Success is based off extraordinary opportunity, not individual merit (discuss)

[MineTurntoFap]

This discussion of luck and it's role in success and virtue is actually one that dates (at least) back to Aristotle. It's kind of an interesting question, in my opinion. While I have read the Outliers book I am not wholly convinced of its conclusion. The first point I would like to make is that virtue, for all intents and purposes, is not dependent on luck and circumstance. On the other hand, success might be. This shouldn't bother us to much, though, because it indicates that we are capable of achieving our highest virtue without worrying about circumstance too much. What we lose is the ability to get rich, but even this is suspect to much argument.

Psychologically, it is clear (to me at any rate) that a man benefits most from adopting an internal lotus of control over his soul and body. To give up this control via arguments against 'free will' or happenstance is to sacrifice what is means to be a man in the first place: a human being who can stand, intentionally, strongly, and willingly for something. Regardless of what empirical evidence might seem to tell us (and if it's telling us, it is certainly whispering!) it is our very definition of man to have meaningful intentional states. Thus I see it that this attitude promoted in Outliers and other 'modern ideas' is one of denying man.

Why deny man? I'm not sure, but I would guess because it feels better to deny man then to rise up to the challenges and pessimism that a strong manhood requires. In other words, we can say to ourselves: why sacrifice, work hard, and make something of ourselves if its really all up to chance? It makes my fat ass watching television feel much better about my worthlessness.







































































OP's a *******

fukkin grade A post

10/10 would read again

[sellerdoar]

so much delusion ITT.

do you think you would even know the name Bill Gates if he grew up with the desire to become an NBA player? the simple fact that he was born with a passion for programming is a factor that was out of his control. and that's ignoring the fact that he was born within a 2-year period that was optimal for the first wave of technology founders, grew up wealthy, went to one of the only schools in the world that offered programming and who's wealthy PTA members could support the program once funding ran out, happened to live within walking distance of the only universities in the nation that had a 24-hr programming lab which allowed him to accumulate 10,000+ hours of experience, and any number of other factors that contributed to his success.

but no, all of that was irrelevant. he is just the single most decdicated person on the planet.

[sdfx]

Come at me OP

[imafungi]

no you ******* OP Outliers says that it still takes merit, but it takes BOTH merit and circumstance. sitting around poasting this crap on the MISC won't make you a CEO go out and get a useful degree

[RobbinBanks]

Success may be a result of opportunity, but no one is going to be successful by sitting on their arse

100% agree. Hardwork and effort is required for success but it does not automatically mean you achieve anything. Thats the difference I think. Some people think if they only bust there a$$ they will be ceo'n 10kday, but theres more to it than that.

[RobbinBanks]

.

do you think you would even know the name Bill Gates if he grew up with the desire to become an NBA player? the simple fact that he was born with a passion for programming is a factor that was out of his control.

agreed, even our goals can be kind of random. What if tiger woods' dad was obsesssed with football and not golf? How far would tiger have gone in football? nobody knows, but I dont think he would be a GOAT thats for sure

[Mongoose_Man]

It all boils down to one simple phrase:

"playing the hand you are dealt"


Life is like a game of poker... You get what you get, and everyone's hand is different... What matters is how you play it and a little luck getting the right cards... And some people can bluff well a d win the game of life...

So yes and no I agree with op... It's a hard scale to balance...

Example... Some kid could have a 200 iq on some poverty tribe and physical Olympian genetics... But his tribe is so secluded they serve him no purpose there and no one knows him... That's a ****ty hand... Just like all those kids born into poverty hell...

[Lpenny]

In my case, you are correct OP. I'm doing very well for my age right now, and it is completely because of my family. My dad makes good money and paid for me to go to a nice private school from K-12 and get a great education. Also, another key thing about my education is that I grew up with friends who's parents also make good money. So my childhood friends, who are poised to succeed, and their parents are all potential connections. I'm currently working a comfortable, well-paying job, which I got because of my older brother. So sure, I put in a good amount of work, but I've been given some nice advantages that have set me on the path to success.

[AlexLifts]

Good post OP.

[blumpkinbob]

Strong this.

OP, people who have extraordinary opportunity will obviously have a better chance at success than those who have no opportunity. I don't need to read a book to know that. Although individuals with good work ethic, talent and a solid set of morals will make that extraordinary opportunity on their own if life doesn't present it to them by default.

It sounds like you've accepted a fatalistic mindset where the only means of success come from someone giving it to you.

Kind of like this jackass:

Exactly this. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out people like Bill Gates were more privledged than me growing up and it doesn't take reading a book for me to understand that depsite his advantages, I gurantee he has worked harder and spent more hours honing his craft than any single person on this website. That i can almost gurantee. That's what catapults Bill Gates into that 1% of the population that I, nor anyone else in this forum is in. Now you can keep your mindset how you want OP but you should really examine what the author of your book is really saying. Although I have not read it myself, I think a bigger theme that you should take away from it is that not everyone is presented with the same opportunities but that is the nature of the beast. Some will be richer, some will be poorer. Some will be smarter, some will be dumber. I don't concern myself with these realities of life. When it comes down to it, I'm going to evaluate myself at the end of the day on whether i worked harder than that poorer, or richer person. And in my mind that is whats going to determine my success because that is whats going to set me apart for person A or person B and thats what is going to create opportunity for me.

