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  1. #151
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    Originally Posted by PlasticJanus View Post
    I already dealt with this objection. You can get absolute metaphysical truths by corresponding propositions to facts about our metaphysical framework in the same way that you can get typical truths by corresponding propositions to typical facts. No source of ultimate truth required.
    ok then, how would you determine the validity of human reason?
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    Originally Posted by magog704 View Post
    that's right. what you're describing is platonism. it's kind of archaic in the world of philosophy.

    so there is no Truth, capital T.


    "there are no facts, only interpretations" -Nietzsche
    well, according to that logic, what you wrote is untrue, so dont be upset if i ignore what you just said.
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  3. #153
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    Originally Posted by blablablah View Post
    ok then, how would you determine the validity of human reason?
    I also already addressed this. Human reasoning is not an argument. It doesn't make sense to ask whether or not it is valid.
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  4. #154
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    Originally Posted by blablablah View Post
    well, according to that logic, what you wrote is untrue, so dont be upset if i ignore what you just said.
    i would never be upset that you take issue with the last 150 years of western philosophical inquiry. that's your prerogative.

    people say way dumber shiit than you, like the earth is 5000 years old. if i took issue with every ignorant thing i heard i wouldnt make it through the day.
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  5. #155
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    Originally Posted by blablablah View Post
    ok then, how would you determine the validity of human reason?
    We can show that it works!

    Our reasoning is valid because it is an evolutionary adaptation which served us extremely well which has demonstrated its usefulness and reliability time after time after time. If our reasoning were deleterious we wouldve been weeded out of existence. It's that simple.


    Furthermore you are asking a loaded question by having us justify human reasoning without using human reasoning. For an explanation to be reasonable, it must necessarily be constructed in accordance to rationality!

    Its like asking "why is the law legal?" You're using tautologies
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  6. #156
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    Originally Posted by PlasticJanus View Post
    I also already addressed this. Human reasoning is not an argument. It doesn't make sense to ask whether or not it is valid.
    of course it does. your very act of arguing with me presupposes this concept. whether it is valid or not is of utmost importance. if it is valid, it produces correct reasoning. if it doesnt it, produce incorrect reasoning. how do you determine whether human reasoning is valid or not?
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    Originally Posted by magog704 View Post
    i would never be upset that you take issue with the last 150 years of western philosophical inquiry. that's your prerogative.

    people say way dumber shiit than you, like the earth is 5000 years old. if i took issue with every ignorant thing i heard i wouldnt make it through the day.
    youre being a clever silly here. why denounce to concept of truth, then expect me to take what you say as being true. doesnt make sense to me.
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    Originally Posted by blablablah View Post
    youre being a clever silly here. why denounce to concept of truth, then expect me to take what you say as being true. doesnt make sense to me.
    i denounce the concept of Truth, not the concept of truth.

    help yourself to some cotdayum aristotle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristot..._of_universals
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    Originally Posted by lucious View Post
    We can show that it works!

    Our reasoning is valid because it is an evolutionary adaptation which served us extremely well which has demonstrated its usefulness and reliability time after time after time. If our reasoning were deleterious we wouldve been weeded out of existence. It's that simple.


    Furthermore you are asking a loaded question by having us justify human reasoning without using human reasoning. For an explanation to be reasonable, it must necessarily be constructed in accordance to rationality!

    Its like asking "why is the law legal?" You're using tautologies
    again, this is circular reasoning. human reason is valid because we determined it is, using human reason. its called a fallacious argument.

    i asked you to justify human reason because you cant. its a concept you can only take on faith. what it was meant to do was illustrate your reliance on unprovable metaphysical constructs.
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  10. #160
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    Originally Posted by blablablah View Post
    of course it does. your very act of arguing with me presupposes this concept. whether it is valid or not is of utmost importance. if it is valid, it produces correct reasoning. if it doesnt it, produce incorrect reasoning. how do you determine whether human reasoning is valid or not?
    You're confusing validity for reliability. Arguments have validity; methods have reliability. Human reasoning is a method, not an argument.

    Furthermore, whether or not human reasoning is reliable is irrelevant here, because the truth of a proposition is, as you yourself have conceded, entirely external to human reasoning. The reliability of human reasoning becomes a factor only when we try to reason using the absolute truths that correspondence gets us, and this happens after your worries about an ultimate source of truth have been debunked.
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  11. #161
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    Originally Posted by magog704 View Post
    i denounce the concept of Truth, not the concept of truth.

    help yourself to some cotdayum aristotle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristot..._of_universals
    so when i am talking to you does the concept of Truth apply to you or not?
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    Originally Posted by blablablah View Post
    so when i am talking to you does the concept of Truth apply to you or not?
    there is no universal Truth. we can talk about things that are "true" based on justification.

    i have this problem all the time. if You haven't picked up a book by a postmodernist, then we literally can't have this conversation, because we don't even compatible lexicons.
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    Originally Posted by PlasticJanus View Post
    You're confusing validity for reliability. Arguments have validity; methods have reliability. Human reasoning is a method, not an argument.

