Most dissapointing 105 and 105+ at olympics in quite a while?

[tfk44]

America dopes as much if not more than all other countries in other sports though, and they are better at it. See track and field athletes lol. If there's no correlation between wealth and doping then inherently it's a level playing field when doping is involved.

Ilya is the best because he is the best. You just said poor nations dope more than rich ones so f.x. that hairy Georgian Gia probably dopes just as much as Ilya yet can't even close to outlift him in a weight class above him. There must be more than drugs going on and Ilya is a crazy athlete.

Again I'm just guessing Georgia and Kaz have access to the same kinds of roids.

You can't look at these guys and disregard individual talent because of drugs, that's absurd.

It's not really as simple as "poor countries have dope, therefore everyone has the same dope and uses the same dope." Doping isn't something like shoes, where everyone can afford it so they just go out and buy what works for them. Every doper has a different chemist devising different compounds and combinations of compounds. The limiting factors are more things like "what can I combine with what, how much can I give this athlete without killing him, how much is he willing to take, and how can I make sure none of this shows up on testing?" than the money involved.

How can we know what Ilyin is on, or what the hairy Georgian dude is on? Even if they are both doping, I doubt they're on similar stuff. And even if they were on the same things, how do we know the difference in ability isn't related to Ilyin's body responding to dope much better?

Obviously we can't disregard talent just because guys are using drugs, but it raises serious questions as to how much is being accomplished due to talent, and how much is because of the drugs? For all I know, Ilyin might be completely clean and just an amazing talent. But with the drug thing, there's always a whole separate category of questions about "medicine" that need asking and answering, which is a shame.

[DanielEver]

Actually your post adds nothing of value so why don't you clarify.

as yoy wish.

his original point was like

The drug-aided lifter can recover faster than the natural lifter, gain strength faster, and gain more strength, among other advantages.

that is a completely correct statemet, as all that improvements are surely being a result of drug usage.

ur reply is a mere attempt to disprove a statement, which is made by yourself and acribed to your opponent, since he didn't say that drug usage is the one and only factor leading to victory.

[tfk44]

More training = more work.

edit: sht Fuzzy's alive!

Drugs make more training easier, not harder.

[scarboro]

It's not really as simple as "poor countries have dope, therefore everyone has the same dope and uses the same dope." Doping isn't something like shoes, where everyone can afford it so they just go out and buy what works for them. Every doper has a different chemist devising different compounds and combinations of compounds. The limiting factors are more things like "what can I combine with what, how much can I give this athlete without killing him, how much is he willing to take, and how can I make sure none of this shows up on testing?" than the money involved.

How can we know what Ilyin is on, or what the hairy Georgian dude is on? Even if they are both doping, I doubt they're on similar stuff. And even if they were on the same things, how do we know the difference in ability isn't related to Ilyin's body responding to dope much better?

Obviously we can't disregard talent just because guys are using drugs, but it raises serious questions as to how much is being accomplished due to talent, and how much is because of the drugs? For all I know, Ilyin might be completely clean and just an amazing talent. But with the drug thing, there's always a whole separate category of questions about "medicine" that need asking and answering, which is a shame.

Right now it's as simple as pass a test="clean" lifter. Ilya has to be tested (mandatory iwf for top 3). So at the very least we know he was "clean" during the olympics. Athletes in North America have access to better drugs than anywhere else in the world and at more affordable prices per living standard. The only reason we assume most of our weightlifters are clean is due to the stricter testing, not because they can't get their hands on it or they're too stupid to use drugs.

You don't need better drugs or a team of chemists, all you need is to avoid testing (Klokov/akkaev/apti not tested this entire year). The compounds used have been around for decades and are still game changers.

[fraverdenstreet]

Drugs make more training easier, not harder.

no.
drugs make training harder, because you train harder on them.
this is why not everyone is meant to take them. they arent a shortcut. you are supposed to work 2x as hard on them, not take it easier

[WHT_LIGHTNING]

no.
drugs make training harder, because you train harder on them.
this is why not everyone is meant to take them. they arent a shortcut. you are supposed to work 2x as hard on them, not take it easier

yes and no

without the drugs, the body would not be capable of even training like that

So the drugs do it make it easier to train harder

if that makes sense

I don't think anybody here thinks/is saying that guys on drugs (top level olympians, etc) don't train hard, because that obviously is not the case, just that without the drugs, they would not be able to train that hard...

[chigiskov]

as yoy wish.

his original point was like



that is a completely correct statemet, as all that improvements are surely being a result of drug usage.

ur reply is a mere attempt to disprove a statement, which is made by yourself and acribed to your opponent, since he didn't say that drug usage is the one and only factor leading to victory.

My reply was concerning his second paragraph about doping being an arms race, smart guy.

[chigiskov]

It's not really as simple as "poor countries have dope, therefore everyone has the same dope and uses the same dope." Doping isn't something like shoes, where everyone can afford it so they just go out and buy what works for them. Every doper has a different chemist devising different compounds and combinations of compounds. The limiting factors are more things like "what can I combine with what, how much can I give this athlete without killing him, how much is he willing to take, and how can I make sure none of this shows up on testing?" than the money involved.

How can we know what Ilyin is on, or what the hairy Georgian dude is on? Even if they are both doping, I doubt they're on similar stuff. And even if they were on the same things, how do we know the difference in ability isn't related to Ilyin's body responding to dope much better?