Also, who said a measure of success is whether or not you are in the top 1% financially. I am definitely not striving for that and that is not my definition of success.

[7399martyn]

Of course, but the harder you work, the more opportunities you get, so it goes together.

[eXcelerate]

Exactly this. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out people like Bill Gates were more privledged than me growing up and it doesn't take reading a book for me to understand that depsite his advantages, I gurantee he has worked harder and spent more hours honing his craft than any single person on this website. That i can almost gurantee. That's what catapults Bill Gates into that 1% of the population that I, nor anyone else in this forum is in. Now you can keep your mindset how you want OP but you should really examine what the author of your book is really saying. Although I have not read it myself, I think a bigger theme that you should take away from it is that not everyone is presented with the same opportunities but that is the nature of the beast. Some will be richer, some will be poorer. I don't concern myself with these realities of life. When it comes down to it, I'm going to evaluate myself at the end of the day on whether i worked harder than that poorer, or richer person. And in my mind that is whats going to determine my success because that is whats going to set me apart for person A or person B and thats what is going to create opportunity for me.

Also, who said a measure of success is whether or not you are in the top 1% financially. I am definitely not striving for that and that is not my definition of success.

I completely realize that Gates worked hard regardless of his opportunies, ive mentioned that in my post.

[RobbinBanks]

I gurantee he has worked harder and spent more hours honing his craft than any single person on this website. That i can almost gurantee.

what about all the other talented programmers who went through harvard trying to emulate him? none of them are working as hard either?

Also, who said a measure of success is whether or not you are in the top 1% financially. I am definitely not striving for that and that is not my definition of success.

success is different for everyone, but most people think of success as including riches. how much, well thats up to you but my idea is that it should be somewhat elite

[blumpkinbob]

What about those programmers? Should I feel sorry for them because they weren't as smart or as talented as Gates? How do you know those opther programmers weren't even more privleged than him? This is irrelevant discussion because you don't even know the background of those programmers and your using an imagined concept to support your theory. Maybe Gates did work harder than everyone in his class. You don't know these supposed programmers and neither do I so you can't use that as an argument. At least I have some evidence to back my theory because we all know Bill Gates and you're asking about nameless programmers.

[NHSport]

Luck is when preperation meets opportunity.


Whilst I agree that some get handed a golden ticket, it certainly does not account for all that are successful (and it appears most base 'success' on income making abilities)

Many people individually raise themselves out of economic disparity and desperation situations thru sheer hard work and cleverness. To think otherwise is just excuse making for being a lazy fuk.

[Metonic]

I agree to a point, and he makes a great case using examples of Bill Gates, or Bill Joy, or those Jewish lawyers in New York during the Depression era. One thing you have to understand is that though they were given the opportunity to achieve, he makes it a point to state that these individuals had to be "smart enough" to accomplish this task. Even then, they had to put in the work to master their craft, which he explains stating in order to master a skill you must put in about 10,000 hours. Because Bill Gates had the opportunity to practice software of those computer terminals day and night, he had developed his skill to the point when the opportunity presented itself, he was ready. At the same time, you can't just be some bum off the street and expect to achieve success - in the book he traces the legacies and family histories of these extraordinary individuals and you often see at the beginning, they are low class garment workers or this or that, and they work hard and provide the opportunity for their children to become successful - kind of a right place/right time scenario.

The products of the events in our lives lead to success, very little is it individual talent or merit.

If anyone is really interested in this, read the book Outliers, it explains how the general public defines successful people based off how hard they worked or some "god given talent". But the author looks deeper into these people, into their lives, where they were born, where they went to school, their education, their influences(a major one), people they've met along the way who gave them work opportunities, etc. It's really interesting and i'm not done reading the book but it's very well written and provides tons of examples of how success is more than just "talent" or hard work.

Edit: I am not saying hard work is not a part of success, but its not the only or largest part. One of the many examples is Bill Gates who coded for thousands of hours on computers in the 90's... sure he put in a lot of work, but he was one of the few given access to high-tech time-sharing computers allowing him to code because he went to a rich high school, when the rest of the world did not have them yet because they were very expensive. And Steve Jobs, who grew up knowing one of the founders from Hewlett-Packerd who helped him in his younger years. That's like aspiring to be a clothes designer and growing up right next to Giorgio Armani.

Edit 2: Lol at those calling me a *******, please grow up and learn to have a serious discussion. I'm not disagreeing with anyone's views, I am merely stating how opportunity plays a critical role in many people's success.

[RobbinBanks]

Many people individually raise themselves out of economic disparity and desperation situations thru sheer hard work and cleverness. To think otherwise is just excuse making for being a lazy fuk.

