Mark Rippetoe explains the main reason why we (the USA) suck at olympic weightlifting

[glennpendlay]

And this is one of the main reasons why Mark wrote this article. But it seems, from the responses in this thread, that people who "know better" will ignore it, and continue to lead us down the road to failure. Oh well.

The article makes little sense if you do not accept the premise, and most who are connected to USA weightlifting do not accept that. Particularly for the OTC. The knock on the OTC in the past is usually that there is an over emphasis on strength and not enough work on the lifts. It would not be unusual for someone leaving the OTC in the past complaining that their squat was up 30kg but their snatch and clean and jerk hadnt moved.

[glennpendlay]

Really? I watched that same podcast and it seems to me that shane was agreeing with the gist of what he was saying. He did not object to any of Rip's ideas on camera, thats for sure.

Shane is a very polite man. And, he did mention that there was lots of heavy squatting going on and people regularly trying for new PR's. I am not sure why that was glossed over.

[IzzyT]

In terms of the internet, both Glenn and Rip have implied that the other is a liar on at least one occasion off of the top of my head. They have personal issues. I'd take anything that either of them say about each other with a grain of salt.

I also find it interesting that if many of you think Rip's argument is so poor, and so stupid, that you don't go ahead and just argue with him on his board. I assure you he will be willing to do so. I'm inclined to just trust the person closer to the situation, Pendlay, but calling out someone's ideas from a distance is keyboard warriorship at its finest.

[Conquer92]

Shane is a very polite man. And, he did mention that there was lots of heavy squatting going on and people regularly trying for new PR's. I am not sure why that was glossed over.

Heavy squat variations are staple for olympic lifting training though.

Most oly lifters typically wouldnt consider movements such as bench press and deadlifts staples in their training regimen, as Rip is suggesting.

I have great respect for both of you, but maybe it is time that we try something new. Wouldnt hurt.

[scarboro]

No matter what they total, only one man will go. And BTW, Shankle is ranked higher than Kendrick in the international rankings.

Is there a different way the rankings are/are calculated?
iwf.net rankings show Donny tied for 37th in the 105s while Kendrick tied for 32nd in the 85s for 2011.
I'm a big Donny Shankle fan btw, I'm hoping he beats Kendrick for the spot if you get it.

[IzzyT]

The training at Broz's and CalStrength are not the problem, and are not what I'm referring to in this piece. I'm referring to our National program and all the subsidiaries thereof, the programs all over the country using the templates similar to the ones posted at the bottom of the article. Heavy squats are required, but they are not the only exercise that should compose a strength program for ANY sport.

From Rip's board..

[glennpendlay]

Most oly lifters typically wouldnt consider movements such as bench press and deadlifts staples in their training regimen, as Rip is suggesting... maybe it is time that we try something new. Wouldnt hurt.

Keeping this simply about about ideas, and not personal, I will say this. The ideas being promoted in the Starting Strength article are that right now the "establishment position" in USA weightlifting is that strength gains are relatively unimportant, and the only thing to worry about is technique, technique, technique. The solution is then presented that we all put more energy into strength exercises and put the focus on getting stronger

I would propose that this is not the case, the whole premise is wrong. I would propose that the OTC program, at least until our present coach got there, has always had a very, very high concentration of attention on strength exercises, so much so that within the weightlifting community, the main criticism has usually been that lifters go there for a year, get their squat way up, but fail to make significant improvement on the snatch and clean and jerk.

And furthermore, I would say that the OTC and the training program there has very, very, very little influence on what is happening outside the OTC. Almost none at all. So, the idea of the OTC leading the rest of us astray is wrong. Most coaches and clubs in the USA have always gone their own way, and continue to do wo. What influences us the most is who is winning, and what they are doing. Way more people have had their training programs influenced by what Kendrick Farris, Donny Shankle, or Pat Mendes is doing than wht is happening in Colorado Springs.

[chigiskov]

Keeping this simply about about ideas, and not personal, I will say this. The ideas being promoted in the Starting Strength article are that right now the "establishment position" in USA weightlifting is that strength gains are relatively unimportant, and the only thing to worry about is technique, technique, technique. The solution is then presented that we all put more energy into strength exercises and put the focus on getting stronger

I would propose that this is not the case, the whole premise is wrong. I would propose that the OTC program, at least until our present coach got there, has always had a very, very high concentration of attention on strength exercises, so much so that within the weightlifting community, the main criticism has usually been that lifters go there for a year, get their squat way up, but fail to make significant improvement on the snatch and clean and jerk.

