***The Official Atheist and Christian Friendly Discussion***

[OldFartTom]

Not 'could be', but definitely. You were bull****ting and using one of the weakest debate ploys, ever and for sure, you don't even know WTF 'thought mistaking process for entity' even means. All you're doing in the above statement is expanding on your original bull****. I'm not going to waste time debating your delusional nonsense.

That's not phrased in the spirit of this "friendly" thread? But let's just agree to disagree and leave it.

... but not sure how to stress the evil that god does without comimg off as confrontational, my wife tells me I need to work on that and I try. I don't always succeed but I try.

If you're an atheist of sort (agnostic atheist) then logically I'd expect you not to believe in a
tyrannical evil YHWH. If you were a Christian I don't see it plausible that you'd believe the account of the tyrannical evil YHWH either.
It just feels like you're investing a lot of emotional energy to battle against it. Why?

[supramax]

That's not phrased in the spirit of this "friendly" thread? But let's just agree to disagree and leave it...

The other guys are debating about a book. You're bull****ting about experiencing God and how I can too if I open my heart, etc., etc. You live in a very small world.

[Payton1221]

. . . Are you honestly telling me that a megalomaniac like Yahweh/Jesus would hesitate to unleash his power or let people know his diety? He murdered every inhabitant, spare a handful, of the Earth by flood. Destroyed a couple of cities by fire and told Pharaoh to let his people go, when he didn't Yahweh/Jesus unleashed the angel of death upon Egypt killing every first born male, including Pharaoh's son.

It is true that when God was building up the nation Israel that he treated sin like a cancer, and he CUT IT OUT (or he commanded that it be cut out . . . remember Samuel's rebuke to Saul "what is this bleating I hear?"). Like I wrote previously, we want to know and to understand everything--I get it and have a few questions myself--but because God chose to do things differently than me, that doesn't mean that we weren't created nor that this Creator hasn't prepared a place for us in heaven nor a way for us to spend eternity in that place.

You didn't come off unfriendly or confrontational. Have a good weekend and I'm outta here ;-)

[OldFartTom]

The other guys are debating about a book. You're bull****ting about experiencing God and how I can too if I open my heart, etc., etc. You live in a very small world.

Look at the very start of this thread, posts #1 and #2

[supramax]

Look at the very start of this thread, posts #1 and #2

I've already pointed out what that experience actually is. Compounded with drugs, it must have been great.

Do you really need backup?

[2nd_chance]

I've already pointed out what that experience actually is. Compounded with drugs, it must have been great.

Do you really need backup?

Hey bro. If you’re only here to antagonize why don’t you do it in another thread? Otherwise let’s speak respectfully to one another.

[NorwichGrad]

I'm a Christian. I consider myself spiritual. But I dislike religions.

Because religions are exactly like gubmints.

Both have sent many innocent lives to Snap City.

The beauty of being Spiritual is that it's not just a 'Christian thing'. Anybody can be spiritual, including our atheist friends.

At any rate, just something to consider: Proof versus evidence.

Non-believers always ask for 'proof'. And I get that. I don't have 'proof' but when I look around this beautiful world (except commies, I hate commies, they ain't beautiful) I see many EVIDENCE.

I have been working as an engineer for many years. I have designed and developed many things I'm proud of. The $hit I produce is EVIDENCE. And when I look around the UNIVERSE from both a MACROSCOPIC and MICROSOPIC set of lenses, I am always humbled by the EVIDENCE. Who designed me to have the ability to design stuff?

Carry on.

Love one another as you love yourself. But when a commie tries to hurt you, shoot him.

[supramax]

Hey bro. If you’re only here to antagonize why don’t you do it in another thread? Otherwise let’s speak respectfully to one another.

Tom is proselytizing and I'm pointing out the reality of what experiencing God actually is. I can't fault you for not liking it, but if you guys want to talk about your beliefs and experiences, then I'll point out the psychology of it.

P.S. ... but if someone tries to play the oneupmanship card and bull**** me, I'll call them on it, whether you like it or not.

