Ups and Downs of Getting Big

[Jen0va]

I can give you some insight as to how people become obese while you find it hard to consume 5k cals per day.

They eat way more than 5k cals per day (when I was obese I could do this in a sitting easily), Usually drinking a large amount of sugared beverages contributes to obesity, obese people are often very sedentary, and above all GENETICS.

[MikeyMinaj]

It's really not so difficult to get those calories in when you know how. So honestly, it just sounds like you don't.

The reason so many people gain weight and become obese is because they eat very calorie-dense processed food (not grilled chicken and asparagus) and are very sedentary.

I'm not saying you should be eating junk food to meet your calories, but perhaps you need to be more creative with your meals, as well as less strict with your food selections. Even seemingly “bad” foods such as donuts can be perfectly neutral to health (& even beneficial in a psychological sense) as long as most of your diet is still composed of whole & minimally refined foods. Add thick sauces to your pasta. Have some full-fat ice cream every day and cheesecake after dinner. Drink (chocolate) milk with meals. Etc. etc. 5000 calories will be a piece of cake.

Hell yes!

I look forward to my nightly bowl of ice cream!!!

[adean1989]

Can people stop spouting non sense about genetics predisposing them to obesity? I've written my dissertation on the very topic and at the end of the day you'll be getting larger than life only because you scoff down more food than you should.

[WonderPug]

Can people stop spouting non sense about genetics predisposing them to obesity? I've written my dissertation on the very topic and at the end of the day you'll be getting larger than life only because you scoff down more food than you should.

But what if the truth is politically incorrect?

[adean1989]

But what if the truth is politically incorrect?

Touché! I sometimes forget we live in a society where nobody is ever at fault, responsible for their actions or to blame. I blame the previous generation

[Jen0va]

Can people stop spouting non sense about genetics predisposing them to obesity? I've written my dissertation on the very topic and at the end of the day you'll be getting larger than life only because you scoff down more food than you should.

I'm in no way saying that an ectomorph can't become fat if they eat calories largely above maintenance, nor that an endomorph can't be thin if they diet very strictly. but to say genetics plays no part in the likelyhood of obesity statistically is to say that these body types don't exist. which is false.

^my response if what you said is aimed at what I posted previously.

[WonderPug]

Touché! I sometimes forget we live in a society where nobody is ever at fault, responsible for their actions or to blame. I blame the previous generation

Exactly. Just remember, nothing can be your fault in a politically correct society, but everything can be someone else's fault.

[adean1989]

I'm in no way saying that an ectomorph can't become fat if they eat calories largely above maintenance, nor that an endomorph can't be thin if they diet very strictly. but to say genetics plays no part in the likelyhood of obesity statistically is to say that these body types don't exist. which is false.

These "body types" you describe, don't exist.

Exactly. Just remember, nothing can be your fault in a politically correct society, but everything can be someone else's fault.

Wise words WonderPug, I'll try my best to live by them and thanks! (I have no idea how you're on spread...)

[t12jm]

Can people stop spouting non sense about genetics predisposing them to obesity? I've written my dissertation on the very topic and at the end of the day you'll be getting larger than life only because you scoff down more food than you should.

You seem to have defined predisposition in a very strict manner, which -- by the standards of modern medicine and science -- would be inappropriate.

[overunder]

I wasn't. Where did you see bread, almonds, and a shake? Looked like chicken to me.

OP how many calories do you cut on??

[adean1989]

You seem to have defined predisposition in a very strict manner, which -- by the standards of modern medicine and science -- would be inappropriate.

Very strict sure because predisposition towards obesity is almost solely at the level of nutrient intake, not marked differences in nutrient partitioning. If you want to argue you are predisposed to addictive behaviour, increased compulsion and a lack of will power then sure you will have a meritable stance. Some people are hungrier than others, some people have more of an "innate drive to move" and yes there are a select few individuals who will unconsciously increase NEAT in response to a surplus of calories. Never the less, no one ever guided that food into your mouth but you alone.

EDIT:
Let us not make a reference to rare disorders such as congenital Leptin deficiency or wide spread neurological disorders, which effect the hypothalamus such as Prader–Willi syndrome (which lead to voracious, insatiable appetites/marked hyper****ia).

[t12jm]

Very strict sure because predisposition towards obesity is almost solely at the level of nutrient intake, not marked differences in nutrient partitioning. If you want to argue you are predisposed to addictive behaviour, increased compulsion and a lack of will power then sure you will have a meritable stance. Some people are hungrier than others, some people have more of an "innate drive to move" and yes there are a select few individuals who will unconsciously increase NEAT in response to a surplus of calories. Never the less, no one ever guided that food into your mouth but you alone.

