Whenever a weightlifter demonstrates great strength, he is an exception

[GoJu]

Kool-aid jokes aside, the point remains. I just don't think this type of very heavy pulling is necessary to snatch or clean more. There is very little benefit to deadlifting 120 kg more than your best clean. The carryover , in my view, is quite negligible.

This is not something you've logically thought about, you're just parroting what Bud Charninga says about the subject; both him and you are wrong.

[gfreak]

So wait...people are actually saying, that in a strength sport...being stronger...is a disadvantage? what?

[EasternHammer]

So wait...people are actually saying, that in a strength sport...being stronger...is a disadvantage? what?

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that getting stronger in the deadlift DOES NOT mean you will also become stronger in the snatch or clean. They are two different excercises. There is very little carryover between the two, and even less for experienced lifters.

Goju, riddle me this: If we went to the Olympics or world champs, and got all the medalists together. Do you think the men with the biggest snatches and cleans, would also be the men with the biggest deadlifts? Because I don't, perhaps you have a differing opinion.

[Engineer_Guy]

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that getting stronger in the deadlift DOES NOT mean you will also become stronger in the snatch or clean. They are two different excercises. There is very little carryover between the two, and even less for experienced lifters.

Goju, riddle me this: If we went to the Olympics or world champs, and got all the medalists together. Do you think the men with the biggest snatches and cleans, would also be the men with the biggest deadlifts? Because I don't, perhaps you have a differing opinion.

Sure, having a strong pull from the floor doesn't mean he will clean more than if he was pulling less. However being able to casually pull nearly 800 lbs probably doesn't hurt his chances of having a strong clean

[EasternHammer]

Sure, having a strong pull from the floor doesn't mean he will clean more than if he was pulling less. However being able to casually pull nearly 800 lbs probably doesn't hurt his chances of having a strong clean

Logically, you're exactly right. But how then can we explain the success of the Bulgarians, the Turks, the Iranians, none of whom employ this kind of supermaximal pull in their training. Just because it's logical doesn't make it true. The point remains: Having a big deadlift/clean pull/inverted triple calf raise doesn't always translate into bigger snatches and cleans.

[Engineer_Guy]

Logically, you're exactly right. But how then can we explain the success of the Bulgarians, the Turks, the Iranians, none of whom employ this kind of supermaximal pull in their training. Just because it's logical doesn't make it true. The point remains: Having a big deadlift/clean pull/inverted triple calf raise doesn't always translate into bigger snatches and cleans.

Who says he does this in training?

[EasternHammer]

[QUOTE=Engineer_Guy;948815073]Who says he does this in training?


What lifter are you referring to?

[yummy22]

he looks really tall which doesn't effect the deadlift as much as it does the oly lifts



still pretty easy 245kg clean and he could have jerked it

on his website he says his best lifts are 202kg snatch and 245kg clean and jerk which puts him in the top 5 in the world

yeah he sure isn't a great oly lifter... misha has similar oly lifts and can deadlift over 900

the fact he is 275lbs and looks very lean tells me he is near 6'6 so can add a lot more weight to his frame

[GoJu]

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that getting stronger in the deadlift DOES NOT mean you will also become stronger in the snatch or clean. They are two different excercises. There is very little carryover between the two, and even less for experienced lifters.

Goju, riddle me this: If we went to the Olympics or world champs, and got all the medalists together. Do you think the men with the biggest snatches and cleans, would also be the men with the biggest deadlifts? Because I don't, perhaps you have a differing opinion.

Straw man.

Having a strong back in this sport is always an advantage.

[EasternHammer]

Straw man.

Having a strong back in this sport is always an advantage.

Well of course being strong is an advantage in weightlifting. No surprise there. The debate is whether or not very heavy pulls/deadlifts are the best way of achieving that strength. And I think they are not.

[Engineer_Guy]

The debate is whether or not very heavy pulls/deadlifts are the best way of achieving that strength. And I think they are not.

Where did anyone say they were the best way?

[EasternHammer]

Where did anyone say they were the best way?

Engineer, you're right no one explicitly said that. Point taken. I suppose I was just a bit irritated when the OP posted a video of an Oly lifter deadlifting/pulling 360 kg. as if it somehow proved that lifters "strength." In my mind, doing 190/230 is more than enough to prove that the guy is world-class strong. Because that's what it's all about, isn't it? Lifting more in the snatch and the jerk? Sorry if we got a bit derailed.