Obviously we can't disregard talent just because guys are using drugs, but it raises serious questions as to how much is being accomplished due to talent, and how much is because of the drugs? For all I know, Ilyin might be completely clean and just an amazing talent. But with the drug thing, there's always a whole separate category of questions about "medicine" that need asking and answering, which is a shame.

I kinda feel like you are going back and forth on your position a bit. Now your position is that it isn't fair because people respond differently to drugs?

As for the teams having better chemists...America still has the best ones. Look at runners, they are doped to the gills. Guys get paid hundreds of thousands USD to advise these athletes on what to take.

[jb4476]

depends on the person, sumo is easier for some, but not all

I think feet to the plates is kinda lame, but it doesn't really bother me. Same with low bar barely parallel squats, kinda lame, but idgaf really.

LBBS feels super awkward. The only time that squat position feels natural is if the weight is over my head. I've ass-to-ankles-with-a-5-second-pause front squatted more than I ever LBBSed.

[chigiskov]

This is what retards actually believe

[tfk44]

Right now it's as simple as pass a test="clean" lifter. Ilya has to be tested (mandatory iwf for top 3). So at the very least we know he was "clean" during the olympics. Athletes in North America have access to better drugs than anywhere else in the world and at more affordable prices per living standard. The only reason we assume most of our weightlifters are clean is due to the stricter testing, not because they can't get their hands on it or they're too stupid to use drugs.

You don't need better drugs or a team of chemists, all you need is to avoid testing (Klokov/akkaev/apti not tested this entire year). The compounds used have been around for decades and are still game changers.

Yes and no. I think the reasons behind dope use for athletes are a whole lot more complicated than "can you get it and are you smart enough to use it?" Athletes use dope for a number of reasons, and other athletes don't use dope for a host of reasons. I don't think "access" or "too stupid to use drugs" ranks too highly on either list. I'll agree that stricter testing is definitely a reason against use, but far from the only one.

And if dopers intend to compete with other dopers, they continually have to improve their doping regimen. Nobody is staying static with their drug program.

[tfk44]

yes and no

without the drugs, the body would not be capable of even training like that

So the drugs do it make it easier to train harder

if that makes sense

I don't think anybody here thinks/is saying that guys on drugs (top level olympians, etc) don't train hard, because that obviously is not the case, just that without the drugs, they would not be able to train that hard...

Exactly. Drugs aren't a magic bean that makes you a better lifter without the work. But they make lifting heavier, more often, and hitting more PRs more attainable than they would be without drugs. They aren't going to turn me into Klokov, but Klokov on drugs is certainly going to be better than Klokov without drugs.

[tfk44]

I kinda feel like you are going back and forth on your position a bit. Now your position is that it isn't fair because people respond differently to drugs?

As for the teams having better chemists...America still has the best ones. Look at runners, they are doped to the gills. Guys get paid hundreds of thousands USD to advise these athletes on what to take.

The drug issue is complicated. It's never going to be as simple as "who has the best dope, who can pay the most for it, therefore they are going to win." Different athletes use different drugs to address different problems. Drugs aren't a fairness issue that affect everyone equally. They are more like an entirely new variable, akin to things like strength and technique. Only strength and technique are things directly attributable to the athlete, and attained with years of hard work. Drugs are just a variable thrown in there by a mad scientist in the background. I want the sport to be as purely about lifting as possible, and I don't really see the value in adding drugs to the equation. Sure the totals get bigger, records get broken, and the limits of human performance keep getting pushed farther out, but to me the costs aren't worth it from a competitive standpoint.

[SquinkysGhost]

In my opinion training on drugs is easy. Training without drugs is hard because a) It doesn't make any ****ing sense and we all know it but some of us decide to go against our logical brains and b) It takes longer to get close to your potential without drugs. Like 20 years or more. On drugs it's not a slow climb, it's a fast run to the top, trying to stay healthy while you run.

I don't mind athletes using drugs as long as they are honest to themselves and accept and realise the possible consequences. Not this "it's not really cheating or anything" bullcrap. Yes it is cheating. But so ****ing what. As long as you don't live in denial like some kind of an addict.

Never understood this. I've pulled both, the sumo deadlift is harder.

It doesn't matter which one is harder or easier or are they equally hard. I don't like sumo because it's not a real pulling motion, it's some kind of a squatting motion. Deadlift should be a real pull.

[DanielEver]

My reply was concerning his second paragraph about doping being an arms race, smart guy.

nowhere in his post it was told that roids are the main factor of creating a champion.

[chigiskov]

nowhere in his post it was told that roids are the main factor of creating a champion.

3/10 for making me respond I guess

[fraverdenstreet]

you're wearing a trench coat, it's french, you look stylish

[BadSnatch]

you're wearing a trench coat, it's french, you look stylish

You On Your Period, With No Tampon
You Kneel Down And Get With The Vibe
Your Period Blood Has Crystalized

[fraverdenstreet]

You On Your Period, With No Tampon
You Kneel Down And Get With The Vibe
Your Period Blood Has Crystalized

you're covered in blood, rubbing your boobs, feeling nice

[feces99]

you're covered in blood, rubbing your boobs, feeling nice

reminds me of GG Allin.

[Pokarface]

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