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  1. #1
    Registered User aterrigno's Avatar
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    discouraged a bit... its been three months.. negligible results

    so im not looking for someone to come on here and just say less calories or you're lazy or something


    been lifting for 5 years or so... went from 235 to 150 to 180 Im 5'8 and extremely musuclar... ive been on a cut since jan... 1400-1600 calories a day 40 40 20 split... I weigh and count every single piece of g**damn food that goes into me
    (even when I was at 150.. i had the same size back fat/belly fat)
    I lift weights 5 days a week.. i do cardio 5 days a week. usually about 15-25 mins of low intensity cardio


    weight has shifted a little... largely water weight im assuming... my back fat... just wont move.. its extremely frustrating.. at the begining of the month i incorporated oxy elite just for the hell of it

    I've been watching my calories for 5 years.. of course with the occasional vacation weeks and weekend partys but as an overall rule ive probably been on a less than 2k a day calorie diet for 5 years now I do not want to bulk... i am extremely muscular and upper body and lower body is very cut... ive been told several times not to get any bigger it will look weird
    so my question is... has anyone else seen this (former fatties please) has my body adjusted its metabolism to the constant low calorie diet? i cant imagine with the amount of muscle and intensity of my workouts eating much less than 1500 calories a day..


    I've done lots of research... i know that fat cell count in the body does not change after teenage years... you can shrink the fat cells but never lose them without lipo, i understand that this means depending on where the fat cells are I could be at relatively low BF numbers and still have the belly if thats where my fat cels are concentrated largely. i understand that low testosterone or high estrogen (usually come hand in hand) can restrict the body from losing fat.
    i do not eat any refined sugars... everything i eat is wholesome and organic (this is a personal choice so please don't come on here and say you can eat mc'ds if it fits in your macros!) I like putting high in nutrion and healthy food in me

    sooo..... wtf?!?!?! any non sarcastic real life experiences or suggestions ?
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    Registered User cebby1985's Avatar
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    When is the last time you had a cheat meal since your cut?
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    Registered User dmacdonal9's Avatar
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    You should prob post some more pics, diff angles and stuff. I'm no judge, but you don't look like 17% body fat.
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    Registered User aterrigno's Avatar
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    I eat at maintenance 1 day a weekend...

    dmacdonal9 i had a dexa scan done... it said 16.8

    I have loose skin (ive seen doctors about it) from losing so much weight... if you look in the prof pic u can see my belly button is flat... everything from my belly button down droops.

    that prof pic is a year and a half old.. ill take some pics and post if you want
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    Registered User ejthomp's Avatar
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    Tell us exactly what a normal day of eating looks like.... down to the calorie...grams of protein, etc.

    Tell us what you think your maintenance is.

    Tell us what cheats you've had over the past three weeks. Tell us exactly what you weighed 3 weeks ago and what you weigh today.

    Add up all the calories you think you've eaten in the past three full weeks and divide by 21.

    Are you keeping a log book?
    A diet isn't punishment. A diet is a way to reward your body with the wholesome, nutritious food that it needs. Your body composition is a direct reflection of what you put in your mouth.
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  6. #6
    Doc Holliday msm00b's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aterrigno View Post
    (even when I was at 150.. i had the same size back fat/belly fat) ...


    ... my back fat... just wont move.. its extremely frustrating...
    The unpopular answer to your scenario is that at the time you just were not lean enough to not have it. Looking at your progress photos from when you cut to the 150s, I'm not to surprised by that. You looked in reasonable shape with closer to average muscle mass. If losing the back fat and being "cut" had been the goal then, you'd have had to cut considerably lower - think 140 or maybe even upper 130s. In looking at your most recent photos - you've put on a LOT of high quality mass. My guess is that you'll find yourself pleasantly surprised this go around and find that your back fat is less of a problem at a weight above 150lbs.