[thedickus]

One of the next books I'm going to read is: The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt
My wife read it and she loved it. Her degree is in psychology, so she's much more of a why people behave the way the do than I am. I'm in I.T. and I'm very binary/black and white. I try to live in the grey but it's not easy for me, but I do want to understand why people feel like they need a god in their lives. Reading some of the posters' testimonials on here pretty much confirms everything that I grew up hearing when I was forced as a child to go to a southern baptist church. I knew immediately that all of the stories were just BS and that the "god experience" that people talked about was basically some form of mass hysteria. I left home at 19 and have spent the last 36 years heavily studying the fallacies and contradictions in the bible, where the stories originated from. In fact if I ever went back to school I'd like to get a degree in new testament studies. It really all just fascinates me. Now I'm more interested in why people feel they need it. Any of the arguments I've seen presented here are anything different than I've heard all of life, just like I'm sure that my arguments are nothing new to many of you.
I've never felt that I needed god or that my life was lacking anything. My small family is very divided on religion. My parents and brother are evangelical. I'm as far from that as you can get. From what I can tell that without religion in my family I think that my mom would still be the same sweet woman she is, my day would be the same ******* he is, just probably cuss, and my brother would be dead from drugs/excess. They've given up preaching to me and probably consider me a lost soul at this point, my dad even calling me a godless son once, about the same time he told me not to succumb to the ache in my lower abdomen (yeah, people really talk like that).
I'm sure that my views on why religion, and especially christianity (more my specialty) are complete B.S. won't change any on the believers' view in this thread, just like your views won't change mine. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss it civilly. I still enjoy the topic, but the debating gets old.

Edit: I didn't realize that we couldn't cuss on here. I called my dad an a$$hole and it got changed to ********* . That's pretty impressive of me to post this much in a atheist/christian thread and not cussing once. My parents and wife would be proud of me LOL.

[2nd_chance]

Tom is proselytizing and I'm pointing out the reality of what experiencing God actually is. I can't fault you for not liking it, but if you guys want to talk about your beliefs and experiences, then I'll point out the psychology of it.

P.S. ... but if someone tries to play the oneupmanship card and bull**** me, I'll call them on it, whether you like it or not.

The point of the thread is to understand one another not to point out the other side's BS because we don't agree. Feel free to try to convert me to atheism all you want.

[2nd_chance]

One of the next books I'm going to read is: The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt
My wife read it and she loved it. Her degree is in psychology, so she's much more of a why people behave the way the do than I am. I'm in I.T. and I'm very binary/black and white. I try to live in the grey but it's not easy for me, but I do want to understand why people feel like they need a god in their lives. Reading some of the posters' testimonials on here pretty much confirms everything that I grew up hearing when I was forced as a child to go to a southern baptist church. I knew immediately that all of the stories were just BS and that the "god experience" that people talked about was basically some form of mass hysteria. I left home at 19 and have spent the last 36 years heavily studying the fallacies and contradictions in the bible, where the stories originated from. In fact if I ever went back to school I'd like to get a degree in new testament studies. It really all just fascinates me. Now I'm more interested in why people feel they need it. Any of the arguments I've seen presented here are anything different than I've heard all of life, just like I'm sure that my arguments are nothing new to many of you.
I've never felt that I needed god or that my life was lacking anything. My small family is very divided on religion. My parents and brother are evangelical. I'm as far from that as you can get. From what I can tell that without religion in my family I think that my mom would still be the same sweet woman she is, my day would be the same ******* he is, just probably cuss, and my brother would be dead from drugs/excess. They've given up preaching to me and probably consider me a lost soul at this point, my dad even calling me a godless son once, about the same time he told me not to succumb to the ache in my lower abdomen (yeah, people really talk like that).
I'm sure that my views on why religion, and especially christianity (more my specialty) are complete B.S. won't change any on the believers' view in this thread, just like your views won't change mine. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss it civilly. I still enjoy the topic, but the debating gets old.

Edit: I didn't realize that we couldn't cuss on here. I called my dad an a$$hole and it got changed to ********* . That's pretty impressive of me to post this much in a atheist/christian thread and not cussing once. My parents and wife would be proud of me LOL.