EDIT:
Let us not make a reference to rare disorders such as congenital Leptin deficiency or wide spread neurological disorders, which effect the hypothalamus such as Prader–Willi syndrome.

The bolded is currently the focus of a great deal of research. Addiction and compulsion are a continuum of psychological drives with baseline genetic and limitless environmental factors. As the brain ultimately decides how much we eat, be it through conscious decision or innate drive to survive, the only way one can define such a predisposition (or lack thereof) is by defining the brain itself. This hasn't been accomplished yet, not even close.

It's easy to dismiss the entire field of neuropsychiatry in an attempt to make things very black and white, but that's doing a disservice to science in my opinion. (As well as a disservice to millions of people).

edit: and the general idea of the bold was the point of my first post, nothing regarding specific genetic syndromes or diseases, or differences in nutrient partitioning, for that matter.

[2020Wellness]

OP how many calories do you cut on??

Roughly 3K for cutting, without any cardio added.

[egoneo]

Very strict sure because predisposition towards obesity is almost solely at the level of nutrient intake, not marked differences in nutrient partitioning. If you want to argue you are predisposed to addictive behaviour, increased compulsion and a lack of will power then sure you will have a meritable stance. Some people are hungrier than others, some people have more of an "innate drive to move" and yes there are a select few individuals who will unconsciously increase NEAT in response to a surplus of calories. Never the less, no one ever guided that food into your mouth but you alone.

EDIT:
Let us not make a reference to rare disorders such as congenital Leptin deficiency or wide spread neurological disorders, which effect the hypothalamus such as Prader–Willi syndrome (which lead to voracious, insatiable appetites/marked hyper****ia).

so you're saying that their genetics has nothing to do with their fat gain and its all to do with the nutrients they're consuming? if youre saying that genetics has nothing to do with gaining weight you cant say lets disregard congenital Leptin deficiency and others because thats a reason for them to eat and gain weight. Lucky my gf is a doctor im going to double check with her about this stuff.

[t12jm]

so you're saying that their genetics has nothing to do with their fat gain and its all to do with the nutrients they're consuming? if youre saying that genetics has nothing to do with gaining weight you cant say lets disregard congenital Leptin deficiency and others because thats a reason for them to eat and gain weight. Lucky my gf is a doctor im going to double check with her about this stuff.

his point in excluding those syndromes/diseases was that they are very, very rare. Therefore, they don't significantly contribute to the obesity "epidemic" <-- if you wish to call it that.

[WonderPug]

his point in excluding those syndromes/diseases was that they are very, very rare. Therefore, they don't significantly contribute to the obesity "epidemic" <-- if you wish to call it that.

And he's correct, as obesity was virtually non existant in the States in the late 1800's.

[t12jm]

And he's correct, as obesity was virtually non existant in the States in the late 1800's.

Correct to exclude the well characterized and rare genetic conditions. To exclude all genetic predisposition beyond those conditions is overstepping, in my opinion. One can easily form an idea as to why such predispositions wouldn't be so apparent in the late 1800s as they are today.

[ParsonBrown]

Why? Not sure I follow you there. Since when is it detrimental to long term health to eat before bed?

LOL...just ate a big bowl of cereal before bed! Im one of those guys who can eat and eat...5k is small fries. Gots to have discipline and not go over my daily cals and macros bro.... 3300 is near my maintenance. But I was a fatty a couple years back and I'm always hungry

[WonderPug]

5k is small fries.

You should try sweet potato fries.

[ParsonBrown]

You should try sweet potato fries.

Love em...

I think this thread should be about favorite potatoes. Would be more interesting.

[adean1989]

The bolded is currently the focus of a great deal of research. Addiction and compulsion are a continuum of psychological drives with baseline genetic and limitless environmental factors. As the brain ultimately decides how much we eat, be it through conscious decision or innate drive to survive, the only way one can define such a predisposition (or lack thereof) is by defining the brain itself. This hasn't been accomplished yet, not even close.

It's easy to dismiss the entire field of neuropsychiatry in an attempt to make things very black and white, but that's doing a disservice to science in my opinion. (As well as a disservice to millions of people).

edit: and the general idea of the bold was the point of my first post, nothing regarding specific genetic syndromes or diseases, or differences in nutrient partitioning, for that matter.

Firstly I am not dismissing anything and hence acknowledge the predisposition towards certain behaviours, which may encourage the actualization of obesity. However I have studied in depth the effects of many genetic variations such as FTO and the evidence is clear. The cumulative effect of all known risk alleles can not be concluded "responsible" for the severity and extensiveness of obesity we witness today (how I hate the phrase obesity "epidemic"!).