    Let's be honest though: you're 5'8". You're short. I'm 5'8". I'm short. You likely won't naturally weigh 180 and lean without having professional grade bodybuilding levels of muscle. I think a picture is worth a thousand words: Look at XNickedgeX's pictures:

    http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/ph...hotos/11630122

    He's 5'8, clocking in at 162lbs while lean and he's a chiseled monster. That's what 160lbs and LEAN looks like on a 5'8" frame. That same relative build will weigh a lot more on a 5'10" or 6 foot plus frame. My guess is that as you cut down into the 160s you'll be pleasantly surprised. That lower back fat will go - you're just going to have to get lean as hell. For me at 5'8", that lower belly/back fat is the absolute last thing to go, and it's only gone once I'm in the 10% range and counting all 6 abs.

    Another few examples:
    5'10" 184lbs: http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/timberwolf/
    5'10" 175lbs: http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/Abdominator/
    6'0" 184lb: http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/bookerbrother/

    Axial height and skeletal frame has a huge impact on what your final weight while lean will be. All of the linked posters are very highly trained.

    so my question is... has anyone else seen this (former fatties please) has my body adjusted its metabolism to the constant low calorie diet? i cant imagine with the amount of muscle and intensity of my workouts eating much less than 1500 calories a day....
    The answer to that question is unequivocally 'no'. The degree to which a body's metabolism "adjusts" to lower calorie intake is grossly over-exaggerated; it's a notion that has propagated and parroted by fairly ignorant folks for so long that this 'fear' is often considered fact. Your post is confusing to me. You claim that you're eating 1500-1600 calories a day - a value I routinely aim for while cutting (also 5'8"). Are you losing weight? Is the fat coming off? If so, just keep up what you're doing. If not, unfortunately you're probably not counting correctly despite your best attempts.

    As for now, you've come a long way and have a great base of muscle. An updated picture would be helpful.
    Last edited by msm00b; 04-20-2012 at 08:29 AM.
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  7. #7
    Registered User aterrigno's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ejthomp View Post
    Tell us exactly what a normal day of eating looks like.... down to the calorie...grams of protein, etc.

    Tell us what you think your maintenance is.

    Tell us what cheats you've had over the past three weeks. Tell us exactly what you weighed 3 weeks ago and what you weigh today.

    Add up all the calories you think you've eaten in the past three full weeks and divide by 21.




    Are you keeping a log book?
    I use my fitness pal.... so here is what my last four days have been... its the same basically everyday...

    Thursday- total calories 1465 fat 53 carbs 97 protein 138
    Wednesday- total calories 1538 fat 45 carbs 130 protein 151
    Tuesday- total calories 1565 fat 69 carbs 71 protein 165
    Monday-total calories 1546 fat 53 carbs 105 protein 159

    Sunday- Cheat day total calories 2328 fat 42 carbs 233 protein 163


    maintenance (being conservative and not including cardio) should be around 2400... i have a desk job... so don't move too much... when I calculate it i do it at 19% bf

    Weight three weeks ago... 178
    weight yesterday morning 177
    Last edited by aterrigno; 04-20-2012 at 08:36 AM.
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  8. #8
    A Misc Corporation StrongMeat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dmacdonal9 View Post
    You should prob post some more pics, diff angles and stuff. I'm no judge, but you don't look like 17% body fat.
    the BF% people here regularly assign 10% to 8% and 20% to 15%

    i really despise these folks

    to OP
    http://imagecdn.bodybuilding.com/img...POd6AR412.jpeg
    ^^if this is most recent pic, it looks closer to 13% than anything

    all i can say is either reevaluate your maintenance WITHOUT activity, or do a bulk cycle and then cut again

    considering what you said(backfat) odds are you just need to keep cutting

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  9. #9
    Registered User aterrigno's Avatar
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    He's 5'8, clocking in at 162lbs while lean and he's a chiseled monster. That's what 160lbs and LEAN looks like on a 5'8" frame. That same relative build will weigh a lot more on a 5'10" or 6 foot plus frame. My guess is that as you cut down into the 160s you'll be pleasantly surprised. That lower back fat will go - you're just going to have to get lean as hell. For me at 5'8", that lower belly/back fat is the absolute last thing to go, and it's only gone once I'm in the 10% range and counting all 6 abs.

    agreed and agreed.... not saying I want to be 180 lbs.. thats why i am dieting..


