***The Official Atheist and Christian Friendly Discussion***

[Phattso]

so everyone who died before the story of Jesus, or who never heard of Jesus went to hell?
newsflash, you are in a cult. In one of the top five cults.

First time I have ever heard someone say that Christianity is a cult. Chickeneater, do you have the ability to debate without stating your mere opinions as fact? All of your responses are negatively emotional and appears that you are attempting to gain an edge by who-can-write-the-loudest.

[Frnkd]

I think knowing what you know that creates your spirituality is not that you know it but how you use it to respond to your emotions, and those things around you. Sharing your spiritual perspective through your thought, words and actions is what is important. It validates your belief more so than the knowledge that you have.

Isn't that what the religious founders want?

The limitations that each person places on oneself, for whatever reason, past experience, knowledge, fear, etc, is a delusion. A belief that allows you to break through those delusions rather than accept it as fact is what people are in search of, that's my belief.

I think a discussion on what your perspective on life actions that you make is a good route to start having. This may be to philosophical but I believe in cause and effect, and with that sees my life as always a fork in the road. The choices that I make will create a new "cause" for me. I choose therefore to accept the effect of my choice, and not to create an excuse. This is a simplistic way of putting it, but in essence that's how I live my life based on the belief that I have.

In my belief everyone have this potential to choose, if it makes you happy, just be able to also accept the effects.

[chickeneater]

This doesn't make any sense to me. What were the details of the challenge?

you're quoting "NorwichGrad" from post #94, and yet in post #99 (which is this one) the quote has my name in it. Wtf?

[chickeneater]

First time I have ever heard someone say that Christianity is a cult.

Interesting, because my mother used to throw the "cult" word around and scowl when she would say it. I knew to avoid the word then, and was brainwashed to think that anything other than Christianity is a cult. When I got older, I learned that this is a common tactic that organized religions use against each other, and to keep members in line via fearmongering. In their defense, most don't know they are doing that.

Chickeneater, do you have the ability to debate without stating your mere opinions as fact? All of your responses are negatively emotional and appears that you are attempting to gain an edge by who-can-write-the-loudest.

I have to assume you are a Christian? Because only someone who would get heated by my responses would overlook anything positive I said. I think it's fair to say I was negative in posts #54,#71 and #61. But I did say I "respectfully" bow out in #68, and winked with a smiley face in #73 to the OP, after he invited me not to bow out. But I knew I got heated, I gave reasons why I get heated (childhood) and then I repped the OP, and said in the rep that I hope he was'nt mad at me, and he looks great (Bodybuilding wise) but you did'nt know that part, so I can't blame you for that.

Write the loudest? Anyways, I Don't know what more I Can do than to "respectfully" bow out since I recognized I got heated. But to your point that I state my opinions as fact, ok, true, but the op keeps saying that his beliefs are facts, so why don't you lecture him?

[chickeneater]

second-chance,

What about the notion that the story of Jesus was merely a copy of the story of ancient Gods well before him. Here is an excerpt from a google search I did while typing in "story of Jesus copied from": (it's the egyption God Horus, but the God mirthos had the same identical story in b.c. suggesting that the story of Jesus is merely the same recycled story from the Gods of other cultures)

Conceived by a virgin
Only begotten son of the God Osiris
Mother's name was Meri
Foster father's name was Seb
Foster father was of royal descent
Born in a cave
Annunciation by an angel to his mother, Isis
Birth
Heralded by the star Sirius, the morning star.
Date - 21 December (Winter Solstice)
Announced by angels
Witnessed by shepherds
Later witnessed by three solar deities
Herut tried to have Horus murdered
Age
Rite of passage at age 12
Baptised at age 30
Break in data on life history between age 12 and 30
Baptised by Anup the Baptiser (in the river Eridanus), who was subsequently beheaded
Death by crucifixion, followed by resurrection.

It is religious plagiarism.


(the last line is from the excerpt, not mine, so phattso understands)


So, OP, according to this notion if you were born b.c. you would've turned your life over to Mithros, or perhaps Horus.

Hope I'm being friendly.

[chickeneater]

First time I have ever heard someone say that Christianity is a cult.