[CHS55]

Someone drank the Bud Charninga koolaid.

I think Charniga has a point; the mechanics start to change up a bit doing heavy deadlifts as opposed to heavy pulls. A lot of elite level lifters will push their pulls to over maximal weights, but I think the diminishing returns effect lies at about the point that the lifter is unable to assume a lordotic position on the spine, as well as the hips shooting up faster than the shoulders.

[yummy22]

Well of course being strong is an advantage in weightlifting. No surprise there. The debate is whether or not very heavy pulls/deadlifts are the best way of achieving that strength. And I think they are not.

Um nearly all the oly lifters do heavy pulls all the time though to be fair it is mostly either a clean high pull or snatch high pull. In this video it looked like he was just testing out his deadlift max. He has good leverages for the deadlift kind of like misha. Misha just barley missed out on qualifying for the olympics primarily due to politics and he does deadlifts often and just recently pulled 907 for nearly a double-I think he had it but looked mentally little out of it-

[EasternHammer]

Um nearly all the oly lifters do heavy pulls all the time though to be fair it is mostly either a clean high pull or snatch high pull. In this video it looked like he was just testing out his deadlift max. He has good leverages for the deadlift kind of like misha. Misha just barley missed out on qualifying for the olympics primarily due to politics and he does deadlifts often and just recently pulled 907 for nearly a double-I think he had it but looked mentally little out of it-

See but that is not true. I already mentioned the Bulgarians, Turks, and Iranians as teams which traditionally don't use these very heavy pulls. I think their success speaks for itself. Regarding Kokylaev, he is also active in powerlifting and strongman where the DL is a contested event, so I don't think we can make assertions based on his experience.

[WannaBeATank]

Isn't that common sense?

I mean Rippetoe is right, but not. How does a low bar squat, powerlifting deadlift, and press apply to olympic lifting? That's like saying a discus thrower should throw a shot put, because it allowed them to use more weight. It's just not efficient.

Now, increasing lifts that actually mimic the competition movement, that would help. Like in the hammer throwing world, they focus on throwing light/heavy weights with competition technique to build special strength, but they don't really focus on "raw strength" work, because it doesn't transfer over. What does getting a higher press do for the jerk, it's not the same speed, the same movement, it's not even the same muscles used!

Sorry, not directly at you, just a Rippetoe comment.

[GoJu]

See but that is not true. I already mentioned the Bulgarians, Turks, and Iranians as teams which traditionally don't use these very heavy pulls. I think their success speaks for itself. Regarding Kokylaev, he is also active in powerlifting and strongman where the DL is a contested event, so I don't think we can make assertions based on his experience.

The Chinese success speaks for itself, and they use pulls often, the Russians do as well, Kurlovich could deadlift 380kg and he wasn't a powerlifter or a strongman.

[GoJu]

I think Charniga has a point; the mechanics start to change up a bit doing heavy deadlifts as opposed to heavy pulls. A lot of elite level lifters will push their pulls to over maximal weights, but I think the diminishing returns effect lies at about the point that the lifter is unable to assume a lordotic position on the spine, as well as the hips shooting up faster than the shoulders.

Charninga's take on it has become a dogma rather than something people think logically about.

Lots of lifters hips shoot faster than the shoulders and they make the lift.

No one is arguing that pulling like Konstantinov will help your O-lifts, pulls and clean-style deadlifts done like in the OP video will.

[CHS55]

Charninga's take on it has become a dogma rather than something people think logically about.

Lots of lifters hips shoot faster than the shoulders and they make the lift.

No one is arguing that pulling like Konstantinov will help your O-lifts, pulls and clean-style deadlifts done like in the OP video will.

The same can be said on the other end of the spectrum; "The Chinese are doing it, the Russians are doing it" isn't something that will convince me to do so.

To me I'm not even so sure that incredibly heavy 'clean-style deadlifts' are necessary. I doubt that many coaches teach lifters to have their hips shoot faster than the shoulders; of course it becomes more and more likely to occur as the weight increases, particulary on deadlifts. I've heard of plenty of lifters that have progressed just fine with the no heavy pulling. I certainly don't think that clean pulls 100% or more are necessary either.

