Whenever a weightlifter demonstrates great strength, he is an exception

[ledinred2]

You seem to think that heavy pulls CAN be appropriate (Over 100%) which I completely disagree with. Ask Glenn Pendlay if heavy deadlifting helped Donny Shankle

WHY do you disagree with this assertion? What is your reasoning for your belief that doing heavy pulls are unnecessary or detrimental to a lifter's progress? Pointing out a bunch of anectodal examples of lifters who never do pulls over 100% does not support your conclusion. You can do that on both sides all day. I don't care about whether or not pulling helped Donny Shankle. Getting his squat up to 300+kg didn't help Donny Shankle either, does that mean that no one should be squatting over 300kg? Why shouldn't I do pulls over 100% (given that you know nothing about my training history, anthropometry, etc.)? You are making a blanket statement that you've provided nothing to back up.

[EasternHammer]

There's a lot going on in this thread, so I'll just make one observation. It would seem that as one becomes more accomplished in weightlifting, training should shift to place more emphasis on the competition lifts and progressively less on pulls, squats, and all other assistance exercises. I find it surprising that the Russian and Chinese elites are still convinced of the benefit of doing very heavy pulls, for instance, when their competition has abandoned those exercises and still achieve comparable results. Though it works for them, undeniably, it also seems like a lot of wasted time/effort. Again, what's the purpose of doing exercises that don't appear to give any advantage over competition who doesn't do them at all?

[GoJu]

There's a lot going on in this thread, so I'll just make one observation. It would seem that as one becomes more accomplished in weightlifting, training should shift to place more emphasis on the competition lifts and progressively less on pulls, squats, and all other assistance exercises. I find it surprising that the Russian and Chinese elites are still convinced of the benefit of doing very heavy pulls, for instance, when their competition has abandoned those exercises and still achieve comparable results. Though it works for them, undeniably, it also seems like a lot of wasted time/effort. Again, what's the purpose of doing exercises that don't appear to give any advantage over competition who doesn't do them at all?

The lifts don't correct technical flaws caused by a lack of strength, so pulls and heavy strength work are NOT a waste of time. The lifts are a waste of time if you lack the strength to stand up with a weight, the strength to keep your back tight, and the strength the hold the bar over your head.

[CHS55]

Most of the Chinese do heavy pulling and deadlifting, if they don't it's because they don't need to do it and are focusing on something else.

I actually don't do heavy pulling right now, because FOR ME it didn't help, I KNOW it will help for other people though.

There isn't, you're the one over complicating the subject.

Why is chen wuben wrong and the coach who drilled this mindset into your head right?

That's the thing; if I had to guess, you're basing your training philosophies off of what you see in YouTube videos, in what one man states; I'm not quick to assume that one training methodology is superior towards the other, and like the evidence to be derived from actual research and experiments. And yes that can include coaches who have studied extensively to develop their philosophy, but at the same time it's worthwhile to delve into finding why the coaches believe what they do. If you said that you had personal success with a certain way of training, who's to tell you different? I base this off of talking to multiple coaches (many of which have produced Olympians) to see what their thoughts are; of course I'm always quick to ask why they think that way.

How long have you been in this sport? Do you regularly go to Senior Nationals? Just curious

[GoJu]

That's the thing; if I had to guess, you're basing your training philosophies off of what you see in YouTube videos, in what one man states; I'm not quick to assume that one training methodology is superior towards the other, and like the evidence to be derived from actual research and experiments. And yes that can include coaches who have studied extensively to develop their philosophy, but at the same time it's worthwhile to delve into finding why the coaches believe what they do. If you said that you had personal success with a certain way of training, who's to tell you different? I base this off of talking to multiple coaches (many of which have produced Olympians) to see what their thoughts are; of course I'm always quick to ask why they think that way.

How long have you been in this sport? Do you regularly go to Senior Nationals? Just curious

Youtube videos, reading and researching the commentary of people who have actually trained with and have been coached by professional lifters from the countries I am referencing.

You ARE saying one training methodology is better than another, you've been implying it the entire thread.

I am no great lifter, nor do I have any desire to compete anymore, not that that matters to the discussion.

I'll ask again, why is Chen Wuben (who has produced olympic gold medalists) wrong and your coaches are right?

[CHS55]

Youtube videos, reading and researching the commentary of people who have actually trained with and have been coached by professional lifters from the countries I am referencing.

You ARE saying one training methodology is better than another, you've been implying it the entire thread.

I am no great lifter, nor do I have any desire to compete anymore, not that that matters to the discussion.

I'll ask again, why is Chen Wuben (who has produced olympic gold medalists) wrong and your coaches are right?

Straw man.

