Whenever a weightlifter demonstrates great strength, he is an exception

[EasternHammer]

I don't think anyone is saying that heavy pulls don't help/work. They definitely do, especially if a lifter is weak off the floor. I think what some people are suggesting is simply that they aren't necessary

Generally, I would agree with this. It's a question of how heavy the pull is. 110% of your max snatch/clean is acceptable. But 160% seems excessive and there are probably better ways to fix any weakness you might have in your pull.

[yummy22]

I don't think anyone is saying that heavy pulls don't help/work. They definitely do, especially if a lifter is weak off the floor. I think what some people are suggesting is simply that they aren't necessary

Squats are not necessary

All you have to do is clean the weight and your golden

[dbk1]

Squats are not necessary

All you have to do is clean the weight and your golden

I don't have a side in this. I just think the arguments been misconstrued. people aren't saying that heavy pulls are bad, just that they may not be necessary.

[EasternHammer]

Squats are not necessary

All you have to do is clean the weight and your golden

Well, I don't see anything amiss with this statement either. If you aren't getting pinned by your cleans, what's the point of continually pushing up your weight on squats? Just like with pulls, there's a point where it doesn't help any. Obviously one still has to squat, but the question is, how much?

[GoJu]

Generally, I would agree with this. It's a question of how heavy the pull is. 110% of your max snatch/clean is acceptable. But 160% seems excessive and there are probably better ways to fix any weakness you might have in your pull.

For all this talk lifters with your opinion do regarding specificity, they seem to throw it out the window when it comes to pulls. Above 110% snatch/clean pulls and deadlifts can be helpful and will certainly not negatively affect your pull depending on what your weaknesses are. If your pull is a strong suit pull minimally or not at all, but if you need pulling work than do pulling work; and yes that includes pulls above 110% of your max cleans and snatch.

[EasternHammer]

For all this talk lifters with your opinion do regarding specificity, they seem to throw it out the window when it comes to pulls. Above 110% snatch/clean pulls and deadlifts can be helpful and will certainly not negatively affect your pull depending on what your weaknesses are. If your pull is a strong suit pull minimally or not at all, but if you need pulling work than do pulling work; and yes that includes pulls above 110% of your max cleans and snatch.

I think you're cherrypicking lifters who do these kind of very heavy pulls as examples for your argument though. As I mentioned before, there are world-class lifters who do not do pulls in the range seen in the OP and have achieved great success. And my point is, if it's not necessary to deadlift/squat xyz to snatch or clean xyz weight, then why spend time doing it? You would be better off doing more sessions in the competitive lifts.

[GoJu]

I think you're cherrypicking lifters who do these kind of very heavy pulls as examples for your argument though. As I mentioned before, there are world-class lifters who do not do pulls in the range seen in the OP and have achieved great success. And my point is, if it's not necessary to deadlift/squat xyz to snatch or clean xyz weight, then why spend time doing it? You would be better off doing more sessions in the competitive lifts.

And you say I'm the one cherry picking? You're not cherry picking lifters who don't pull or don't squat much as examples of your argument?

[EasternHammer]

And you say I'm the one cherry picking? You're not cherry picking lifters who don't pull or don't squat much as examples of your argument?

The debate seems to be about the minimum numbers in supplementary exercises needed to achieve certain results in the competition lifts. If it can be shown that it is not absolutely necessary to lift over 120%, let's say, in clean pull/front squat to achieve a world-class clean+jerk, that's not cherrypicking it's simply an observation supported by statistics. We know it's possible because many people have done it.

[GoJu]

The debate seems to be about the minimum numbers in supplementary exercises needed to achieve certain results in the competition lifts. If it can be shown that it is not absolutely necessary to lift over 120%, let's say, in clean pull/front squat to achieve a world-class clean+jerk, that's not cherrypicking it's simply an observation supported by statistics. We know it's possible because many people have done it.

And it has been shown that it's not necessary to be a minimalist with no pulls or assistance exercises, as supported by observing the Chinese and Russians.

[scarboro]

And it has been shown that it's not necessary to be a minimalist with no pulls or assistance exercises, as supported by observing the Chinese and Russians.

Either way, the world class weights speak for themselves and show theres more than one way to train. Realistically speaking though the athletes that don't do much supplementary 'heavy' lifting tend to be much faster and technically efficient.

What separates us armchair lifters/coaches/spectators from the pros is knowing which path to take with specific athletes as each case is vastly different.

[EasternHammer]

And it has been shown that it's not necessary to be a minimalist with no pulls or assistance exercises, as supported by observing the Chinese and Russians.

I think we finally agree on something, lol. What I was trying to say was that one should do the minimum amount of supplementary exercises necessary. Obviously what the Chinese or Russians are doing works for them, but have you ever thought that they might lift just as much with less heavy pulls? And if that's true, what's the point of doing them? That's been my theme all along.