Based on the defitnition of "Cult" Christianity is one whether you've ever heard someone say it or not. And that is a fact that no-one can deny. If you're offended by that, then you were brainwashed like I was at one time to think the word "cult" is a bad one. It's not.


cult   /kʌlt/ Show Spelled[kuhlt] Show IPA
noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

[JolietKev]

second-chance,

What about the notion that the story of Jesus was merely a copy of the story of ancient Gods well before him. Here is an excerpt from a google search I did while typing in "story of Jesus copied from": (it's the egyption God Horus, but the God mirthos had the same identical story in b.c. suggesting that the story of Jesus is merely the same recycled story from the Gods of other cultures)

Conceived by a virgin
Only begotten son of the God Osiris
Mother's name was Meri
Foster father's name was Seb
Foster father was of royal descent
Born in a cave
Annunciation by an angel to his mother, Isis
Birth
Heralded by the star Sirius, the morning star.
Date - 21 December (Winter Solstice)
Announced by angels
Witnessed by shepherds
Later witnessed by three solar deities
Herut tried to have Horus murdered
Age
Rite of passage at age 12
Baptised at age 30
Break in data on life history between age 12 and 30
Baptised by Anup the Baptiser (in the river Eridanus), who was subsequently beheaded
Death by crucifixion, followed by resurrection.

It is religious plagiarism.


(the last line is from the excerpt, not mine, so phattso understands)


So, OP, according to this notion if you were born b.c. you would've turned your life over to Mithros, or perhaps Horus.

Hope I'm being friendly.

The Truth About Horus
The mythical Egyptian God, Horus, was worshipped principally in two cult centers at Bekhdet in the North and Idfu in the south. Little remains at the northern location, but there is still a large and well preserved Ptolemaic temple at Idfu. So, most information about Horus comes from this southern temple. Horus was usually represented as a falcon, as he was a great sky God and the Son of Isis and Osiris. Let’s take a look at the claims we have already described and separate truth from fiction, and then try to understand the underlying hope of the people who invented the god called Horus:



Claim: Horus was conceived by a virgin mother named Meri, and had a stepfather named Seb (Joseph)

Truth: Horus was NOT conceived of a virgin. In fact both mural and textual evidence from Egypt indicate that Isis (there is no evidence that “Meri” was ever part of her name) hovered over the erect penis (that she created) of Osiris and conceived Horus. While she may have been a virgin before the conception, she utilizes Osiris’ penis to conceive. She later had another son with Osiris as well. There is no evidence of three wise men as part of the story at all (in neither Horus’ nor Jesus’ birth story for that matter!). Seb was actually the ‘earth god’, (earth itself, just as Nut was the sky); He was not Horus’ earthly father. Seb is NOT the equivalent of Joseph and, in most cases, he is described as Osiris’ father!



The Reasoning Behind the Horus Mythology: Clearly men dream and think about God, and when we do that, it is reasonable for us to imagine that God be in some way different from the natural order that He has created. It’s reasonable to assume then, that He would appear in a supernatural way, defying the natural order of things.


Claim: Horus was born in a cave, his birth announced by an angel, heralded by a star and attended by shepherds
Truth: There is no reference to a cave or manger in the birth story at all. In fact none of these details are present in the ancient Egyptian stories of Horus. Horus was born in a swamp. His birth was not heralded by an angel. There was no star to announce his birth.

Claim: Horus attended a special rite of passage at the age of twelve and there is no data on the child from the age of 12 to 30
Truth: There is no continuous effort in the Horus mythology to account for all these years, so there are no real gaps in the chronology. Horus never taught in any temple at twelve (as did Jesus), and keep in mind that Jesus didn't 'disappear' in the years between His teaching in the temple and His baptism. He was simply working as a carpenter.

Claim: Horus was baptized in a river at the age of 30, and his baptizer was later beheaded.
Truth: Horus was never baptized. While the conspiracy theorists will often point to “Anup the Baptizer” and claim he was later beheaded, there is no such person in Horus’ story.

Claim: Horus had 12 disciples
Truth: Horus had only four disciples (called ‘Heru-Shemsu’), but at some point in his story there is reference to sixteen followers, and a group of unnumbered followers who join Horus in battle (called ‘mesnui’). But there’s no reference to twelve followers.