Professional lifters don't equal professional coaches. I'm not advocating an entire training methodology, but stating that it's incorrect to incorporate HEAVY pulling. Not the whole system itself, but saying that it's incorrect to have a lifter doing pulls with weights that exceed their clean and jerk.

And really, I feel that being a lifter and applying a training philosophy can help give one half-decent insight on what COULD work and what COULDN'T, which is why I asked. Senior Nationals is an opportunity to converse the coaches who have been there, who sometimes had to have lifters do certain exercises and HOPE that they worked.

I've found more coaches/individuals that are proponents of pulling in moderate weights, and the explanation is more sound than "Heavy pulls works the back in a way that light pulls don't". There's really no need to continue this discussion, in your mind you're right and in my mind I'm right. Only way to find out is to become coaches and see what lifters we produce!

[GoJu]

Straw man.

Professional lifters don't equal professional coaches. I'm not advocating an entire training methodology, but stating that it's incorrect to incorporate HEAVY pulling. Not the whole system itself, but saying that it's incorrect to have a lifter doing pulls with weights that exceed their clean and jerk.

And really, I feel that being a lifter and applying a training philosophy can help give one half-decent insight on what COULD work and what COULDN'T, which is why I asked. Senior Nationals is an opportunity to converse the coaches who have been there, who sometimes had to have lifters do certain exercises and HOPE that they worked.

I've found more coaches/individuals that are proponents of pulling in moderate weights, and the explanation is more sound than "Heavy pulls works the back in a way that light pulls don't". There's really no need to continue this discussion, in your mind you're right and in my mind I'm right. Only way to find out is to become coaches and see what lifters we produce!

My opinion is sided with the Chinese Coaches who have produced medalists across different weight classes for years.

I know what you're stating and what you're stating is not correct across the board for every lifter.

It is correct to have a lifter doing pulls in excess of their clean and jerks for lifters who need it.

[CHS55]

My opinion is sided with the Chinese Coaches who have produced medalists across different weight classes for years.

I know what you're stating and what you're stating is not correct across the board for every lifter.

It is correct to have a lifter doing pulls in excess of their clean and jerks for lifters who need it.

You mean your opinion is sided with what people have claimed the Chinese coaches have said right? As I said, no need to continue this discussion for reasons previously mentioned.

[CHS55]

WHY do you disagree with this assertion? What is your reasoning for your belief that doing heavy pulls are unnecessary or detrimental to a lifter's progress? Pointing out a bunch of anectodal examples of lifters who never do pulls over 100% does not support your conclusion. You can do that on both sides all day. I don't care about whether or not pulling helped Donny Shankle. Getting his squat up to 300+kg didn't help Donny Shankle either, does that mean that no one should be squatting over 300kg? Why shouldn't I do pulls over 100% (given that you know nothing about my training history, anthropometry, etc.)? You are making a blanket statement that you've provided nothing to back up.

My reasoning is based off of Soviet studies which mention the compromise of force production as percentages go up, conversation with several coaches that are held in high regard, different weightlifting literature, as well as personal experience. PM me if you'd like to know the sources

[DaTruth1]

^ old russian research established the 10% rule - if you are training for speed/power, using more than 10% of the competition load will be less beneficial than staying close to the competition weight.

[EasternHammer]

The lifts don't correct technical flaws caused by a lack of strength, so pulls and heavy strength work are NOT a waste of time. The lifts are a waste of time if you lack the strength to stand up with a weight, the strength to keep your back tight, and the strength the hold the bar over your head.

Don't you think technical flaws are better solved by increasing the number of lifts in the +85% range in the comp lifts than lifting big #'s in other exercises? I do, at least. In fact, I would argue that the number of circa maximal attempts in training is possibly the single most important factor in predicting success at competitions. I would bet on that guy every time.

Regarding Coach Chen, I think he has several advantages at the moment that assist the Chinese team. And even with those advantages, the Chinese are still beatable. And truth be told,programming and exercise selection are not why the Chinese have been successful.

[GoJu]

You mean your opinion is sided with what people have claimed the Chinese coaches have said right? As I said, no need to continue this discussion for reasons previously mentioned.

No their coaches were trained by Chinese coaches and were former Chinese national lifters themselves.

I still have yet to see an argument as to why Chen Wuben is wrong and Pendlay and other American coaches are right.

[GoJu]

Don't you think technical flaws are better solved by increasing the number of lifts in the +85% range in the comp lifts than lifting big #'s in other exercises? I do, at least. In fact, I would argue that the number of circa maximal attempts in training is possibly the single most important factor in predicting success at competitions. I would bet on that guy every time.