[disgorge89]

I'm not understanding what you're trying to say. Deadlifting ability has literally zero to do with the snatch/clean past a certain point variable with the snatch or clean in question

fyp

[GoJu]

The same can be said on the other end of the spectrum; "The Chinese are doing it, the Russians are doing it" isn't something that will convince me to do so.

To me I'm not even so sure that incredibly heavy 'clean-style deadlifts' are necessary. I doubt that many coaches teach lifters to have their hips shoot faster than the shoulders; of course it becomes more and more likely to occur as the weight increases, particulary on deadlifts. I've heard of plenty of lifters that have progressed just fine with the no heavy pulling. I certainly don't think that clean pulls 100% or more are necessary either.

Hips shooting up is something that happens on heavy lifts, no such thing as perfect technique.

What's necessary for one lifters is not necessary for another, a guy whose pull is a weakness (like long torso'd chinese) should be doing lots of pulls; a guy who has no issues in the pull should be pulling minimally or not at all.

Any one who says extra pulls are not necessary in any and all circumstances is thinking dogmatically.

[EasternHammer]

The Chinese success speaks for itself, and they use pulls often, the Russians do as well, Kurlovich could deadlift 380kg and he wasn't a powerlifter or a strongman.

Not to be a pest, lol, but you still haven't answered my question. Do you think the weightlifters with the biggest snatch/clean also have the biggest deadlift?

[GoJu]

Not to be a pest, lol, but you still haven't answered my question. Do you think the weightlifters with the biggest snatch/clean also have the biggest deadlift?

And I'm going to keep saying you're arguing against a straw man with that question.

[strengthsthetic]

what the **** am I reading

[EasternHammer]

And I'm going to keep saying you're arguing against a straw man with that question.

Well that's ok, it really doesn't matter. I'll summarize my thoughts here:

1) Posting an Olympic lifter doing xyz weight in a dfferent excercise doesn't really mean anything. The lifter in the original video has done 205/245 in training. Would he be less strong if he did pulls only with 260 kg instead of 360? The answer is no; he still does 205/245. That's the only thing that really matters. What they deadlift, squat, good morning, bicep curl, etc. isn't important.

2) If you are a lifter who uses pulls over 100% in training, which is fine, sooner or later there is a point where such pulling isn't very useful. The weight moves too slowly, the positions change, you would be better off spending time doing something else, etc. Achieving big numbers in supplementary exercises doesn't always equal big Oly lifts.

3) It's quite possible to be world-class while doing no +100% pulls at all. Literally hundreds of people have done it. So while some lifters might employ them in the gym, you can't say they all do.

[CHS55]

Hips shooting up is something that happens on heavy lifts, no such thing as perfect technique.

What's necessary for one lifters is not necessary for another, a guy whose pull is a weakness (like long torso'd chinese) should be doing lots of pulls; a guy who has no issues in the pull should be pulling minimally or not at all.

Any one who says extra pulls are not necessary in any and all circumstances is thinking dogmatically.

Straw man.


From that session alone, it looks as if the shoulders and hips are travelling upwards at just about the same rate; I don't really see the lifter's hips shooting up. It is a phenomenon that happens, and yes lots of lifters make lifts this way, but as I said I doubt coaches encourage it.I never said that there was perfect technique, but to me the hips shooting up is something that should be minimized; some of the best coaches of this era believe the same. I also never negated the benefits of pulling, just HEAVY pulling (Heavy as in weights approaching or exceeding a person's one rep max). I was saying that heavy pulls aren't necessary, and somehow you interpreted that as pulls in general aren't necessary. Where did I say that? Where are you basing your opinions off of with this heavy pulling philosophy?

[yummy22]

Another young russian lifter doing a heavy pull this time snatch pull

617@ 220

[GoJu]

Another young russian lifter doing a heavy pull this time snatch pull

617@ 220

We all know who's going to suck in the future.

[MegaDave]

brb, cleaning more than I deadlift...


Wait... Wut?

[dbk1]

I don't think anyone is saying that heavy pulls don't help/work. They definitely do, especially if a lifter is weak off the floor. I think what some people are suggesting is simply that they aren't necessary