The Reasoning Behind the Horus Mythology: It is reasonable to imagine that God, if he was to come to earth, would then gather to himself disciples that would continue to share the truth with others.


Claim: Horus performed miracles, exorcized demons, raised someone from the dead, walked on water
Truth: Of course Horus performed miracles, after all he was supposed to be a god!! But there was no mention of exorcizing demons, raising people from the dead or walking on water.



The Reasoning Behind the Horus Mythology: It is reasonable to expect that if there is a God (a true God), He would have the power to perform the miraculous and control the forces of the natural environment.


Claim: Horus was called “Iusa”, the "ever-becoming son" and the "Holy Child"
Truth: No one in Egyptian history was ever called “Iusa” (the word does not exist) nor was anyone called “Holy Child”.

Claim: Horus delivered a "Sermon on the Mount", and his followers recounted his sayings. He was transfigured on the Mount
Truth: Horus never delivered a "Sermon on the Mount", nor was he transfigured.

Claim: Horus was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and was resurrected
Truth: Horus is not reported to have died at all in the vast majority of story versions. There is also no crucifixion story. Instead, Horus is usually described as eventually merging with Re (the Sun god) after which he 'dies' and is 'reborn' every single day as the sun rises. (This is a bit of a stretch at a death and resurrection parallel). Now there is an unofficial story that describes Horus as dying and being cast in pieces into the water, and later fished out by a crocodile at Isis’ request.



The Reasoning Behind the Horus Mythology: If there is a true God, we would expect him to have mastery over death and be able to control the powers of death and life.


Claim: Horus was called “Way”, “the Truth the Light”, “Messiah”, “God's Anointed Son”, “Son of Man”, “Good Shepherd”, “Lamb of God”, “Word made flesh”, “Word of Truth”, "the KRST" or "Anointed One”
Truth: None of these titles are in Egyptian history, but Horus IS called by several names you might expect for any god in mythology: “Great God”, “Chief of the Powers”, “Master of Heaven”, and “Avenger of His Father”. Horus was also not called “the Krst” because this word in Egyptian means "burial" (it wasn't a title at all).



The Reasoning Behind the Horus Mythology: If there is a God, we would expect Him to be powerful and possess a title that reflects that power.


Claim: Horus was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish, Lamb and Lion.
Truth: Some of the conspiracy theorists try to show an association with fish (by virtue of the fact that Horus WAS a fish, very unlike Jesus), but there is no evidence that Horus was ever called a “fisher” or was ever associated with the Lion or the Lamb.

Claim: Horus came to fulfill the Law, and was supposed to reign one thousand years
Truth: There was no Egyptian “law” for Horus to fulfill, and there is no mention of a thousand year reign in Egyptian mythology.

[JolietKev]

http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/inde...the_Horus_Myth

Christianity Continues to Thrive
While there are actually very FEW similarities between Horus and Jesus in detail, there are similarities between them in the underlying expectations early seekers had for God. Jesus simply meets the hopes and dreams of these seekers as the true incarnate God. While Horus worship is now a dead religion, Christianity continues to thrive. Why? Because the Horus tradition is inconsistent with the geological history of our world, inconsistent with the archeological history of humanity, and unsupported by textual evidence. In contrast, Christianity still continues to speak to the minds of seekers today. It has strong geological and archeological consistency with what we see in our world and strong textual evidence to support the earliest of claims. Atheists have tried to portray Horus as something he isn’t in order to make us believe that Jesus never existed at all. But the story of Horus should only encourage us to believe in the God who exceeds our expectations!

[JolietKev]

"I know men and I tell you that Jesus Christ is no mere man. Between Him and every other person in the world there is no possible term of comparison. Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and I have founded empires. But on what did we rest the creation of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ founded His empire upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him."

--Napoleon

Even to this day, thousands die every year for Him. Missionaries go into Mulsim countries and are still being killed. Muslims who seek and find the truth are killed because of it, yet they do not deny their belief.

[Vytis]

In the end all you are left with is belief, since the stories written in the Bible or any other religious text is just that, a narrative. Nothing there will prove that Jesus was the Son of God...we can't definitively say that he was even a historical figure at all....

But that's the nature of faith....just to believe. As many others have said, I guess I haven't been blessed with the presence of faith...