[GoJu]

I think we finally agree on something, lol. What I was trying to say was that one should do the minimum amount of supplementary exercises necessary. Obviously what the Chinese or Russians are doing works for them, but have you ever thought that they might lift just as much with less heavy pulls? And if that's true, what's the point of doing them? That's been my theme all along.

No, I think this all too common and tired saying of 'well they're talented so they'll do well on any program' is a cop out.

It's not true that they would lift just as well without the heavy pulls, they do them for a reason.

[EasternHammer]

No, I think this all too common and tired saying of 'well they're talented so they'll do well on any program' is a cop out.

It's not true that they would lift just as well without the heavy pulls, they do them for a reason.

What reason is that? Russian and Chinese lifters have been defeated many times before by Bulgarians, Turks, Iranians, Kazakhs who all adopt a "minimalist" approach. It's not the only factor, of course, but it's something to think about. If you think the heavy pulls are necessary, and "they do them for a reason," how can they lose to competitors who don't do them?

[CHS55]

For all this talk lifters with your opinion do regarding specificity, they seem to throw it out the window when it comes to pulls. Above 110% snatch/clean pulls and deadlifts can be helpful and will certainly not negatively affect your pull depending on what your weaknesses are. If your pull is a strong suit pull minimally or not at all, but if you need pulling work than do pulling work; and yes that includes pulls above 110% of your max cleans and snatch.

Where are you basing the appropriate percentages off of? What's the reason for heavy pulls?

[GoJu]

Where are you basing the appropriate percentages off of? What's the reason for heavy pulls?

Heavy pulls help with strength off the floor in a way lighter pulls do not, if a lifter has problems keeping his back tight throughout the ranges of the pull, than heavier ones help as referenced by the chinese doing above 110% pulls often, again it depends on the lifter.

[GoJu]

What reason is that? Russian and Chinese lifters have been defeated many times before by Bulgarians, Turks, Iranians, Kazakhs who all adopt a "minimalist" approach. It's not the only factor, of course, but it's something to think about. If you think the heavy pulls are necessary, and "they do them for a reason," how can they lose to competitors who don't do them?

I don't think you know what a straw man argument is.

By your reasoing, there really was never anything special about Abadjiev's 'programming', Varbanaov, Boevski, Naim, Gardev and the like would've made the exact same progress and lifted in the exact same style had they gone with a country that included more strength lifts in their programming.

[CHS55]

Heavy pulls help with strength off the floor in a way lighter pulls do not, if a lifter has problems keeping his back tight throughout the ranges of the pull, than heavier ones help as referenced by the chinese doing above 110% pulls often, again it depends on the lifter.

What do heavy pulls do that lighter pulls don't? Doing repetitions with 80-85% of a lifter's maximum is adequate given that the lifter's one rep max was most likely performed under circumstances where the they were adequately rested, coupled with an adrenaline rush (especially if it were performed in a competition). Training the spinal erectors to maintain an isometric contraction in the pulling phase makes more sense than doing more than what you can actually put overhead, because more than likely the back will lose its lordotic position. Soviet studies also show that force production is compromised when exceeding a reasonable percentage on pulls as well.

Again, where are you basing this off of?

[feces99]

pull as heavy as u can while keeping perfect positions. thats all there is to it.

[GoJu]

What do heavy pulls do that lighter pulls don't? Doing repetitions with 80-85% of a lifter's maximum is adequate given that the lifter's one rep max was most likely performed under circumstances where the they were adequately rested, coupled with an adrenaline rush (especially if it were performed in a competition).

Painting with too broad of a brush, this isn't applicable to every lifter, just like lighter pulls will do dick all for some lifters who need heavier stimulus. There is not one Russian program and people have adapted the Soviet studies to the modern day, not Russian or European trains like its laid out in the Training of the Weightlifter, I already told you where I base this off of.

[GoJu]

This is another example,



this guys c&j is 215, this is a deadlifting of 123% above his best c&j for 6 reps no less, is he doing something wrong?
Is it just another case that can be hand waived away by the cop out that he's allowed to train 'wrong' because he's already strong?

[GoJu]

pull as heavy as u can while keeping perfect positions. thats all there is to it.

Apparently not, only pull up to 110% of your best clean, anything above that and it turns into this:



And this happens to EVERYONE, no exceptions.

[CHS55]

Painting with too broad of a brush, this isn't applicable to every lifter, just like lighter pulls will do dick all for some lifters who need heavier stimulus. There is not one Russian program and people have adapted the Soviet studies to the modern day, not Russian or European trains like its laid out in the Training of the Weightlifter, I already told you where I base this off of.