And furthermore, I would say that the OTC and the training program there has very, very, very little influence on what is happening outside the OTC. Almost none at all. So, the idea of the OTC leading the rest of us astray is wrong. Most coaches and clubs in the USA have always gone their own way, and continue to do wo. What influences us the most is who is winning, and what they are doing. Way more people have had their training programs influenced by what Kendrick Farris, Donny Shankle, or Pat Mendes is doing than wht is happening in Colorado Springs.

Honest question here, but why can't the USA get a national institutionalized weightlifting program together like every other country in the world? And why can't they copy the exact programming of say, Russians? I mean this with the utmost respect for what you do at CalStrength, but why isn't there a place for athletes to live and get programming that is proven to work (ie Russian or any country that medals)? Is it because coaches don't want to work together or submit to a head coach? Or is it more because coaches in america have to be businessmen and make sure they turn profit because there is no state support resulting in athletes being spread out around the country? You can't deny that other countries have huge success in part because ALL the top guys from every weight class are training and competing together, biting at each others heels. How much would Jon's numbers go up if he was training with/against Flemming, Phil, Ian every day instead of being top dog at Calstrength??

[glennpendlay]

Honest question here, but why can't the USA get a national institutionalized weightlifting program together like every other country in the world? And why can't they copy the exact programming of say, Russians? I mean this with the utmost respect for what you do at CalStrength, but why isn't there a place for athletes to live and get programming that is proven to work (ie Russian or any country that medals)? Is it because coaches don't want to work together or submit to a head coach? Or is it more because coaches in america have to be businessmen and make sure they turn profit because there is no state support resulting in athletes being spread out around the country? You can't deny that other countries have huge success in part because ALL the top guys from every weight class are training and competing together, biting at each others heels. How much would Jon's numbers go up if he was training with/against Flemming, Phil, Ian every day instead of being top dog at Calstrength??

We cant do that because the money to make it happen does not exist. For what it is worth, I agree with you that if Jon and Ian and Phil and Flemming and Wilkes could all train together, it would push them all to higher numbers.

As far as copying foriegn programs, to a large extent, that is already being done. At the OTC they follow Polish programming, many prominent coaches and teams copy bulgarian, and I can also think of several who do their best to follow Russian programming.

[Rusty56]

We cant do that because the money to make it happen does not exist. For what it is worth, I agree with you that if Jon and Ian and Phil and Flemming and Wilkes could all train together, it would push them all to higher numbers.

As far as copying foriegn programs, to a large extent, that is already being done. At the OTC they follow Polish programming, many prominent coaches and teams copy bulgarian, and I can also think of several who do their best to follow Russian programming.

I have a question for you Mr. Pendlay. Do American weighlifting coaches ever try to actively recruit athletes from other sports that didnt quite make it in their sport. to clarify what I mean lets say a guy plays college football and is an incredible athlete (he plays WR or DB for instance) but due to either mental execution or injury he is either not offered a job in the NFL or is forced to retire after just a couple years. Do any of the prominent american coaches such as yourself ever try to talk this athlete into coming training at your facilities in the hopes of becoming an olympian one day? or would it be far too late into thier lives for them to start training and achieve that feat?

[GqArtguy]

In terms of the internet, both Glenn and Rip have implied that the other is a liar on at least one occasion off of the top of my head. They have personal issues. I'd take anything that either of them say about each other with a grain of salt.

Definitely true.

[fraverdenstreet]

i have question for glenn:
what do i do if i suck

[glennpendlay]

I have a question for you Mr. Pendlay. Do American weighlifting coaches ever try to actively recruit athletes from other sports that didnt quite make it in their sport. to clarify what I mean lets say a guy plays college football and is an incredible athlete (he plays WR or DB for instance) but due to either mental execution or injury he is either not offered a job in the NFL or is forced to retire after just a couple years. Do any of the prominent american coaches such as yourself ever try to talk this athlete into coming training at your facilities in the hopes of becoming an olympian one day? or would it be far too late into thier lives for them to start training and achieve that feat?

Jon North played college football and was recruited from football to weightlifting. Tom Sroka was a collegiate shot putter, and was recruited to weightlifting from that. Kevin Cornell was a collegiate baseball player. Spencer Moorman threw the shot in high school, and had college scholarship offers for throwing but was recruited to weightlifting instead. So, the answer is yes, we do recruite from other sports.

And yes, we do actively try to recruit say, the guys we train for the for say, the NFL combine or a Pro Day. If it is evident that they are not gonna get picked up, we make it known that the possibility exists to convert to weightlifting if they want to.

It would be better to start these guys at 12 years old, but, the list of people who have started in their 20's and achieved great success is very long.

[glennpendlay]

i have question for glenn:
what do i do if i suck

Train hard till you don't suck anymore.