    Furthermore, whether or not human reasoning is reliable is irrelevant here, because the truth of a proposition is, as you yourself have conceded, entirely external to human reasoning. The reliability of human reasoning becomes a factor only when we try to reason using the absolute truths that correspondence gets us, and this happens after your worries about an ultimate source of truth have been debunked.
    could you give me an example of an absolute truth derived from correspondence?
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  14. #164
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    Originally Posted by magog704 View Post
    there is no universal Truth. we can talk about things that are "true" based on justification.

    i have this problem all the time. if You haven't picked up a book by a postmodernist, then we literally can't have this conversation, because we don't even compatible lexicons.
    that seems reasonable to me
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    Ive heard this argument before OP. Basically, it means that the only reason to trust our reasoning is it came from the divine, otherwise theres no reason to think we know anything at all since we're just advanced apes basically.

    Bottom line is this, there is no empirical reason to believe in god, such that if the idea was never suggested to you its highly unlikely you would grow to believe it on your own or even consider it. anythings possible though
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  17. #167
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  18. #168
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    Originally Posted by jayohthatman View Post
    Ive heard this argument before OP. Basically, it means that the only reason to trust our reasoning is it came from the divine, otherwise theres no reason to think we know anything at all since we're just advanced apes basically.

    Bottom line is this, there is no empirical reason to believe in god, such that if the idea was never suggested to you its highly unlikely you would grow to believe it on your own or even consider it. anythings possible though
    empiricism does not interest me
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    Originally Posted by blablablah View Post
    empiricism does not interest me
    me either.

    “I do not believe in God and I am not an atheist.”
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    Originally Posted by blablablah View Post
    could you give me an example of an absolute truth derived from correspondence?
    I could, but let's not kid ourselves by pretending it would advance the argument. It doesn't matter which truth I suggest, you will simply raise one of two objections: either that it is not absolute because my knowledge of it is subjective or that I can't reason that it's absolute because I've yet to establish the reliability of human reason.

    Neither of those two objections changes the fact that, as per correspondence, truths can exist in the absence of an ultimate source of truth.
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    Originally Posted by jayohthatman View Post
    Ive heard this argument before OP. Basically, it means that the only reason to trust our reasoning is it came from the divine, otherwise theres no reason to think we know anything at all since we're just advanced apes basically.

    Bottom line is this, there is no empirical reason to believe in god, such that if the idea was never suggested to you its highly unlikely you would grow to believe it on your own or even consider it. anythings possible though
    Yeah its a last ditch attempt to try and squeeze God in somewhere. Given a fair argument, its hard to win, so lets remove a pair of goalposts.

    Its essentially a repackaging of Platingas argument against naturalism which falls into PRATT(previously refuted a thousand times)
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    Originally Posted by PlasticJanus View Post
    I could, but let's not kid ourselves by pretending it would advance the argument. It doesn't matter which truth I suggest, you will simply raise one of two objections: either that it is not absolute because my knowledge of it is subjective or that I can't reason that it's absolute because I've yet to establish the reliability of human reason.

    Neither of those two objections changes the fact that, as per correspondence, truths can exist in the absence of an ultimate source of truth.
    false and false.

    i dont know if we will either benefit from continuing this argument, although if you wish to continue, i will tomorrow
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    Originally Posted by blablablah View Post
    false and false.

    i dont know if we will either benefit from continuing this argument, although if you wish to continue, i will tomorrow
    I don't know what you're referencing when you say "false and false." Because I essentially made two claims: that I could suggest an absolute truth according to correspondence and that the two aforementioned objections do not change that. Both claims are true.
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    And not a single reply to my post on the impact of subjectivity was posted that day...
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  27. #177
    Squatting4thewin SQTFTW's Avatar
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    gtfo OP. not reading tht ****.
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  28. #178
    Registered User TheBarbellTolls's Avatar
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    did **** just get real?
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  29. #179
    On the path of increase. stimjunkie's Avatar
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    stimjunkie is offline
    OP I don't think you comprehend that your arguments/questions have been answered by many posters in this thread.
    You are continuing to talk in circles forcing other people to repeat what they have said to you on the first page...
    I think you should re-read the whole thread, take a step back and analyze deeply what other people have posted.
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  30. #180
    Registered User samw93's Avatar
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    believe if you wish but it has no reason to be in everyday life, as not everyone agrees and it is personal opinion. why feel the need to prove your existence?
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