[2nd_chance]

In the end all you are left with is belief, since the stories written in the Bible or any other religious text is just that, a narrative. Nothing there will prove that Jesus was the Son of God...we can't definitively say that he was even a historical figure at all....
but that's the nature of faith....just to believe. As many others have said, I guess I haven't been blessed with the presence of faith...

There are mounds of proof that Jesus was a historical figure. But I suppose if we are going off of physical or DNA evidence, we also cannot say for certain that George Washington was the first president of the United States.

[2nd_chance]

I've had this conversation with my wife before. I could be way off on this, but it seems to me that the whole "well . . . how do you know that OUR 7 days is the same as God's 7 days" approach is more of a modern explanation now that it seems clear that the earth is extremely old. It's kind of a fact that can't be ignored, so religious folk and the church seize upon vaguaries (sp??) to explain the contradiction away. Seems to me that the intention when the bible was written or when the stories were being told verbally was probably to try to explain the power of God quite literally in terms that people would clearly understand---people know what a week is and this being is so powerful that he created the entire universe and everything in it in a week . . . and in fact he's so powerful that it didn't even take him the whole week (he took one day off).

People back then had no idea that the earth could be as old as it is. So the story was conceived based on what they knew at the time and explained how things got to where they were. When did the church start explaining this as a week not being an actual "human" week? I would guess up until fairly recently (in historical passage of time anyway) that this was explained quite literally as a week is a regular week and that's just how powerful God is--so you better do what he says. At some point people discover that the earth is pretty darn old, which would seem to contradict the teachings, so it needs to be nuanced to still fit. Problem solved--this particular part of the bible should be taken figuratively.

Not trying to poke people with sticks here . . . this is just one of the many things I have issues with or questions about. I'm not trying to say you are wrong if you happen to believe it--but I think you can appreciate that to someone outside that circle of belief that it sounds problematic/suspicious/convenient.

OK....... Genesis 1:1 (first verse in the Bible)

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (2) The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep.

The Bible does not say that the earth is 6,000 years old. It says that in the beginning God created it, along with the heavens. It was without form and void, for possible millions or billions of years.

I do believe that God created Adam 6,000 years ago and I also believe that the subsequent acts of creation on an already existent earth occurred in a literal 6 days (including the creation of Adam).

IMO, it takes a much bigger leap of faith to believe that we evolved from apes.

[acrawlingchaos]

Why wouldn't you want your life to have meaning?

I think some are under the impression that there are only two choices.

1. There is a higher being of some sort, and that meaning is only found through some sort of unification with this higher being.

or

2. Complete existentialism, where life is completely meaningless.

There are so many shades in between.

My wife once went to a Budist retreat w/ a couple of catholic nuns. Budism is a philosphy and wasn't a religion until man made it one and rigidly adhering to an arbitrary religion needlessly closes so much of the world to you.

Buddhism was a schism of Hinduism, which is a very polytheistic and ancient religion. Buddhism was FIRST a religion, and later offshoots became non-theistic.

[2nd_chance]

second-chance,

What about the notion that the story of Jesus was merely a copy of the story of ancient Gods well before him. Here is an excerpt from a google search I did while typing in "story of Jesus copied from": (it's the egyption God Horus, but the God mirthos had the same identical story in b.c. suggesting that the story of Jesus is merely the same recycled story from the Gods of other cultures)

Conceived by a virgin
Only begotten son of the God Osiris
Mother's name was Meri
Foster father's name was Seb
Foster father was of royal descent
Born in a cave
Annunciation by an angel to his mother, Isis
Birth
Heralded by the star Sirius, the morning star.
Date - 21 December (Winter Solstice)
Announced by angels
Witnessed by shepherds
Later witnessed by three solar deities
Herut tried to have Horus murdered
Age
Rite of passage at age 12
Baptised at age 30
Break in data on life history between age 12 and 30
Baptised by Anup the Baptiser (in the river Eridanus), who was subsequently beheaded
Death by crucifixion, followed by resurrection.

It is religious plagiarism.


(the last line is from the excerpt, not mine, so phattso understands)


So, OP, according to this notion if you were born b.c. you would've turned your life over to Mithros, or perhaps Horus.

Hope I'm being friendly.

Google? Lol... Google?

You are being friendly, I just figure out where you are coming from...