At this point in time you are free to remain open minded and consider the possibility of undiscovered traits that are ubiquitous and promote over eating but I disagree wholeheartedly. Obesity is as much a cultural phenomenon as it is rooted in our DNA. Food is essential to our survival and thus it is unfair to compare it to say drugs, alcohol and gambling, but we are all autonomous human beings. We reason, we rationalise and are ultimately responsible for our actions. Sedentary life styles coupled with convenient calorie dense foods is what leads to obesity. You are essentially arguing our difficulty in controlling ourselves is what leads to obesity and by that line of thought all individual human behaviour has a deterministic genetic component, given a suitable environment.

so you're saying that their genetics has nothing to do with their fat gain and its all to do with the nutrients they're consuming? if youre saying that genetics has nothing to do with gaining weight you cant say lets disregard congenital Leptin deficiency and others because thats a reason for them to eat and gain weight. Lucky my gf is a doctor im going to double check with her about this stuff.

Congenital Leptin deficiency primarily acts through uncontrollable appetite. These people are constantly hungry due to the uncoupling of homeostatic feedback from fat stores to the appetite control centre in the brain.

EDIT:
t12jm it's 6:37am I'm off to bed but will try and check this thread later if you wish to continue the discussion!

[Joseph1990]

natural size limit

lol.

[t12jm]

Firstly I am not dismissing anything and hence acknowledge the predisposition towards certain behaviours, which may encourage the actualization of obesity. However I have studied in depth the effects of many genetic variations such as FTO and the evidence is clear. The cumulative effect of all known risk alleles can not be concluded "responsible" for the severity and extensiveness of obesity we witness today (how I hate the phrase obesity "epidemic"!).

At this point in time you are free to remain open minded and consider the possibility of undiscovered traits that are ubiquitous and promote over eating but I disagree wholeheartedly. Obesity is as much a cultural phenomenon as it is rooted in our DNA. Food is essential to our survival and thus it is unfair to compare it to say drugs, alcohol and gambling, but we are all autonomous human beings. We reason, we rationalise and are ultimately responsible for our actions. Sedentary life styles coupled with convenient calorie dense foods is what leads to obesity. You are essentially arguing our difficulty in controlling ourselves is what leads to obesity and by that line of thought all individual human behaviour has a deterministic genetic component, given a suitable environment.



Congenital Leptin deficiency primarily acts through uncontrollable appetite. These people are constantly hungry due to the uncoupling of homeostatic feedback from fat stores to the appetite control centre in the brain.

EDIT:
t12jm it's 6:37am I'm off to bed but will try and check this thread later if you wish to continue the discussion!

You keep using words like "cause" and "responsible" in your argument against a predisposition. I think your stance would be infinitely more defensible if you simply changed your statement to "there exists no genetic cause for obesity", and with that I would agree wholeheartedly. To deny the existence of a predisposition is truly indefensible though, considering the variables which make up the answer have yet to be defined.

Regarding the bold: you're reading way too far into my posts. I haven't argued for any conclusion. I've argued that your conclusion was premature, given the current lack of evidence and knowledge on the subject.
Even if I had made a stance, the bold would be a mischaracterization. A predisposition is simply that, a predisposition. Not a cause. Not necessary for obesity, not sufficient for obesity.

But even so, I've purposefully not made any claims other than collective ignorance on behalf of the entire scientific community. The complex interplay between hunger hormones, fear conditioning, chronic stress, and reward behavior leads to structural differences in the brain from person to person. The criteria for a "genet predisposition" are only that it must be heritable and it must make one more susceptible to obesity than the general population through any mechanism. Chronic psychosocial stress elevates ghrelin dramatically. One possibility, then, is that any genetic component which predisposes one to be more susceptible to stress, also predisposes them to obesity. That's just a simple example, meant to illustrate the broad scope of the field. There are limitless other considerations. Your mention of specific alleles related to obesity, which is useful to rule out, is narrow in scope and doesn't preclude the existence of a genetic component.

Finally, no one is denying that eating more is the problem and eating less is the solution. However, the majority (read: everyone not on a bodybuilding forum) of people don't track calories down to the very last cracker. They simply eat to satiety as nature would suggest is healthy. Its a simple, reasonable postulation that genetics can play a role in making that satiety "set point" different from individual to individual.

Cliffs:

1)the collective fund of knowledge is insufficient to rule out a genetic component.

2)a predisposition can be (and if so in this case, most certainly is) multifactorial -- so no need for ubiquity as you mention.

3)the answer lies in the neurobiology of appetite as it relates to thousands of other inputs to the brain. Not necessarily just ones inherent baseline hormonal profile.