I agree that almost anyone who really wants to can avoid being poor, hungry, and desperate through effort. but real "success", like attaining some unique and special position in life like ceo, needs more than just effort.

[vopcho]

I think the reason a lot of people refuse to believe that opportunity can trump determination is because they don't want to give up their perceived control over their lives. What they don't realize is that this control is an illusory one - there was never such a control to begin with. Your life is entirely determined by genes and environment, both of which you can't control, nor did you choose. From then on out, those two go interacting for the remainder of your life. What you end up with is your life. What part do you play in it? Well, you're the observer who's there to experience it all, thinking he's at the helm of the ship, when in reality it's the engineers down below steering the ship. If you look at it this way, it becomes trivial to say that external influences can play fundamentally life-changing roles in your life. It's simply one of the two factors that go on to make up your life - to say that one can overcome the other is like saying a car can will it's way out of an impending car crash.

[yos123]

Luck is when preparation meets opportunity.

[Boba155]

Good post OP.

However, you need to read beyond simply Outliers. The book has recieved a large deal of criticism because it assumes that "being lucky" and the "Rule of 10,000 Hours" are not intertwined.

In reality (as many books published after the Outliers go into detail about), putting in an enormous amount of work into a subject you are passionate about CREATES "lucky" oppurtunities. By putting in 10,000 plus hours into a subject (which would only be possible if you were passionate about the subject in the first place), you effectively "master" the subject (for instance, Gladwell could not find anyone who put in 10,000 hours and was not INCREDIBLE at what they did). When you master a subject, you realize that you have learned all you can and you attempt to contribute your OWN substance to the subject. This is what "creates" a lucky oppurtunity.

For instance, by the time that Bill Gates began using the university computer, he had already coded for 5,000+ hours (he was a fanatic about it when he was young). Simply put, he learned all he could about the subject from books and other resources, and so he began SEARCHING for a place to greater expand his talents. Most people don't know that Bill Gates actually talked to multiple schools that had the same technology as the one he grew up near. Simply put, he MADE the oppurtunity himself, and if he didn't live near a school and wasn't funded by wealthy PTA's, he would have accomplished his dreams anyway, it simply would've took him a bit longer (since he would have had to travel to the other school for college).

In short, by putting in an enormous amount of work into a subject you are passionate about, you begin to create lucky oppurtunities for yourself, such as Bill Gates literally calling the heads of computer departments around the country to use their technology. This certainly does not spell success, but simply put, if you don't put in an extrodinary amount of work and passion for your craft, you will never "miss a lucky oppurtunity", because simply put, a master of a craft CREATES those lucky oppurtunities.

[stefano445]

It's ALSO based on an opportunity, yes. If you read the book Outliers you will understand. But it's also tons of hard work.

edit: lol, didn't read OP and now I did and noticed you were writing about the book Outliers

[SherlockBrolmes]

Strong Obama logic ITT

"you didn't build that!"

[TheNewAddiction]

Largely agree with this...BUT...you still need to be prepared so when the opportunity does come along, you're ready. But it's true about connections, locations and the like has a lot to do with it. "Right time, right place..."

that book is on my reading list...gotta finish up grad school though first....

TNA

[RobbinBanks]

I think the reason a lot of people refuse to believe that opportunity can trump determination is because they don't want to give up their perceived control over their lives. What they don't realize is that this control is an illusory one - there was never such a control to begin with. Your life is entirely determined by genes and environment, both of which you can't control, nor did you choose. From then on out, those two go interacting for the remainder of your life. What you end up with is your life. What part do you play in it? Well, you're the observer who's there to experience it all, thinking he's at the helm of the ship, when in reality it's the engineers down below steering the ship. If you look at it this way, it becomes trivial to say that external influences can play fundamentally life-changing roles in your life. It's simply one of the two factors that go on to make up your life - to say that one can overcome the other is like saying a car can will it's way out of an impending car crash.

100% agreed, repped.

[arn710]

What you're saying is right on OP

[superman1810]

Spot sold

[Misc_Lurker]

Depends on your definition of success but I tend to agree with the statement. For example, there are tons of talented musicians/song writers out there who play in ****ty bars while there are talentless lucky/connected people who are on the pop charts. Most CEOs of large corporations got there through a combination of hard work and connections with the connections being more important I think.

However, to reach a moderate level of success I think is more based on persistence and determination while elevating to elite levels of success (top 1%) is largely opportunity.

Agreed 100%

[Tom117]

Agreed. I'd think of Joe Rogan as the perfect example. He's not particularly talented in anything. Everything he does is average at best (except his commentating love his ufc commentating haha). Yet he has been given so many perfect opportunities that he lives a life we all dream of. He himself thanks everyone for the opportunities he was given and constantly mentions how lucky he was.

[Casser12]

You make your own luck IMO.

[plsmire]

"Not everyone who works hard is rewarded, but all those who succeed have worked hard"