vasodilation or other methods of increased circulation could assist in this claim, but I did not see ANY claim as to the increase in circulation... can you point it out? It must be in the larger body of the study? (I think the link you provide is a synopsis)?

[BearLovesLuna]

Anyone interested in logging a tub of citrulline malate or reviewing samples [we do not have a corporate-backed program, but I can send a limited number from my personal stash] can contact me via private message or at the e-mail listed below. I firmly believe in the benefits of CM as a user, not as a company represent, and enjoy the many ergogenic benefits it provides when dosed properly and SNS will put its money where its mouth is to that end.

I'll bite. And contrary to my tone, I am open minded. I'm 47, and do everything I can (within natural reason) to make my body react like it is in its 20's. I would love to have another tool for that arsenal.

Currently, I run a 4-5 day split with 2-3 days run or rest. I feel my muscles need 3 days, sometimes 4, to be ready for another go. Let's see if we can cut that down. (Again I am not convinced that lack of pain is a sign that full recovery has been accomplished).

And, can you tell me which ingredient in this is responsible for this claim on vasodilation, or recovery?

Additionally - can you see any reason why that product cannot be taken with C-4? Would the arginine levels get too high? I currently take two scoops of C-4 pre w/o. I also take creatine (3-5g daily- don't see a problem there) and I dose leucine at 10-15grams extra a day. I don't see any real issues there excepting maybe the arginine in the C-4 combining with the arginine created by the citrulline.

Not asking you to give me "doctors" clearance, just your common sense thoughts- drop the c-4 while trying this?

That all being said, maybe tell me what you can about all of that, and I will sign up and see what I can "see" from this product.

To be honest, recovery time (between splits, not sets) right now is kind of a lagging factor for me.

[UncleWade]

I'll bite. And contrary to my tone, I am open minded. I'm 47, and do everything I can (within natural reason) to make my body react like it is in its 20's. I would love to have another tool for that arsenal.

We're all in search for answers, it's mostly highly subjective interpretation with regards to studies until it's looked into further.

I can't blame research labs for a lackadaisical pace on cit mal or dietary supplement research, I'd much rather them spend their time, resources, and energy trying to cure cancer and other much bigger feats.

And, can you tell me which ingredient in this is responsible for this claim on vasodilation, or recovery?

Citrulline malate is a mixture of citrulline and malic acid. While some of the benefits are believed to be potentiated by a synergy of the two ingredients, citrulline is what's typically indicated as what improves vasodilation.

Additionally - can you see any reason why that product cannot be taken with C-4? Would the arginine levels get too high? I currently take two scoops of C-4 pre w/o. I also take creatine (3-5g daily- don't see a problem there) and I dose leucine at 10-15grams extra a day. I don't see any real issues there excepting maybe the arginine in the C-4 combining with the arginine created by the citrulline.

Not asking you to give me "doctors" clearance, just your common sense thoughts- drop the c-4 while trying this?

The original Cellucor C4 is still a staple in my preworkout stack - I absolutely love the creatine nitrate it contains, along with the original focus/energy blend. I stack bulk citrulline malate with it [between 6-10g] quite frequently and have had no issues.

This will obviously be highly subjective, but from a common sense perspective there should be no issue stacking the two.

I've got to make some headway on these projects, I will respond to your PM(s) at some point in the day tomorrow ASAP.

In the mean time, please let me know if there are any questions, comments, or concerns I might help with via PM or at the e-mail listed below. Thanks!

[gynogon]

Reorganize your routine if you feel like you're overtraining. Depending on your exercise selection and how long your sessions last, you could train every day without overdoing it. I wish there were a supplement that could magically repair muscle damage after exercise, but it does not exist. It's mostly about proper diet and sleep.

I see why you are in the red zone...

i see why u r 157 pounds cuz youre skinny fat all over mr marathon runner... i also see why yre lonely cuz u aint tappin no one not even the whale at the beachwith a full beard wants ya

worse advice ever everyone knows theres supplments for recovery like glutamine, creatine whey and beta alanine which are proven to reduce recovery time significantly what a dikhead thing 2 say thats why u have a wiezel body.

[BigBoLuke93]

i see why u r 157 pounds cuz youre skinny fat all over mr marathon runner... i also see why yre lonely cuz u aint tappin no one not even the whale at the beachwith a full beard wants ya

worse advice ever everyone knows theres supplments for recovery like glutamine, creatine whey and beta alanine which are proven to reduce recovery time significantly what a dikhead thing 2 say thats why u have a wiezel body.

You are clueless. Do some research before you continue to spout nonsense.