Thanks for sharing your story bro. What can't you just accept that some people have a different life experience? Just because it's not for you doesn't make it total BS. For those of us who have had the experience, it's real. The mass hysteria claim doesn't hold up for me. When I was converted I didn't even know another Christian and had never read the Bible or gone to a church. It happened. It was real and it changed my life. Maybe some day it will happen to you and maybe it won't. But I'm not going to push my life on you and I'm not going to call your viewpoint BS. So again, thanks for letting us know where you're coming from.

[supramax]

The point of the thread is to understand one another not to point out the other side's BS because we don't agree. Feel free to try to convert me to atheism all you want.

I'm not interested in influencing anyone. The point about BS was specifically to do with the 'I thought lke you, until I saw the light' crap and then the 'open your heart' stuff that followed.

You say the point of the thread is to understand one another, but none of the God experiencers seem to understand that the experiencer is conditioned and what's pointed to by the word 'God' is beyond the realm of conditioning and therefore cannot be an experience of the experiencer. When God is, you are not. Period!

[OldFartTom]

... if someone tries to play the oneupmanship card and bull**** me, I'll call them on it, whether you like it or not.

The comments about posts 1# and 2# wasn't to call for backup, it's just that I thought I was on topic, no more than that.

Apologies though... I was totally unaware that I was coming across that way. Sure I can be a bit of an obnoxious d*ck at times, but one-upmanship was totally unintentional/accidental and I was actually trying to not be like that. I'll have to phrase myself more carefully.

[OldFartTom]

.. but none of the God experiencers seem to understand that the experiencer is conditioned and what's pointed to by the word 'God' is beyond the realm of conditioning and therefore cannot be an experience of the experiencer. When God is, you are not. Period!

Actually I do. If you want to take that non religiously then it's been a problem of philosophy for a long time. Immanuel Kant really looked at this for example, but the more mundane problem of "always". You can't experience always so how can things like "the shortest distance between 2 points is always a straight line" ignore if that example is accurate or not for a moment, we're looking at the ability to think that, not the actual statement. Something that is impossible to experience yet the mind makes the jump from "a lot" or "always so far" to "always". Also the flip side of this is also the same as the foundation of math (according to Kant etc anyway). There's a whole area of actually useful philosophy around how people can acquire concepts outside of all possible experience and how that is fundamental to thinking. It's off topic here, but dip into it...

[whatevergirl]

Hey David, nice thread topic. I don't post much on bb.com anymore but still...how did I miss this thread?

I read the NT last year, and now I'm on the OT. It's a much tougher(?) read (for want of a better word), but I have a Bible that offers ''footnotes'' to help decipher the hidden meanings. The languages of the OT and NT don't translate well to modern times, so I think that it's important to underscore when understanding what the teachings were and how we can pick them up now.

[supramax]

The comments about posts 1# and 2# wasn't to call for backup, it's just that I thought I was on topic, no more than that.

Apologies though... I was totally unaware that I was coming across that way. Sure I can be a bit of an obnoxious d*ck at times, but one-upmanship was totally unintentional/accidental and I was actually trying to not be like that. I'll have to phrase myself more carefully.

People that think they have God in their pocket can't help themselves. I just read 2nd pulling the same thing with dick: "It happened. It was real and it changed my life. Maybe some day it will happen to you and maybe it won't." as if it was truth rather than psychological.

There's no need to apologize, though. "In opposition lies true friendship."

[supramax]

... It's off topic here, but dip into it...

Yeah, no thanks.

[Cantplankwell]

As far as the first question goes, let's say you only have one son but many grandkids. For whatever reason, you've elected to split your inheritance up so that all of the grandkids will share in the inheritance with one stipulation: they must have a loving relationship with your son. If one of your grandkids was a fine, upstanding member of the community but purposefully chose to not have a relationship with your son (no talking, no visits, NOTHING), isn't it within your right to withhold his or her share of the inheritance just as you stipulated?

Regarding the second question, there's a passage in Romans 2 (verse 15) that says "They (those who were never given an opportunity to know and accept Christ) show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them." An omniscient God will know how to address this.