    The answer to that question is unequivocally 'no'. The degree to which a body's metabolism "adjusts" to lower calorie intake is grossly over-exaggerated; it's a notion that has propagated and parroted by fairly ignorant folks for so long that this 'fear' is often considered fact. Your post is confusing to me. You claim that you're eating 1500-1600 calories a day - a value I routinely aim for while cutting (also 5'8"). Are you losing weight? Is the fat coming off? If so, just keep up what you're doing. If not, unfortunately you're probably not counting correctly despite your best attempts.

    I am counting my calories correctly so you are wrong there... do not leave room for error... if I am drinking it I use a liquid measuring cup, if its dry I use a dry measuring tool.

    I have a food scale and weigh all my food... i do not use condiments... i do not "eyeball" it...i do not keep any type of junk food in my house at all .. so i am not sleep walking and eating a bag of tostitos (joking guys lighten up)

    I am not exaggerating... I am not saying I am in starvation mode... I am saying that being at a less than 2000 a day calorie diet for years.. has my body learned to function (therefore giving myself a lower maintenance than the average person at my activity level) ... even when I "bulked" i didnt eat more than 2500 calories a day consistenly.. like i said perhaps on a weekend
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    Doc Holliday msm00b's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aterrigno View Post
    I am counting my calories correctly so you are wrong there... do not leave room for error... if I am drinking it I use a liquid measuring cup, if its dry I use a dry measuring tool.

    I have a food scale and weigh all my food... i do not use condiments... i do not "eyeball" it...i do not keep any type of junk food in my house at all .. so i am not sleep walking and eating a bag of tostitos (joking guys lighten up)

    I am not exaggerating... I am not saying I am in starvation mode... I am saying that being at a less than 2000 a day calorie diet for years.. has my body learned to function (therefore giving myself a lower maintenance than the average person at my activity level) ... even when I "bulked" i didnt eat more than 2500 calories a day consistenly.. like i said perhaps on a weekend
    You didn't answer the most important questions ...

    Are you losing weight on your current sub-2k diet?

    At 5'8" and pretty active I find my maintenance is about 2200-2300 with 3-4 days a week of lifting and 10-15 miles a week of running. On more than that, I gain. On less than that, I lose. If I were 6 feet tall with the same relative build, I'd probably be losing on 2200-2300 a day vs maintaining.
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    Registered User gpo613's Avatar
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    I am very interested in this post as I have issue with loose skin myself, but I am not seeing the current pics. I looked on bodyspace, but don't see them. Where are they.
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  12. #12
    Registered User aterrigno's Avatar
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    You didn't answer the most important questions ...

    Are you losing weight on your current sub-2k diet?

    no... i've lost maybe 2 lbs.. which i am sure is almost all water weight

    At 5'8" and pretty active I find my maintenance is about 2200-2300 with 3-4 days a week of lifting and 10-15 miles a week of running. On more than that, I gain. On less than that, I lose. If I were 6 feet tall with the same relative build, I'd probably be losing on 2200-2300 a day vs maintaining.[/QUOTE]


    i run about the same and bike a little as well..

    i do not include workouts when calculating my calorie needs.... so if i burn 200 calories running.. i dont add that to what I can eat

    here are pics below.. i literally just went and took them... i've already had breakfast and lunch today.. but it gives you an idea

    its hard to take pics by yourself so sorry if theyre awkward
    photo[2].JPG
    Attached Images
    Last edited by aterrigno; 04-20-2012 at 09:20 AM.
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    Have you considered mixing in a supplement or 2 that could change up/kickstart your metabolism?