Regarding Coach Chen, I think he has several advantages at the moment that assist the Chinese team. And even with those advantages, the Chinese are still beatable. And truth be told,programming and exercise selection are not why the Chinese have been successful.

No, because reinforcing a bad habit just makes it worse.

Please don't tell me you just implied the only reason pulls and their training style are beneficial to the Chinese is because they're on steroids. Please don't. Lie to me if you have to.

[EasternHammer]

No, because reinforcing a bad habit just makes it worse.

Please don't tell me you just implied the only reason pulls and their training style are beneficial to the Chinese is because they're on steroids. Please don't. Lie to me if you have to.

Don't be ignorant. Everyone at a world class level is on steroids, that has nothing to do with it. The advantages I mentioned are as follows:

1) Number of lifters. The big very obvious one. China alone has more lifters than the rest of the world combined. Between Russia and China together they must control something like 90% of the world's talent. Given their vast numbers and the resources poured into weightlifting in those two countries, it's a wonder they ever lose at all. Yet they've got their hands full trying to deal with Bulgaria, Turkey, North Korea, etc. What gives? How can such small countries challenge the Russians and Chinese?

2) High priority of weightlifting as a sport. The Chinese go to every corner of their huge country and hand-pick children who are offered the chance to get out of the rice paddy. Where else does the national weightlifting team have that luxury?

3) Current weakness of the competition. When Boevski, Mutlu, Sagir, Peshalov et al. were defeating their Chinese rivals around the turn of the century, who thought the Chinese training style was anything remarkable? Since that time, for whatever reasons, China's main competitors have fallen into disarray. But what happens if the Bulgarians, Turks, Greeks, whoever get their act together and start beating the Chinese once again? Will you still champion the Chinese system when they begin losing to countries with 1/100 of the available talent?

Interested to see what you think.

[GoJu]

Don't be ignorant. Everyone at a world class level is on steroids, that has nothing to do with it. The advantages I mentioned are as follows:

1) Number of lifters. The big very obvious one. China alone has more lifters than the rest of the world combined. Between Russia and China together they must control something like 90% of the world's talent. Given their vast numbers and the resources poured into weightlifting in those two countries, it's a wonder they ever lose at all. Yet they've got their hands full trying to deal with Bulgaria, Turkey, North Korea, etc. What gives? How can such small countries challenge the Russians and Chinese?

2) High priority of weightlifting as a sport. The Chinese go to every corner of their huge country and hand-pick children who are offered the chance to get out of the rice paddy. Where else does the national weightlifting team have that luxury?

3) Current weakness of the competition. When Boevski, Mutlu, Sagir, Peshalov et al. were defeating their Chinese rivals around the turn of the century, who thought the Chinese training style was anything remarkable? Since that time, for whatever reasons, China's main competitors have fallen into disarray. But what happens if the Bulgarians, Turks, Greeks, whoever get their act together and start beating the Chinese once again? Will you still champion the Chinese system when they begin losing to countries with 1/100 of the available talent?

Interested to see what you think.

Bulgaria has sucked for a few years now, same with Turkey except perhaps with Bene in the 69's, North Koreans I can agree with (which both North and South Korea and alot of the other Oriental countries train in a similar manner to the Chinese, lots of strength lifts).

The chinese might have weak competition in some of their weight classes (clearly not all as referenced by the 56's, 77's, and 85's when they're on point) but they're still lifting world record weights.

Your entire post is an attempt to hand wave the issue away, and it's nothing I haven't seen before, it's the same straw man you made before when you asked why don't the guys with the best deadlifts always win?

The question is silly and does not address the actual issue.

[CHS55]

No their coaches were trained by Chinese coaches and were former Chinese national lifters themselves.

I still have yet to see an argument as to why Chen Wuben is wrong and Pendlay and other American coaches are right.

Have you talked to these coaches personally? Have you talked to their coaches personally? Have you looked into their justifications as to why they train the way they do?

And if you'd like to know, it's not all American coaches. Christos Iakovou and David Webster are the more notable ones that I've had the opportunity to speak with. Look them up if you don't know who they are. If you'd like to correct them then go for it.

[EasternHammer]

Bulgaria has sucked for a few years now, same with Turkey except perhaps with Bene in the 69's, North Koreans I can agree with (which both North and South Korea and alot of the other Oriental countries train in a similar manner to the Chinese, lots of strength lifts).

The chinese might have weak competition in some of their weight classes (clearly not all as referenced by the 56's, 77's, and 85's when they're on point) but they're still lifting world record weights.

Your entire post is an attempt to hand wave the issue away, and it's nothing I haven't seen before, it's the same straw man you made before when you asked why don't the guys with the best deadlifts always win?

The question is silly and does not address the actual issue.