The problem with much of our discussions is that the bible says we are the creatures and we have finite minds. The God of the bible is the Creator with an infinite mind. It comes down to faith. Either you accept the bible by faith or you don't. But I would argue any other belief system including the belief that we're here by accident and that somehow the earth went from no life to simple life (biologists now know that there's no such thing as "simple" but ...) to intelligent life. If you don't believe in any creator of any kind, then you must take it on faith that a progression from nothing to one in which you and I have the ability to discuss this on an internet message board occurred randomly. If we had witnessed real, significant macroevolution since Darwin postulated his theory those many years ago, Christianity would be dead IMO. And as I posted earlier, where is the evolution in light of the major ecological changes that have occurred since the industrial revolution. Why are so many animals extinct? Why aren't they evolving in a macro way?

What too many people do is that instead of believing that they were created in God's image they create a god in their image (God would or God wouldn't FILL-IN-THE-BLANK). This is a stumbling block to many.




It's because of the Great Commission, as I wrote.


Uh, yeah. Me too. I had an assistant at work who was in her 60's and was a lifelong Catholic. She couldn't even recite John 3:16


I want to thank everyone who has participated in such a friendly manner. I know that Christians are commanded to "make disciples," but my experience has been that the vast majority of people who are in their 30's or older (and many younger) are closed to the idea and the exchanges typically devolve quickly into something terrible. This thread has, for the most part, not followed that pattern.

Thanks Payton, interesting,

On Spread.

[thomashenry]

Don't be too hard on her, Jesus would've missed this one too. Considering his first recorded saying was in Mark: "This is the time of fulfillment. The kingdom of God is at hand. So repent, and believe in the gospel."
You'd think that if Jesus truly thought that he was the son of god and that whoever believed in him would have everlasting life, he'd of led with that.

Ok I`ll Play......................" You'd think that if Jesus truly thought that he was the son of god" your Words,............ with your simple assumption, you believe he didn`t think he was the Son of God, in actuality the evidence is contrary to your Statement, you sound as if he should have just said, Hey hi folks I`m Yahweh, but that doesn`t take into consideration the Jews of his day, they didn`t have any concept of the Holy Trinity, they only knew God the Father, and not God the Son and Holy Spirit, so in that day, for him to say he was God, would not have made any sense to them and would have been considered blasphemy, it would have been counter productive to Jesus in his efforts to get people to listen to him.

Look at his relationships with the religious leaders, they are revealing, as to who Jesus was and knew who he was, he made a truly radical statement, that it`s not what enters a person that defiles them, but what comes out of his heart, That statement in and of itself sets aside huge portions of the Old testament book of Leviticus, with it`s meticulous rules concerning purity. The Pharisee`s didn`t like his message, they wanted to maintain the Status Quo, but Jesus was in their way, he was a doing a new thing and he was a threat, because he was setting aside divinely inspired Jewish Scriptures and supplant them with his own Teachings.

What about his Relationship with the Roman Authorities ? if he had been an innocuous sage telling little parables, then why have him crucified ? especially during the Passover season, there must have been a Reason for the Sign over his head "King of the Jew`s", either Jesus had made that verbal claim, or someone clearly thought he did .

What about his Miracles? "If I, by the Finger of God, I cast out demons, then you will know the kingdom of God has come upon you, his miracles, he see`s as bringing about something unprecedented, the coming of God`s dominion, he see`s himself as the one in whom and through whom the promises of God come to pass. Jesus taught in a radical new way, he began his teachings with the phrase "Amen I say to you", It means I swear in advance to the truthfulness of what I`m about to say, that was revolutionary during that time, In Judaism you needed the testimony of two witnesses, so one could witness the truth of the other & vice versa, Jesus, instead of basing his teachings on the Authority of others, he speaks of his own authority, he was someone who considered himself to have authority above and beyond what the Old Testament prophets had. He believed and taught that he possessed divine inspiration and had divine authority.