    Are you on any meds for anything non-training related e.g. lithium in particular? I had lithium-related hypothyroidism and gained a ton of weight literally overnight despite being on a cut.

    It just may be a case of your body needs something different, but I look nothing like you so what do I know...
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    Registered User aterrigno's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BSpel55 View Post
    Have you considered mixing in a supplement or 2 that could change up/kickstart your metabolism?

    Are you on any meds for anything non-training related e.g. lithium in particular? I had lithium-related hypothyroidism and gained a ton of weight literally overnight despite being on a cut.

    It just may be a case of your body needs something different, but I look nothing like you so what do I know...

    Not on any medication and never really have been.... ive never really been sick in my life besides a flu or common cold


    Im at the point where I believe I have some sort of thyroid issue... most of my friends are roughly at the same weight height as me some a little shorter some a little taller... most dont workout nearly as much as I do and eat somewhere upwards of 1k to 2k more calories a day than me with far less muscle mass


    literally the only diet ive ever seen work for my mid section is a ketone diet... but my hair fell out like it was its day job so i stopped
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    Doc Holliday msm00b's Avatar
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    Bodyfat appears to be in the ballpark of upper teens presently.

    I'm assuming from your first post that you've been eating this alleged 1400-1600 calories a day since January? If that's the case and you've only lost 2-3lbs ... I know you absolutely don't want to hear this but you're not counting your calories correctly. I'm sorry, you're just not. Guys your age/size can't eat that few calories without losing weight - even while inactive. Often when faced with this dilemma, posters will insist that they're some sort of genetic anomaly or that the rules somehow don't apply evenly to them - I'd like to discourage you from going down that pathway. Barring some overt glandular problem that would be associated with a big ass laundry list of other side effects and complaints that likely don't apply to you - what you're describing is physiologically impossible.

    At truly 1400-1600 a day (consistently) the weight would literally be melting off of you at closer to 2 pounds per week. Even when I do cut on calories that low, I plan on at least one 3500-4500 calorie surplus day a week - and even then the weight consistently drops at a predictable rate. At some point your diet has a big error in it - find that error and fix it.

    Originally Posted by aterrigno View Post
    Im at the point where I believe I have some sort of thyroid issue...
    Like I said, don't go down that route. If you had clinically significant hypothyroidism sufficient to explain the discrepancies posted here, it'd be more than obvious. To blatantly copy from the mayo clinic website, a brief list of associated symptoms:

    * Fatigue
    * Sluggishness
    * Increased sensitivity to cold
    * Constipation
    * Pale, dry skin
    * A puffy face
    * Hoarse voice
    * An elevated blood cholesterol level
    * Unexplained weight gain
    * Muscle aches, tenderness and stiffness
    * Pain, stiffness or swelling in your joints
    * Muscle weakness
    * Heavier than normal menstrual periods
    * Brittle fingernails and hair
    * Depression

    As someone who's taken care of individuals with hypothyroidism, you don't fit the bill. Your previous years bulking success flies right in the face of clinically significant hypothyroidism. Even then, the degree to which you'd have to be 'hypothyroid' to not lose weight at 1400-1600 with your size and level of physical activity - trust me when I say that we wouldn't be having this conversation here and now. You would have been in a doctors office months ago for other concerns.

    Re-evaluate the diet.
    Last edited by msm00b; 04-20-2012 at 09:34 AM.
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    Registered User aterrigno's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by msm00b View Post
    Bodyfat appears to be in the ballpark of upper teens presently.

    I'm assuming from your first post that you've been eating this alleged 1400-1600 calories a day since January? If that's the case and you've only lost 2-3lbs ... I know you absolutely don't want to hear this but you're not counting your calories correctly. I'm sorry, you're just not. Guys your age/size can't eat that few calories without losing weight - even while inactive. Often when faced with this dilemma, posters will insist that they're some sort of genetic anomaly or that the rules somehow don't apply evenly to them - I'd like to discourage you from going down that pathway. Barring some overt glandular problem that would be associated with a big ass laundry list of other side effects and complaints that likely don't apply to you - what you're describing is physiologically impossible.

