5 x 5 versus German Volume Training

[Ontarian]

Hi all,

I would appreciate your feedback on this.
Aside from the difference in rep/set schemes, what are the other differences between doing a 5 x 5 workout program and GVT (i.e. purpose, goals, outcome/results of each workout protocol)?

I would assume 5 x 5 training aims for heavier lifts since it's only 5 sets/5 reps. And GVT, being 10 sets/10 reps would use lighter weights.

I am trying to decide which exercise regimen to follow.

Thanks to everyone for your feedback.

[BloodySalad]

5x5 is more of a strength orientated workout whereas GVT is aimed more at hypertrophy.

If you've just started lifting, a strength orientated program is what you need to do. You need to build strength before you can build mass. You also need to concentrate on compound movements rather than isolation work.

Try this: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4195843

[BLaaR]

5x5 is more of a strength orientated workout whereas GVT is aimed more at hypertrophy.

If you've just started lifting, a strength orientated program is what you need to do. You need to build strength before you can build mass. You also need to concentrate on compound movements rather than isolation work.

Try this: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4195843

^^^^^^^^^this.

What are your goals OP ?

Personally I would do a couple of months of 5x5 to nail down proper form and get a base strength to work from, form there you can decide which route to go.

IIRC keep in mind GVT is relatively long workout sessions.

[mellie369]

^^^^^^^^^this.

What are your goals OP ?

Personally I would do a couple of months of 5x5 to nail down proper form and get a base strength to work from, form there you can decide which route to go.

IIRC keep in mind GVT is relatively long workout sessions.

GVT is also very boring, in my opinion. And led to several joint problems from so many similar repetitive movements.

[Tommy W.]

GVT is brutal and I don't reccomend it for someone starting out

[djflex]

GVT is also very boring, in my opinion. And led to several joint problems from so many similar repetitive movements.

Agree the montony killed it for me. Lifting was just not fun...

[acrawlingchaos]

GVT is also very boring, in my opinion. And led to several joint problems from so many similar repetitive movements.

GVT is brutal and I don't reccomend it for someone starting out

So much this.^^^

GVT is not recommended for a novice. It is FAR more than a 10 x 10, it's disturbing. Brutal and boring.... you have to be damn near a Spartan to deal with this. ArchAngel in the journals uses this program and just reading what he puts himself through is nauseating.

A 5 x 5 program is MUCH more appropriate for a novice, but if you are a beginner, going to a novice program first for 3-6 months may be a better route.

AllPros, Starting Strength or Stronglifts is probably a better starting point.

[JOHN GARGANI]

5x5 is more of a strength orientated workout whereas GVT is aimed more at hypertrophy.

If you've just started lifting, a strength orientated program is what you need to do. You need to build strength before you can build mass. You also need to concentrate on compound movements rather than isolation work.

Try this: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4195843

an excellent summation, and could have ended the thread....

OP: you might notice, that everyone that followed said the same thing, in different ways...

I would think your question was answered pretty straight...using only your height/weight ratio, I would guess SS is the way to go for now...

[Tomsolomon111]

I so wish I hadn't read this thread! I have been doing strength training for a couple of months and tried the GVT today after reading this. OMG I feel shagged, had to sleep afterwards I was exhausted. I have a feeling this is going to be a long, low recovery! On the upside my pecs, delts, triceps and biceps are pumped bigger than they have ever been! Fantastic!!!! Instant gain, whoot!

[ArchAngel'73]

ArchAngel in the journals uses this program and just reading what he puts himself through is nauseating.

Why, thank-you.


I had 2.5 years of lifting under my belt before using GVT (in my 20's).
Never went back to it until last year and imo, it works great.
The only good thing GVT would be good for a newb is the CNS training. The rest is a little too advanced.

[ArchAngel'73]

gvt's a waste of time unless you're coming off of a layoff and calling on muscle memory to get you back to where you were before the layoff...

just another program that was designed for people who are aided by augmented test levels

I respectfuly disagree.

[Tommy W.]

gvt's a waste of time unless you're coming off of a layoff and calling on muscle memory to get you back to where you were before the layoff...

just another program that was designed for people who are aided by augmented test levels

Totally disagree. It's one of the hardest programs I've ever been on and difficult to stick with due to the recovery required.

[Ontarian]

Wow...thanks for all the replies everyone. Very much appreciated. Just to add as a follow up to all the comments.

I'm not a beginner to lifting. In fact, the last time I did GVT was about a dozen years ago. And yes, it was brutal. Since then, a back injury in the gym in 2007 put me out for quite a long time and it's only in the past year that I've returned to the gym with some consistency.

I'm nowhere near lifting the weights I did prior to injury (herniated disc at L4-L5), but my goal now is to start putting on the muscle mass I lost in the last four years, (mindful of my herniation and low back flare ups that occur from time to time).

So, that's why I'm inquiring if GVT (as a muscle mass builder) may be appropriate for my current goals.