At this point, I'm not even sure what the question is but it doesn't matter. Like I said, I think the success of China has to do with many factors other than their actual training and programming. I don't think what they do in the gym is a primary or even secondary reason for producing medalists. And the fact that they lose (sometimes) to countries with literally 1% of their talent pool supports that notion.


Also, the world is still waiting for the Chinese to make some noise in the heavyweights. Their system is apparently not getting it done if the world's most populous country is MIA in 1/3 of the weight classes.

[GoJu]

Have you talked to these coaches personally? Have you talked to their coaches personally? Have you looked into their justifications as to why they train the way they do?

And if you'd like to know, it's not all American coaches. Christos Iakovou and David Webster are the more notable ones that I've had the opportunity to speak with. Look them up if you don't know who they are. If you'd like to correct them then go for it.

I know their justification, it's no where near as complicated as you're trying to make it out to be.

David Rigert or Chen Wuben could be standing in front of you telling you why they have their lifters pull heavy and I don't think you'd listen to them.

[GoJu]

At this point, I'm not even sure what the question is but it doesn't matter. Like I said, I think the success of China has to do with many factors other than their actual training and programming. I don't think what they do in the gym is a primary or even secondary reason for producing medalists.
.

Hand waving.

[CHS55]

I know their justification, it's no where near as complicated as you're trying to make it out to be.

David Rigert or Chen Wuben could be standing in front of you telling you why they have their lifters pull heavy and I don't think you'd listen to them.

Then become a coach, and prove me wrong =] You yourself said that you have no desire to be a great lifter, so help the US out. Produce Olympians, you're right, case closed. However, you're no David Rigert

[GoJu]

Then become a coach, and prove me wrong =] You yourself said that you have no desire to be a great lifter, so help the US out. Produce Olympians, you're right, case closed. However, you're no David Rigert

I know I'm not a David Rigert or Chen Wuben, I am basing my opinions around coaches like them; I don't need to be a Rigert or even a coach to be right in this argument.

[CHS55]

I know I'm not a David Rigert or Chen Wuben, I am basing my opinions around coaches like them; I don't need to be a Rigert or even a coach to be right in this argument.

"This guy said that Rigert said this" and "I saw this in a YouTube video" aren't strong arguments. Don't sell yourself short and try to educate yourself extensively on this sport.

[GoJu]

"This guy said that Rigert said this" and "I saw this in a YouTube video" aren't strong arguments. Don't sell yourself short and try to educate yourself extensively on this sport.

Hand waving everywhere. This is like arguing with a god damn creationist about the age of the earth. By your logic I can't know the earth is 4.5 billion years old because I wasn't there.

[GoJu]

Are they trolling us all and just showing off for the camera and doing secret Bulgarian or Soviet training behind the scenes?

[EasternHammer]

Hand waving.

Goju, what will it take for China to produce a heavyweight (+85) that is top 3 at Worlds or Olympics? You have great faith in the Chinese method and they have considerable advantages which I outlined above. So why hasn't it happened yet? And yes, I'm aware that there have been a few who possibly fit the description (Dong, Sun, Cui) but I mean consistently. Where are these guys at the top level? Much smaller countries have been able to do it, why can't China?

[scarboro]

Contrast that with this, no pulls no backsquats

[GoJu]

Goju, what will it take for China to produce a heavyweight (+85) that is top 3 at Worlds or Olympics? You have great faith in the Chinese method and they have considerable advantages which I outlined above. So why hasn't it happened yet? And yes, I'm aware that there have been a few who possibly fit the description (Dong, Sun, Cui) but I mean consistently. Where are these guys at the top level? Much smaller countries have been able to do it, why can't China?

They focus on the lower classes because that's what they're good at, it's hard to grow supers from a country predominantly comprised of genetically small people. You done trying to move the discussion somewhere else?

[GoJu]

Contrast that with this, no pulls no backsquats

Xiaojun's best in training is 180/210 and he has a gold medal...

Pulaku is a great lifter, but Xiaojun's technique is better than his; Pulaku wouldn't given the Chinese a run for the money on the clean&jerk but the snatch would've held him back and that's assuming he would've lifted close to his training lifts on the platform.

[scarboro]

Xiaojun's best in training is 180/210 and he has a gold medal...

I wasn't comparing the two lifters capabilities (although 211>210), just saying theres more than one way to train if we use examples of specific lifters. EasternHammer has a point that it's about identifying the % of high level success given a certain athlete pool and China needs to be producing alot more medals to go with the amount of money/time they spend on weightlifting.

[ledinred2]

Contrast that with this, no pulls no backsquats

Hysen has a visibly weak first pull and never came close to replicating those lifts in competition after dropping ~7kg from his training weight.