Glutamine - does nothing for recovery, and is practically worthless to supplement with.

Creatine - Helps with the production of ATP for muscle energy during workouts. Does not 'reduce recovery time'.

Beta-Alanine - Also helps with the production of ATP and helps with endurance. Does not aid muscle recovery.

Whey - This is protein, muscle requires protein to recover, repair, and build. This does aid with muscle recovery.


Congrats, 1 out of 4. Please do some research before you try and call people out..

[gynogon]

You are clueless. Do some research before you continue to spout nonsense.

Glutamine - does nothing for recovery, and is practically worthless to supplement with.

Creatine - Helps with the production of ATP for muscle energy during workouts. Does not 'reduce recovery time'.

Beta-Alanine - Also helps with the production of ATP and helps with endurance. Does not aid muscle recovery.

Whey - This is protein, muscle requires protein to recover, repair, and build. This does aid with muscle recovery.


Congrats, 1 out of 4. Please do some research before you try and call people out..

sorry but youre completely wrong on everything, any one who truly does body building will atest it is incredibly effective. Heres the scifit gluta lyn (buffered glutamine) which is more superior then regular glutamine. Its is the highest rated supplement in the world 4 fuk sake on supplement reviews.com the most truested reviewer out and yet youre gona blabble nonsense that it dont work? LMFAO!!

http://supplementreviews.com/top-rated.php

and the sci fit kre alkalyn creatine is the best rated ine the world for creatine its number 5th best of all suplements moron case closed.

[neddo]

You are clueless. Do some research before you continue to spout nonsense.

Glutamine - does nothing for recovery, and is practically worthless to supplement with.

Creatine - Helps with the production of ATP for muscle energy during workouts. Does not 'reduce recovery time'.

Beta-Alanine - Also helps with the production of ATP and helps with endurance. Does not aid muscle recovery.

Whey - This is protein, muscle requires protein to recover, repair, and build. This does aid with muscle recovery.


Congrats, 1 out of 4. Please do some research before you try and call people out..

case closed moron

[gynogon]

case closed moron

youre avatar...case closed moron....lift weights bich back

http://supplementreviews.com/top-rated.php


??????????? ??????? ?????

[neddo]

Strong Napoleon Complex brahbrah, umad

[gynogon]

Strong Napoleon Complex brahbrah, umad

dude glutamine even rates higher then all of the frigin prohormones 4 fuk sake r u kidding me youve got nothing on this you loose hands down. Even halodrol is only rated at 8/10 compared to glutamine at 9.6/10 LMFAOOOO !!its higher then a steroid compounds and u think u even have an argument here = owned.

http://supplementreviews.com/top-rated.php

[nebraskaheat]

dude glutamine even rates higher then all of the frigin prohormones 4 fuk sake r u kidding me youve got nothing on this you loose hands down. Even halodrol is only rated at 8/10 compared to glutamine at 9.6/10 LMFAOOOO !!its higher then a steroid compound and u think u even have an have an argument here = owned.

http://supplementreviews.com/top-rated.php

Go somewhere else moron.

[StelioK]

Proper eating with all my macros and micros+ melatonin to sleep 10 hours minimum like a baby= Training 6 days per week and having trouble keeping myself resting on my rest day. No juice.

[gynogon]

Go somewhere else moron.

i just awnsered yoiure question about he best supplement 4 recovery and proven 2 u which is the best supplement and saved u alot of time wasting youre money on other **** that doesnt work and u tell me 2 go away well u can go **** yourself ya ungreateful little bastard . I hope no one gives u any advice at all cuz u clearly dont listen to it anyway.

plus what do u need recovery 4 anyway u need 2 be lifting weights to recover from... from youre avi who told u marathon running wasnt catabolic......? lol stop waisting everyones time on here who tries 2 point u in the right direction and ****in actually lift weights b4 u decide to take supplemnts build some natural muscle up 1st and get a base ya scrawny bich

[nebraskaheat]

i just awnsered yoiure question about he best supplement 4 recovery and proven 2 u which is the best supplement and saved u alot of time wasting youre money on other **** that doesnt work and u tell me 2 go away well u can go **** yourself ya ungreateful little bastard . I hope no one gives u any advice at all cuz u clearly dont listen to it anyway.

plus what do u need recovery 4 anyway u need 2 be lifting weights to recover from... from youre avi who told u marathon running wasnt catabolic......? lol stop waisting everyones time on here who tries 2 point u in the right direction and ****in actually lift weights b4 u decide to take supplemnts build some natural muscle up 1st and get a base ya scrawny bich

1st, you're barely literate.

2nd...




Go somewhere else moron.