Pointing out logical fallacies of everyone is a fallacy in itself. The first time I asked where you based it off of you didn't answer, the second time you essentially answered "The Chinese do it"; I already said that those sorts of reasons aren't enough to convince me. Pulls with 80-85% isn't, and shouldn't be considered light. You seem to think that heavy pulls CAN be appropriate (Over 100%) which I completely disagree with. Ask Glenn Pendlay if heavy deadlifting helped Donny Shankle

[feces99]

Apparently not, only pull up to 110% of your best clean, anything above that and it turns into this:



And this happens to EVERYONE, no exceptions.

why are you comparing power lifting to oly lifting. especially using a powerlifter who rounds his upper back on purpose?

[GoJu]

Pointing out logical fallacies of everyone is a fallacy in itself. The first time I asked where you based it off of you didn't answer, the second time you essentially answered "The Chinese do it"; I already said that those sorts of reasons aren't enough to convince me. Pulls with 80-85% isn't, and shouldn't be considered light. You seem to think that heavy pulls CAN be appropriate (Over 100%) which I completely disagree with. Ask Glenn Pendlay if heavy deadlifting helped Donny Shankle

Pointing out logical fallacies is a fallacy now, I don't even....

You're smarter than that.

The Chinese are a clear picture of the exception to the 'rule' of never pull over 100% so they're a good example.

Now you're giving me an example of a lifter who pulls never helped, as Donny Shankle personal experience and body proportions are the same for every lifter, this is another fallacy in case you didn't catch it. Aks Kendrick Farris if heavy deadlifting, squatting and pressing for high reps helped him.

So what if Pendlay doesn't agree heavy pulls aren't appropriate? Chen Wuben does agree heavy pulls are appropriate, why is he wrong? You don't think the Chinese have researched both the Soviets and the Bulgarians?

[GoJu]

why are you comparing power lifting to oly lifting. especially using a powerlifter who rounds his upper back on purpose?

I'm not, I'm making an example.

EasternHammer and CH555 think any pulling over 110% will change the lift mechanics to the point where the pull will look like a powerlifting deadlift for any and all lifters regardless of body proportion, which is wrong.

[CHS55]

Pointing out logical fallacies is a fallacy now, I don't even....

You're smarter than that.

The Chinese are a clear picture of the exception to the 'rule' of never pull over 100% so they're a good example.

Now you're giving me an example of a lifter who pulls never helped, as Donny Shankle personal experience and body proportions are the same for every lifter, this is another fallacy in case you didn't catch it.

So what if Pendlay doesn't agree heavy pulls aren't appropriate? Chen Wuben does agree heavy pulls are appropriate, why is he wrong? You don't think the Chinese have researched both the Soviets and the Bulgarians?

Not all chinese do heavy pulls.

So you do heavy pulls? Let me see how much you've progressed from doing over maximal heavy pulling, whether or not you need them or not.

I think there's a bigger picture than them doing heavy pulls.

[GoJu]

Not all chinese do heavy pulls.

So you do heavy pulls? Let me see how much you've progressed from doing over maximal heavy pulling, whether or not you need them or not.

I think there's a bigger picture than them doing heavy pulls.

Most of the Chinese do heavy pulling and deadlifting, if they don't it's because they don't need to do it and are focusing on something else.

I actually don't do heavy pulling right now, because FOR ME it didn't help, I KNOW it will help for other people though.

There isn't, you're the one over complicating the subject.

Why is chen wuben wrong and the coach who drilled this mindset into your head right?

[DaTruth1]

I think that until you get to an advanced level, these training details are not going to make a significant difference... It depends on the body type and the trainee's weaknesses. I have a weak as fuark back and weak legs, so I am phasing in a bunch of pulls and more squatting volume after my next meet, not much to it.

[feces99]

Most of the Chinese do heavy pulling and deadlifting, if they don't it's because they don't need to do it and are focusing on something else.

I actually don't do heavy pulling right now, because FOR ME it didn't help, I KNOW it will help for other people though.

There isn't, you're the one over complicating the subject.

how long were you pulling, how did you implement it, did you try to implement them in different ways before you dismissed them?

All of us need to get stronger. Pulling, squatting, and pressing are vital parts of that.

[GoJu]

how long were you pulling, how did you implement it, did you try to implement them in different ways before you dismissed them?

All of us need to get stronger. Pulling, squatting, and pressing are vital parts of that.

I do pulling, but atm they're lighter so I can learn the put the bar into the power position better, I'm probably going to come back to them later. I'm doing more squat volume now as well, higher reps. I mostly did 3 to 5 triples at about 100% and sometimes deadlifts that were way heavier but it turned out not as useful as going to max several times a weak, for the snatch anyway. Cleans are another story, plus flexibility issues abounded for me at the time.