Again, thanks for all the feedback. Feel free to add if you like.

Good luck to all

[acrawlingchaos]

If you are coming back after a long lay off and your lifts have suffered significantly, you are most likely (for all intents and purposes) a novice. Having a proper dietary plan is going to be equally important in putting mass back on.

[ArchAngel'73]

you wanna train whatever bodypart you're working to fail at 60 percent of your true strength have at

Hypertrophy is the name of my game. Strength has very little do do with it.

That's pride talking brah. 1 of the things that has gotta go out the window with GVT.

but I do get you.

[El Conquistador]

GVT for the entire body is overkill, but I wouldn't consider it useless. Vince Gironda liked it for a lagging muscle group as opposed to using it for the entire body, and I couldn't agree more. (in b4 "Who's Vince Gironda?")

[JOHN GARGANI]

GVT for the entire body is overkill, but I wouldn't consider it useless. Vince Gironda liked it for a lagging muscle group as opposed to using it for the entire body, and I couldn't agree more. (in b4 "Who's Vince Gironda?")

Vince also had a variation, in which he would have his trainee do 15 sets of 5 reps......the only rest, in between sets, was a couple of long deep breaths....

[drudixon]

I respectfuly disagree.

This. I made more gains mass wise on gvt than any other program (after year 1). It's a humbling program and you really learn a lot about yourself. I definitely will do it again.

[El Conquistador]

There was a good modified version on T-nation where the 10 sets of 10 was divided into three different exercises for each muscle group so you are getting different angles/exercises for each muscle group (I think the article was called GVT 2000 or something similar).

I also liked Poliquin's second phase of GVT where it's actually 10x6 with heavier weight.

[TheRealAPOLLOS]

gvt's a waste of time unless you're coming off of a layoff and calling on muscle memory to get you back to where you were before the layoff...

just another program that was designed for people who are aided by augmented test levels

Couldn't disagree more. Every so often I will cycle in a few sessions of GVT to my routine, and whenever I do, I soon see rapid mass gains. For the record, I'm not on any sort of "augmentation."

Like others have said, it is brutal. It wipes me out. Forces me to get a good night sleep, I have no choice. When I go to bed after a GVT session, I sleep deep and soundly. Probably my body's way of ensuring a full and proper recovery.

Personally for me, it's been a good tool to mix into the rotation from time to time. It's a great plateau buster. It does take a lot of mental discipline and serious fortitude though.

[dc3251]

New brand new to trying 10 by 10 with tempo. I am trying this out because now in my 40s my joints ache from heavy lifting because old sports injuries and wear and tear.

Any feedback would be useful.
Today I used 10 *10 with limited rest on
Close grip bench
Squat
Lat pull

[TaaDow187]

This thread is from 2012!!!

[BrownBear1968]

New brand new to trying 10 by 10 with tempo. I am trying this out because now in my 40s my joints ache from heavy lifting because old sports injuries and wear and tear.

Any feedback would be useful.
Today I used 10 *10 with limited rest on
Close grip bench
Squat
Lat pull

As you posted on this thread, I think you would be interested to decide (or confirm) if GVT can be your best option.

According to what you mentioned regarding age and joints, I would suggest you first try 5 x 5 instead of GVT.

Why 5x5? My suggestion is the following

Beginning the 5x5 with only the 20 kg barbell, and increase the load weekly according to the 5x5 program, you could "talk to your body more gently". For example, in some week you will discover what load can be considered hard for your bench, another week the deadlift, and so on.

According to your conditioning, it is possible you reach saturation points in each one of your lifts. At such point, you can use deload periods, but until there, your conditioning will be better. This time, would be a wonderful one, to try a two-month GVT routine, to gain mass, work with smaller loads, more reps and, after this return to the 5x5 again. And... you overtake the previous saturation points.

Good luck

[JungleBoots]

I find GVT a nice break from 5X5 - but if I ran it more than 4 weeks, it may drive me nuts. 10 sets of anything that doesn't involve a blonde or redhead with thick thighs is just too boring for me.

that said, having run Wendler for just over a year, I'll probably look into something GVT-like for hypertrophy, but more along the lines of PHUL or something to that effect. As others sited, GVT is boring. GVT is time consuming. GVT risks joint issues.

I am aware however that it works for some, but for me, it was always island like isolation.

[drkelly74]

I've been basically doing this for about 1.5 weeks. It is tough, and I find that I need more sleep. My muscles definitely feel fuller. My plan when I started was to stick with it for 4-6 weeks.

[Aguisa92]

For me, I find GVT best for cutting. It burns more calories than a regular lifting session, you feel like you're burning fat during it, and it works perfectly for a short 8 - 10 week cut.

It's not supposed to be sustained for more than a few weeks - and even if it could be, as others say, it is brutal and boring. My measurements suggest I have retained more muscle mass when cutting like this, too.