[HesterW]

Jon North played college football and was recruited from football to weightlifting. Tom Sroka was a collegiate shot putter, and was recruited to weightlifting from that. Kevin Cornell was a collegiate baseball player. Spencer Moorman threw the shot in high school, and had college scholarship offers for throwing but was recruited to weightlifting instead. So, the answer is yes, we do recruite from other sports.

And yes, we do actively try to recruit say, the guys we train for the for say, the NFL combine or a Pro Day. If it is evident that they are not gonna get picked up, we make it known that the possibility exists to convert to weightlifting if they want to.

It would be better to start these guys at 12 years old, but, the list of people who have started in their 20's and achieved great success is very long.

Would you say 18 is too late to start?

[Reidy]

Would you say 18 is too late to start?

He said in the post you quoted that the list of people who have started in their 20's and achieved great success is very long," so something tells me he's going to say no.

[fraverdenstreet]

Would you say 18 is too late to start?

dude i started at like late 20y/o

[WHT_LIGHTNING]

dude i started at like late 20y/o

I just turned 26, so I barely started oly at 25. Started strongman at 24, and training legit for football (which I got to play when I was in the USMC ast 22ish). Now, I pretty much suck right now, but I will get good

Seriously, don't worry about **** you can't control. There have been olympians in the mid 30s....

[Rusty56]

Jon North played college football and was recruited from football to weightlifting. Tom Sroka was a collegiate shot putter, and was recruited to weightlifting from that. Kevin Cornell was a collegiate baseball player. Spencer Moorman threw the shot in high school, and had college scholarship offers for throwing but was recruited to weightlifting instead. So, the answer is yes, we do recruite from other sports.

And yes, we do actively try to recruit say, the guys we train for the for say, the NFL combine or a Pro Day. If it is evident that they are not gonna get picked up, we make it known that the possibility exists to convert to weightlifting if they want to.

It would be better to start these guys at 12 years old, but, the list of people who have started in their 20's and achieved great success is very long.

that answers that question. lol. would you say that the main reason that the USA is not contending for gold medals every 4 years isnt because of PED use (ourselves vs other countries), lack of youth programs, or our training methods; it is because our very best naturally gifted athletes simply aren't interested in weightlifting when they are more than likely gonna make millions in the NFL, NBA, or MLB.

Edit: I say best naturally gifted athletes aren't interested in weighlifting but I can't think of anyone I've ever even heard of that could bench 385lbs at 15 yrs old. Shankle is a beast lol.

[glennpendlay]

that answers that question. lol. would you say that the main reason that the USA is not contending for gold medals every 4 years isnt because of PED use (ourselves vs other countries), lack of youth programs, or our training methods; it is because our very best naturally gifted athletes simply aren't interested in weightlifting when they are more than likely gonna make millions in the NFL, NBA, or MLB.

Edit: I say best naturally gifted athletes aren't interested in weighlifting but I can't think of anyone I've ever even heard of that could bench 385lbs at 15 yrs old. Shankle is a beast lol.

The biggest problems are not getting enough of the really top tiered genetic beasts into the sport, and when they do come, too often they come too late in life to really do what they could have. For example, Shankle started at 20 years old, but there is no doubt in my mind that he could have been better if he started at age 12. We lact these things for reasons that have been discussed to death.

[Rusty56]

sucks that the number 1 sport in america (football) isnt an olympic sport. we'd win that every time lol.

[bcop]

Shane is a very polite man. And, he did mention that there was lots of heavy squatting going on and people regularly trying for new PR's. I am not sure why that was glossed over.

in case anyone wants to form their own opinion about the Rip/Shane interview, here is the entire interview, in 4 parts. Warning, it is very long.

[chigiskov]

damn, patton oswalt got swole!

[BongoBanger]

surprised no one mentioned caleb williams.

[chigiskov]

surprised no one mentioned caleb williams.

He is coached by zygmunt just in case you are wondering. He never back squats or does heavy pulls. But I'm guessing you're talking about his PL background?

[runtocatch]

That was well worth watchin.

[hammerfelt]

I would think that for any Olympic style lifter that "Strongman: The Doug Hepburn Story" by Tom Thurston should be required reading.

One of the greatest Olympic lifters of all time was also the first man to have a credited 500lb bench press.

He spent a lot of time doing "non olympic" lifts.

This book covers his life and training. I have not found a similar book that goes into such detail.

[tabbyh]

Rippletoe is right on alot of his points tho. A master of the strength game.

[thejdeck]

The average 77 lifter in china (well there average is on a different level then any of our lifters) can squat around 600...so I wouldn't say our strength matches there's

[GoJu]

The average 77 lifter in china (well there average is on a different level then any of our lifters) can squat around 600...so I wouldn't say our strength matches there's

For reference



I don't know if he's average but there are at least 9 or 10 guys on par with him if the Chinese Nationals were indication.