[JolietKev]

In the end all you are left with is belief, since the stories written in the Bible or any other religious text is just that, a narrative. Nothing there will prove that Jesus was the Son of God...we can't definitively say that he was even a historical figure at all....

But that's the nature of faith....just to believe. As many others have said, I guess I haven't been blessed with the presence of faith...

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm
There is historical data supporting Christ as a historical figure. Both Pagan and Christian documents. Bottom line is that people are going to be open or not. People accept the fact that Aristotle and Socrates existed, yet for some reason people have difficulty believing in the early Christian manuscripts and writing of those who were not followers of the Way. You are correct when you say that it is really all about faith and belief. It is a turning over of one's life and believing, that in doing so, streams of living water will flow.

[2nd_chance]

I think some are under the impression that there are only two choices.

1. There is a higher being of some sort, and that meaning is only found through some sort of unification with this higher being.

or

2. Complete existentialism, where life is completely meaningless.

There are so many shades in between.

I agree that there are many shades in between. Some live their whole lives and never feel a void though God is absent from their consciousness. As a believer, I stand on the Word though: it is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment (Hebrews 9:27).

[Medtreker]

I have a little story.

When I first entered AA about 4 years ago, I had not thought too much up to that time of my Atheist conviction. Born and raised Catholic, 12 years Catholic school, brother an ordained Jesuit, I did know at some point that I didn't necessarily believe in a god. However, "being out there" I would philosophize under the influence and never really come to a need of commitment one way or the other. Upon entering AA, I was asked to commit!

It was about that time, my first year of sobriety, I stated researching all things atheism, and eventually where did "faith" in god's originate from in the human species.... and Why? Also at that time, my teenage daughter became caught up in PETA online. they really seem to cater toward young females on their site, I found as I examined what she was into. She, at that time, stopped eating "anything with a face."

Somewhere I found videos of animal mistreatment. Turkey farms, slaughter houses, not pretty stuff. I understood where I was in all of it, and I do really enjoy being a meat eater... But, there was one video. One video that really changed my life. It cemented what I was in terms of "faith." After it, all was Crystal Clear.... The infinite void, the fact the nothing can not exist...even Empty vacuum of Space of SOMETHING... I came to understand all, and truly understand that a god is unnecessary more so than non-existent.

The video was simple, a monkey strapped to a table face up and limbs spread. A scientist looking guy in a white lab coat is inserting a tube down it's throat via it's nostril. The monkey, wide awake, is so terrified.. such a "mortal" look of terror on it's pathetic face, it's whole body shivering and writhing as the tube is forced into it. It was a lab animal of course, the video somehow taken and snuck out to the public.

Then. Right then. I suddenly realized, an Epiphany... It's all alone. the animal is all alone in this world and NO ONE will ever save it. That particular pathetic creature being tortured will never be save...WAS never saved. And others like it, and....Humans...Humans to, so many will never be saved, for no reasons, there ARE no Reasons. Meaning is in our Minds. Good. Evil, all of it's just in OUR minds...none of it exists beyond our braincases.

After that, I would look at the night sky, and for the first time really understand death. Tremendously sad at first, then you realize you're alive, and what a "miracle" that is. The time it took for you to even think that thought, astronomical time...

I found a great book. All Born Again's need to read. Godless by Dan Barker. Loved that book.

We'll, MY Born Again AA sponsor dropped me like a hot potato just before my first anniversary. Soon after, I found SMART recovery, did both for my second year of sobriety, then on my 2nd anniversary, I quit AA and joined on with SMART entirely. I facilitate a meeting myself now once a week.

That's my little story.

[JolietKev]

I have a little story.

When I first entered AA about 4 years ago, I had not thought too much up to that time of my Atheist conviction. Born and raised Catholic, 12 years Catholic school, brother an ordained Jesuit, I did know at some point that I didn't necessarily believe in a god. However, "being out there" I would philosophize under the influence and never really come to a need of commitment one way or the other. Upon entering AA, I was asked to commit!

It was about that time, my first year of sobriety, I stated researching all things atheism, and eventually where did "faith" in god's originate from in the human species.... and Why? Also at that time, my teenage daughter became caught up in PETA online. they really seem to cater toward young females on their site, I found as I examined what she was into. She, at that time, stopped eating "anything with a face."