What about when he used the word ABBA when relating to God, that word connotes an intimacy in a relationship between child and his father, in the context as Jesus operated, it was customary for Jews to work around, avoid, having to say the name of God, his name was the most Holy word you could speak and they feared mispronouncing it, ABBA is personal, Jesus using it was the initiator of an intimate relationship that was previously unavailable. It implies Jesus had an intimacy with God that was unlike Judaism had ever seen, heard or witnessed, and Jesus Preached, taught, that only through a relationship with HIM, does this type of prayer language, does a relationship become possible with God.

Jesus referring to himself as the Son of Man, this term, is extremely important in revealing Jesus` messianic self understanding, he wasn`t just someone who did good deeds, nor did he think of himself that way, he thought of himself as unique and supreme, Look up John 1:1-3 & 14, no where in the Bible, does it portray Jesus as uncertain about his identity and mission, no ambiguity and angst, Identity confirmation, yes, at his Baptism, his temptation, at the transfiguration , in the Garden of Gethsemane, those are specific area`s in which God confirmed to him who he was and what his mission was.

Jesus, himself alone, thought and acted as he was the person appointed by God to bring in the climatic saving act of God in Human history, he believed he was the agent of God to carry that out, that he and he alone had the authority, from God, empowered and spoke for God, he did the Work of God as the final Messiah, Mark 10:45

Jesus said "I and the Father are one", he and he lone has the Authority to speak for the Father, to act for the Father, "If you reject me, you`ve rejected the Father", "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father", Jesus believed and taught that People`s eternal destiny hinged on whether or not they believed in him, " if you confess with your Mouth"

an interesting question to ask yourselves, why is there no other 1st Century Jew who has millions, Billions of Followers today ? why isn`t there a John the Baptist movement ? Why, of all the 1st century figures including the Roman Emperors, is Jesus still worshipped today, while others have vanished into history ? It`s because this Jesus, the Historical Jesus, is also the Living God, and that salvation can be found in no other, that`s why he is till around and all others have faded.

There is ample evidence of who Jesus was and claimed to be, some may not want to hear it, see it or believe it, that is their choice

[lasher]

... implies continuity, which is the reason why the Catholic church redefined 'Hell' as non existance.

The catholic church did no such thing.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P2O.HTM

IV. Hell

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616

[supramax]

The catholic church did no such thing.

Did they change it, again?
I remember thinking when I first read it: "Well, we're all going to hell!"
It's all such silliness, anyways.

[lasher]

Did they change it, again?

When was it changed to begin with?

[supramax]

When was it changed to begin with?

I don't remember. I read it in the 'Religion' section of either the Montreal Star or the Montreal Gazette. The Star doesn't exist anymore. The Gazette has an archive, but you have to be a paid subscriber to see anything more than blurry blurbs.

[ArchAngel'73]

I don't remember. I read it in the 'Religion' section of either the Montreal Star or the Montreal Gazette. The Star doesn't exist anymore. The Gazette has an archive, but you have to be a paid subscriber to see anything more than blurry blurbs.

Nous devons mieux nous entendre en tant que Canadiens malgré nos différences.Juste au cas où les Américains commenceraient à causer des ennuis à nouveau.C’est une bonne chose la plupart d’entre eux sont muets et ne seront pas en mesure de lire cela!

Je suis en Alberta, tu regardes l’Est et j’ai l’Ouest.

and no, I don't speak French, but the interwebz does.

[supramax]

Nous devons mieux nous entendre en tant que Canadiens malgré nos différences.

I didn't know we didn't.

Juste au cas où les Américains commenceraient à causer des ennuis à nouveau.

We need to build a wall.

C’est une bonne chose la plupart d’entre eux sont muets et ne seront pas en mesure de lire cela!

True dat.

e suis en Alberta, tu regardes l’Est et j’ai l’Ouest.

I've done everything East many times over, but when I saw the sparrow sized mosquitos in Winnepeg, I came back East.

and no, I don't speak French, but the interwebz does.

Gotta love Google.

[ArchAngel'73]

I didn't know we didn't.

We're good.

We need to build a wall.

We did in "Southpark" and its working like a charm.

True dat.

I got ur hairy back if you have mine.

I've done everything East many times over, but when I saw the sparrow sized mosquitos in Winnepeg, I came back East.