    At truly 1400-1600 a day (consistently) the weight would literally be melting off of you at closer to 2 pounds per week. Even when I do cut on calories that low, I plan on at least one 3500-4500 calorie surplus day a week - and even then the weight consistently drops at a predictable rate. At some point your diet has a big error in it - find that error and fix it.
    appreciate the time you are taking to respond... but you're wrong...

    lol its that simple.. no room for error and im not lying to you... sooooooo perhaps theres something else going on that you cant figure out...
    as you can see i am not a noob at this stuff... i have no reason to lie to you or to not measure my calories correctly..

    I only eat chicken breasts,pork, and occasionally a lean beef burger.. I eat less than my 120 lb girlfriend who I live with

    literally no matter how much ive dieted or how low ive gotten... ive never lost this tire... my waist is literally the exact same from when I was 145-150 to now...

    soooo I guess I won't get the answer i am lookin for here.. I will see a nutritionist or doctor i suppose.

    thanks guys
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    Doc Holliday msm00b's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aterrigno View Post
    I will see a nutritionist or doctor i suppose.
    You're talking to one right now ...
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    Originally Posted by msm00b View Post
    You're talking to one right now ...
    a doctor or nutritionist... there is a distinct difference between the two
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    A doctor.

    Having worked closely with many nutritionists, I can tell you honestly that you won't like what they have to tell you either.
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    do a refeed, a true refeed, and then go back to dieting without any cheating for 2 weeks. thank me after.
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    Originally Posted by msm00b View Post
    A doctor.

    Having worked closely with many nutritionists, I can tell you honestly that you won't like what they have to tell you either.

    well what do you suggest then sir?...

    you're insinuating that I am miscalculating my daily calorie intake by close to 1000 calories per day.... I am telling you it is impossible... so where do I go from here? should I cut out 1000 calories of my calculated calories and those phantom calories I am taking in will keep me alive?

    there's something else occuring.. i do not know what it is.. i am not looking to take an easy way out.. i am looking for a logical explanation that I can work through.
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    The only logical explanation for your lack of weight loss over the last 3 months is that you're currently putting as many calories in your mouth as your body is expending. Like it or not, you're eating right around maintenance. There are therefore only 2 possible explanations:

    1) you are a 1:1,000,000 genetic freak of nature given the absolute lack of other associated symptoms and overall good health (chance: one in a million). Had this been the case, you likely would never have been able to cut down to the 150s in the first place.

    2) you aren't calculating correctly (ie you fall into the 99.99999999% of guys with the exact same complaint)

    I'd bet the hair on my head that if you followed me around daily and ate exactly what I ate - you'd be losing weight and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Since you can't, that leaves you the simple task of sitting back down and re-thinking your diet; because what you're doing clearly isn't getting you the results you want. The alternative is that you can go spend your valuable time and hard earned money to have somebody order unnecessary bloodwork to tell you exactly what I just told you - or even worse go sit down with a nutritionist who will preach to you the dangers of eating more than 65gm of protein a day.
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    PS: what is your supplement stack right now, or do you have one? Aside from calorie-rich stuff that routinely trip people up (ie: nuts etc), this is often a source of undisclosed caloric intake. Everything from whey supplements to OTC creatine + sugar powders, to BCAAs - stuff that has calories in it that we don't often think of as 'food'.
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    If you are very sure that you're eating just that then you should see a doctor to check your thyroid levels
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    Originally Posted by msm00b View Post
    The only logical explanation for your lack of weight loss over the last 3 months is that you're currently putting as many calories in your mouth as your body is expending. Like it or not, you're eating right around maintenance. There are therefore only 2 possible explanations:

    1) you are a 1:1,000,000 genetic freak of nature given the absolute lack of other associated symptoms and overall good health (chance: one in a million). Had this been the case, you likely would never have been able to cut down to the 150s in the first place.