Somewhere I found videos of animal mistreatment. Turkey farms, slaughter houses, not pretty stuff. I understood where I was in all of it, and I do really enjoy being a meat eater... But, there was one video. One video that really changed my life. It cemented what I was in terms of "faith." After it, all was Crystal Clear.... The infinite void, the fact the nothing can not exist...even Empty vacuum of Space of SOMETHING... I came to understand all, and truly understand that a god is unnecessary more so than non-existent.

The video was simple, a monkey strapped to a table face up and limbs spread. A scientist looking guy in a white lab coat is inserting a tube down it's throat via it's nostril. The monkey, wide awake, is so terrified.. such a "mortal" look of terror on it's pathetic face, it's whole body shivering and writhing as the tube is forced into it. It was a lab animal of course, the video somehow taken and snuck out to the public.

Then. Right then. I suddenly realized, an Epiphany... It's all alone. the animal is all alone in this world and NO ONE will ever save it. That particular pathetic creature being tortured will never be save...WAS never saved. And others like it, and....Humans...Humans to, so many will never be saved, for no reasons, there ARE no Reasons. Meaning is in our Minds. Good. Evil, all of it's just in OUR minds...none of it exists beyond our braincases.

After that, I would look at the night sky, and for the first time really understand death. Tremendously sad at first, then you realize you're alive, and what a "miracle" that is. The time it took for you to even think that thought, astronomical time...

I found a great book. All Born Again's need to read. Godless by Dan Barker. Loved that book.

We'll, MY Born Again AA sponsor dropped me like a hot potato just before my first anniversary. Soon after, I found SMART recovery, did both for my second year of sobriety, then on my 2nd anniversary, I quit AA and joined on with SMART entirely. I facilitate a meeting myself now once a week.

That's my little story.

Thanks for sharing. Our lives are over in a blink. I think that all of us in the o35 can attest to how quick things have gone and how quickly they go. In saying that, I believe that being saved is not just being saved from the sin of this world, but saved for an eternity, which is, Eternity. A long time.

[Waro]

If anyone is struggleing with the question: Is there a god or not? If so, how can you prove it, and witch God/'s is the right one?
I would Definitly recommend the book by Carl Gallups: 'The Magic Man in the Sky'

Its a very importent question to be certain of cuz it changes how you view everything.

[2nd_chance]

Glad you found sobriety Medtreker.

[GuyJin]

In a way I'm almost sorry I posted in this thread but damn it, here I go again!

The whole notion of a deity/deities is really mind-boggling but one must take it with a dose of common sense. If you go by the Bible (either Old or New or even the Quran or Buddhist texts) then you have God creating the world out of nothingness, a void, if you will. But if you ask someone who truly believes (and there is nothing wrong with that) where God came from and who created him/her/it then you get a blank look and a "Well, God is God and was always there" argument which to me makes absolutely no sense at all. There had to be 'something' there at the very beginning.

Maybe its name was Higgs-Boson? (Only being semi-facetious here).

I have no problem with one believing in a faith but when faced with even the most elementary scientific questions, it just doesn't add up. To me, the notion of 'God' is simply a man-made construct and a parable of searching for the very best in all of us. That search, to me, is a most worthwhile endeavor.

[bigvin73]

In a way I'm almost sorry I posted in this thread but damn it, here I go again!

The whole notion of a deity/deities is really mind-boggling but one must take it with a dose of common sense. If you go by the Bible (either Old or New or even the Quran or Buddhist texts) then you have God creating the world out of nothingness, a void, if you will. But if you ask someone who truly believes (and there is nothing wrong with that) where God came from and who created him/her/it then you get a blank look and a "Well, God is God and was always there" argument which to me makes absolutely no sense at all. There had to be 'something' there at the very beginning.

Maybe its name was Higgs-Boson? (Only being semi-facetious here).

I have no problem with one believing in a faith but when faced with even the most elementary scientific questions, it just doesn't add up. To me, the notion of 'God' is simply a man-made construct and a parable of searching for the very best in all of us. That search, to me, is a most worthwhile endeavor.