I was born there. Winnipeg is a sh*t hole, too cold, too hot, too humid, too dirty, too old and the got damn Stuka dive bombers they call mosquitoes. I don't blame you.

Gotta love Google.

as long as we got nothing to hide we might be safe.

[thedickus]

Ok I`ll Play......................" You'd think that if Jesus truly thought that he was the son of god" your Words,............ with your simple assumption, you believe he didn`t think he was the Son of God, in actuality the evidence is contrary to your Statement

This is what I'm saying, aside from John which was written long after Jesus died and its message is not at all similar with the message in the preceding three synaptic gospels, and from the writings of Paul, who preached a decidedly different message than Jesus preached, there is no evidence. Jesus thought that when god made his kingdom here on Earth for his believers that god would appoint Jesus as king (messiah) of Israel.

Look at his relationships with the religious leaders, they are revealing, as to who Jesus was and knew who he was, he made a truly radical statement, that it`s not what enters a person that defiles them, but what comes out of his heart, That statement in and of itself sets aside huge portions of the Old testament book of Leviticus, with it`s meticulous rules concerning purity. The Pharisee`s didn`t like his message, they wanted to maintain the Status Quo, but Jesus was in their way, he was a doing a new thing and he was a threat, because he was setting aside divinely inspired Jewish Scriptures and supplant them with his own Teachings.

He preached that you must keep the commandments better than the pharisees. He preached nothing about salvation, only about repentance. He preached that Yahweh was going to make a kindom here on Earth and that it would be a paradise for people that have repented, and that all non believers would be destroyed, not be tormented in hell. He preached nothing about people going to heaven to live with Yahweh.

What about his Relationship with the Roman Authorities ? if he had been an innocuous sage telling little parables, then why have him crucified ? especially during the Passover season, there must have been a Reason for the Sign over his head "King of the Jew`s", either Jesus had made that verbal claim, or someone clearly thought he did .

The Roman authorities didn't give care about Jesus. They were polytheists, to them Yahwew was just another god. Pilate cared about keeping order and peace.

What about his Miracles?

Seriously? LOL, I hate to break it to you, but there were no miracles, it's really as simple as that.

an interesting question to ask yourselves, why is there no other 1st Century Jew who has millions, Billions of Followers today ?

Bart Ehrman wrote an interesting book on this subject, The Triumph of Christianity: How a Forbidden Religion Swept the World. He answers that question rather nicely.

[supramax]

We're good.

Eternally.

We did in "Southpark" and its working like a charm.

Never seen it.

I got ur hairy back if you have mine.

I'm not a hairy human, but I gotcha!

I was born there. Winnipeg is a sh*t hole, too cold, too hot, too humid, too dirty, too old and the got damn Stuka dive bombers they call mosquitoes. I don't blame you.

I liked the Fort Garry and I met a really beautiful lady there.

as long as we got nothing to hide we might be safe.

Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies.

[LWW]

I'm a Christian. I consider myself spiritual. But I dislike religions.

Because religions are exactly like gubmints.

Both have sent many innocent lives to Snap City.

The beauty of being Spiritual is that it's not just a 'Christian thing'. Anybody can be spiritual, including our atheist friends.

At any rate, just something to consider: Proof versus evidence.

Non-believers always ask for 'proof'. And I get that. I don't have 'proof' but when I look around this beautiful world (except commies, I hate commies, they ain't beautiful) I see many EVIDENCE.

I have been working as an engineer for many years. I have designed and developed many things I'm proud of. The $hit I produce is EVIDENCE. And when I look around the UNIVERSE from both a MACROSCOPIC and MICROSOPIC set of lenses, I am always humbled by the EVIDENCE. Who designed me to have the ability to design stuff?

Carry on.

Love one another as you love yourself. But when a commie tries to hurt you, shoot him.

Excellent post NG. Commies are the result of free will. Even P.P. saw evidence so he let the people crucify Jesus, even with evidence people will choose man which is not perfect because of freewill, however the rest of creation is perfect.

[2nd_chance]

He preached nothing about salvation

You really should go take those classes on the New Testament. It would help your debating.

Matthew 10:22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Luke 8:12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Luke 19:9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; 10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

John 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.