    2) you aren't calculating correctly (ie you fall into the 99.99999999% of guys with the exact same complaint)

    I'd bet the hair on my head that if you followed me around daily and ate exactly what I ate - you'd be losing weight and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Since you can't, that leaves you the simple task of sitting back down and re-thinking your diet; because what you're doing clearly isn't getting you the results you want. The alternative is that you can go spend your valuable time and hard earned money to have somebody order unnecessary bloodwork to tell you exactly what I just told you - or even worse go sit down with a nutritionist who will preach to you the dangers of eating more than 65gm of protein a day.
    this is spot on OP

    judging by the pics, you have 12-15lbs to lose still

    1600-1800 cals @ 160g+ protein a day should do good for you, make sure you are accurately counting cals

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    Last edited by StrongMeat; 04-20-2012 at 10:01 AM.
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    msm00b is trying very hard to help you and you are pretty sure of your calorie counting so this is going nowhere

    why don't you try a extreme like a psmf for 2 weeks and see if you drop a few lbs? eat nothing but grilled six 8oz chicken breasts for 12 days and see if you lose weight (no carbs, no fat)

    if you don't still lose more than 2lbs of body weight go seek professional help
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    there is a 3rd possibility here.

    his gf is scared of him leaving her, so she is hooking him up to a feeding tube while he sleeps.
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    Originally Posted by msm00b View Post
    The only logical explanation for your lack of weight loss over the last 3 months is that you're currently putting as many calories in your mouth as your body is expending. Like it or not, you're eating right around maintenance. There are therefore only 2 possible explanations:

    1) you are a 1:1,000,000 genetic freak of nature given the absolute lack of other associated symptoms and overall good health (chance: one in a million). Had this been the case, you likely would never have been able to cut down to the 150s in the first place.

    2) you aren't calculating correctly (ie you fall into the 99.99999999% of guys with the exact same complaint)

    I'd bet the hair on my head that if you followed me around daily and ate exactly what I ate - you'd be losing weight and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Since you can't, that leaves you the simple task of sitting back down and re-thinking your diet; because what you're doing clearly isn't getting you the results you want. The alternative is that you can go spend your valuable time and hard earned money to have somebody order unnecessary bloodwork to tell you exactly what I just told you - or even worse go sit down with a nutritionist who will preach to you the dangers of eating more than 65gm of protein a day.
    lol guess waste of money it is... here is what I ate yesterday... and this is VIRTUALLY THE EXACT SAME MEAL PLAN EVERYDAY

    Breakfast: organic instant hot oatmeal 1 packet with .5 tbsp of organic creamy peanut butter 260 calories

    Lunch: lean turkey burger 4 oz 200 calories
    boars head white american cheese 1.5 ounces 165 calories
    100% whole wheat english muffin 120 calories

    Dinner: 8 oz lauras lean ground beef
    1 half of english muffin whole wheat- 60 calories
    .5 cup raw broccoli 15 calories

    I also had three gold standard 100% weigh protein shakes (1 in am 1 post workout out 1 pre bed) 360 calories

    Please enlighten me... where could I possibly misjudge 800-1000 calories...

    perhaps I confused 1 slice of cheese with 1 lb?!?!?!

    or

    the package of ground beef that only had 1 lb in it and I split in half with my girlfriend... maybe i snuck her burger..

    forgive my sarcasm but id rather not argue with someone over what i am eating and try and figure something else out...

    I Will try a refeed and see what happens


    when I got to 150... i did 2 hours of cardio a day and ate less than 900 calories a day
    ..
    and I lost a lot of muscle
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    Doc Holliday msm00b's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aterrigno View Post
    when I got to 150... i did 2 hours of cardio a day and ate less than 900 calories a day
    ...
    ROFL ...

    This thread had potential. Good luck with your endocrine problem.
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    msm00b, thanks for all your input. I am finding your directness and fact driven posts very helpful. Also interesting to see the 5'8 160 guy to put some picture to the explanation.
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