That same principle can be applied though to evolutionist theory's on creation. Where did the earth come from? If it was a dust particle where that come from? Where did space come from?
Elementary scientific questions about the very beginning can't be answered on either side of the argument so unfortunately I'm going to have to disagree on that assumption. Not to mention pretty big leap of faith to think all of the universe created itself by a series of accidents and that's what got us to where we are now. Not much different then the leap of faith that god started it all.

[2nd_chance]

GuyJin, here is your answer. I'm sure you don't like it, but from my perspective, it is 100% spot-on.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You are trying to understand spiritual matters with the natural mind and you, not anyone else, cannot.

[Medtreker]

Glad you found sobriety Medtreker.

Thank you 2nd C !

[GuyJin]

bigvin, you have a point, but in this case, it is more logical to believe (I don't mean that in a religious sense) in the science behind the possibility of it all than going on faith as David suggests in post #150.

This is where we will differ. No, I have no definitive proof of how the universe was created and what came before that and before that and...you get the point. I have no proof at all, except the science which, imperfect as it is and is still evolving, can explain a lot more things than faith can. And this is where the arguments will begin over creationism versus science. We've all been there before and as someone said earlier on, no one is going to change their minds over it, so I will simply recuse myself from commenting anymore. For those who have the faith, my respect to you all. For those who choose to believe in the scientific side of things, my respect as well. To those who do have both...I give two thumbs up. I think Albert would have....

[bigvin73]

Guy I appreciate that bud I am kind of the weird one here I guess because I do find Merritt in both and don't believe you have to be all or nothing on religion or science I see no reason they both can't be right in ways far to long for me to type on my phone

[IronCharles]

If you go by the Bible (either Old or New or even the Quran or Buddhist texts) then you have God creating the world out of nothingness, a void, if you will. But if you ask someone who truly believes (and there is nothing wrong with that) where God came from and who created him/her/it then you get a blank look and a "Well, God is God and was always there" argument which to me makes absolutely no sense at all. There had to be 'something' there at the very beginning.

The problem with this argument is, you are trying to rationalize (or dispel) the notion of God, by using human standards.

Those who believe in creation understand that God is not subject to the laws of physics that we humans understand. In fact, the creationist understands that the concepts of time, relativity, gravity, inertia, etcetera, are properties created by God for our universe to work. It's arrogant to think that a supreme being has to fit into the laws of human physics to exist. The physics we understand are part of our universe, not the realm of spirit, or "heaven", as many refer to it.

It's like ants in an ant farm trying to argue that humans don't exist, because they've never seen one, and they wouldn't fit inside the box, anyway.

[Whiskeyjack]

GuyJin, here is your answer. I'm sure you don't like it, but from my perspective, it is 100% spot-on.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You are trying to understand spiritual matters with the natural mind.

Yes, this is the fundamental divide: Believe or not, independent of intellect.

If you believe, there is a divine mind; if you don't, there is only your own. There is the hope for something else, or the existential belief that this is it.

There is the issue of an objective reality, and the subjective knowledge of its unknowability, which does not subtend to belief.

[SP1966]

bigvin, you have a point, but in this case, it is more logical to believe (I don't mean that in a religious sense) in the science behind the possibility of it all than going on faith as David suggests in post #150.

This is where we will differ. No, I have no definitive proof of how the universe was created and what came before that and before that and...you get the point. I have no proof at all, except the science which, imperfect as it is and is still evolving, can explain a lot more things than faith can. And this is where the arguments will begin over creationism versus science. We've all been there before and as someone said earlier on, no one is going to change their minds over it, so I will simply recuse myself from commenting anymore. For those who have the faith, my respect to you all. For those who choose to believe in the scientific side of things, my respect as well. To those who do have both...I give two thumbs up. I think Albert would have....

It doesn't matter what we believe, or don't believe, either way questions go unanswered and we're forced to have faith, be it in God's existence, or lack thereof!

[2nd_chance]

Yes, this is the fundamental divide: Believe or not, independent of intellect.

If you believe, there is a divine mind; if you don't, there is only your own. There is the hope for something else, or the existential belief that this is it.

There is the issue of an objective reality, and the subjective knowledge of its unknowability, which does not subtend to belief.

Yes, it is hard to comprehend that there is a higher level of intelligence than the human intellect.

1 Corinthians 1:25
For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom