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  1. #31
    Big Bulkin' antihero's Avatar
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    They will continue to update and amend the policy annually, as new ingredients become widely used and available.
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  2. #32
    Banned zac20133's Avatar
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    Curious is DAA banned (D-Aspartic acid)? I thought I was all natural but that Hemo Rage just failed me...LOL
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  3. #33
    interact with me PinchTheBear's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 44bulldog View Post
    Do you have any idea how long it would take for PEA and it's metabolites to not be able to be detected?
    It depends on the metabolite and the user's condition (e.g. urine pH, GFR, stomach pH when taken).

    Originally Posted by 44bulldog View Post
    Would an athlete be safe ~2 hours after supplementing with PEA (assuming PEA is even something that could cause a failed drug test)?
    If he or she has urinated (the more frequently the better) during those 2 hours there presumably wouldn't be an issue.
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  4. #34
    Athlete 44bulldog's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by zac20133 View Post
    Curious is DAA banned (D-Aspartic acid)? I thought I was all natural but that Hemo Rage just failed me...LOL
    DAA is fine. From my understanding, as long as your testosterone levels do not exceed the 6:1 ratio that Hawks58 talked about (on the last page) you will be fine. If for some reason DAA made your test levels exceed the 6:1 ratio I would GUESS that they would test your urine to find out why it exceeded the 6:1 ratio, instead of busting you right away. I would then GUESS that they would find that the 6:1 ratio was exceeded naturally, as DAA is natural, and then I would GUESS that you would be fine.

    I have no idea if DAA could cause someone to exceed the 6:1 ratio.

    As antihero stated on the last page, the reason the NCAA regulations suck so bad is that everything is left to pretty much guessing.

    You're still considered natty bro. 1,3D is just banned by the NCAA. It doesn't mean you're not natty.

    Originally Posted by PinchTheBear View Post
    It depends on the metabolite and the user's condition (e.g. urine pH, GFR, stomach pH when taken).

    If he or she has urinated (the more frequently the better) during those 2 hours there presumably wouldn't be an issue.
    After hearing both you and antihero say that you think PEA is fine, I will not add it to the list unless we hear something different.
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  5. #35
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    6:1 is pretty high though!! That is 600% more testosterone than the average male!
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  6. #36
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    I played D-1 and I think the NCAA has kind of gone overboard with the whole supplement cases and testing....It's really getting out of control
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  7. #37
    Veritas. Aequitas. neuron's Avatar
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    You can test for PEA, but I'm not sure why anyone would since it is a natural metabolite of phenylalanine, a common amino acid. It's also rapidly metabolized and so the testing would have to be done within minutes of PEA administration.
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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by 44bulldog View Post
    If antihero was correct in saying that the half-life of PEA is only 5-10 minutes would that mean that it would not be detectable in urine after 10 minutes? For example if someone were to use Craze (or any sup with PEA) before an athletic event and they would not be tested until after the event (~2 hours later) then would the PEA still be able to be detected?
    PEA's half-life is 5-10 minutes.

    So if we say PEA's half-life is 10 minutes, then 50% would be removed at the 10 minute mark.

    After 2 half lives (20 minutes), 75% would be removed.

    After 3 half lives (30 minutes), 12.5% of the original dose would remain. And so on.

    The biggest factor is the original dose and the detection limit on the instrument you are using to run the test.

    Most testing devices have a low sensitivity, but high specificity (unless we're talking olympic testing).

    And so, the run-of-the-mill non-invasive testing "mechanisms" probably won't be able to detect PEA after 1 or 2 high lives.
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  9. #39
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    Originally Posted by 32lax View Post
    now it appears it is, they've decided it's chemically related to tuaminoheptane? Are they going to come up with a consistent policy or just keep making it up as they go along?
    1,3-DMAA is highly related to tuaminoheptane; both in structure and function.

    1,3-DMAA: http://hightowerpharmacology.blogspo...amylamine.html
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  10. #40
    Athlete 44bulldog's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by neuron View Post
    PEA's half-life is 5-10 minutes.

    So if we say PEA's half-life is 10 minutes, then 50% would be removed at the 10 minute mark.

    After 2 half lives (20 minutes), 75% would be removed.

    After 3 half lives (30 minutes), 12.5% of the original dose would remain. And so on.

    The biggest factor is the original dose and the detection limit on the instrument you are using to run the test.

    Most testing devices have a low sensitivity, but high specificity (unless we're talking olympic testing).

    And so, the run-of-the-mill non-invasive testing "mechanisms" probably won't be able to detect PEA after 1 or 2 high lives.

    So even if we were to assume PEA was banned (which at this point it really seems that it is not banned) it would be very hard to even detect.

    No need to add PEA to the list then. Thank you neuron.
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by antihero View Post
    I agree with you 100% on this and I wrote a final exam paper on it for one of my sports nutrition classes a while ago.

    The NCAA does an absolutely piss poor job with the list and I'm honestly astounded that more people aren't disqualified every year because of it.
    Really? Its pretty clear that the NCAA doesnt do any testing at all. The amount of drugs pumped into these kids is astounding. Gotta win the conference at all costs.
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  12. #42
    Registered User Hawks58's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Amoral View Post
    Really? Its pretty clear that the NCAA doesnt do any testing at all. The amount of drugs pumped into these kids is astounding. Gotta win the conference at all costs.


    I mean it's like this, skip to 3:30 for Arnold talking about testing in bb competitions. But it is still good info to know. It's like I know I could probably take AAS with my job but that risk isn't worth it to me.

    /done taking off track. Reps to bulldog, don't know why mods didn't rep ya.
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  13. #43
    Muscle Man Manuel D3Baseball's Avatar
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    I don't see why DAA or any natty test booster would raise the test:epitest ratio?
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  14. #44
    interact with me PinchTheBear's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    I don't see why DAA or any natty test booster would raise the test:epitest ratio?
    It wouldn't. Testosterone synthesized endogenously is subject to epimerization, unlike exogenous test.
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  15. #45
    Athlete 44bulldog's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Amoral View Post
    Really? Its pretty clear that the NCAA doesnt do any testing at all. The amount of drugs pumped into these kids is astounding. Gotta win the conference at all costs.
    Really? That's funny, because I know people who have been tested by the NCAA.

    Look at the link I posted in the very first post on this page. I'm sure there are many more stories like that out there if you search around.

    Originally Posted by Hawks58 View Post

    Reps to bulldog, don't know why mods didn't rep ya.
    Haha, they did. Feelsgoodman.

    Originally Posted by PinchTheBear View Post
    It wouldn't. Testosterone synthesized endogenously is subject to epimerization, unlike exogenous test.
    It would be great if you could keep popping in here every once in awhile just to clear stuff up like that.
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  16. #46
    Big Bulkin' antihero's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    I don't see why DAA or any natty test booster would raise the test:epitest ratio?
    It won't. The only way to raise testosterone independent of epitestosterone is by providing exogenous testosterone to the body.
    Last edited by antihero; 01-04-2012 at 04:09 PM.
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  17. #47
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    great thread. 5 stars
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  18. #48
    I warm up with your max DatDude25's Avatar
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    Great thread, i agree some of the regulations are a bit obscure and the fact they give really vague guidelines is terrible. But from what i've read its pretty hard to fail for caffeine theres no real evidence as to how much caffeine will dilute your urine to over the banned limit but caffeine generally stays in your body for roughly 6 hours and no more then a day so you'd have to consume a good deal of caffeine that morning and most places are supposed to give a day notice (not all do)

    From what i've noticed atleast at my school is generally the newcomers get tested first, unless you make it to a NCAA sanctioned event like nationals. And atleast at my school they generally only test for street drugs as i've been here a year and a half and only know on occasion people being steroid tested.

    That drugfreerec site is pretty solid, but they too give real generalized answers they'll mention something about caffeine then not go indepth on really anything. I wish there was more research on how long certain supplements stay in your system and actually what will get you to test positive.
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  19. #49
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    Originally Posted by antihero View Post
    It won't. The only way to raise testosterone independent of epitestosterone is by providing exogenous testosterone to the body.
    It would be great if you could continue to pop in every once in awhile too, if you can, just to help out. You and Pinch are much more knowledgeable than myself.

    Originally Posted by XShreddedX View Post
    great thread. 5 stars
    Thank you.

    Originally Posted by DatDude25 View Post
    Great thread, i agree some of the regulations are a bit obscure and the fact they give really vague guidelines is terrible. But from what i've read its pretty hard to fail for caffeine theres no real evidence as to how much caffeine will dilute your urine to over the banned limit but caffeine generally stays in your body for roughly 6 hours and no more then a day so you'd have to consume a good deal of caffeine that morning and most places are supposed to give a day notice (not all do)

    From what i've noticed atleast at my school is generally the newcomers get tested first, unless you make it to a NCAA sanctioned event like nationals. And atleast at my school they generally only test for street drugs as i've been here a year and a half and only know on occasion people being steroid tested.

    That drugfreerec site is pretty solid, but they too give real generalized answers they'll mention something about caffeine then not go indepth on really anything. I wish there was more research on how long certain supplements stay in your system and actually what will get you to test positive.
    Thank you.

    I would trust that the caffeine information I posted in the OP is correct and if you did your own calculations you would find that number to be accurate. It was from a review done by the International Society of Sports Nutrition.
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  20. #50
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    I've heard that NCAA athletes must avoid all Beast Sports Nutrition supplements

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  21. #51
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    Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    I've heard that NCAA athletes must avoid all Beast Sports Nutrition supplements

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    Haha nope, they should just avoid 2 Shredded as it contains Synephrine. Everything else in our line is good to go.
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  22. #52
    Big Bulkin' antihero's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 44bulldog View Post
    It would be great if you could continue to pop in every once in awhile too, if you can, just to help out. You and Pinch are much more knowledgeable than myself.
    I plan on it. This is a conversation and topic that is something I've discussed with a few professors and trainers at the college.
    I'm just here for the gangbang.
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    NpNg. Let's train diguincoutoreis's Avatar
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    Good thread.
    ~ GrowUpOrDieTryin'
    "For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.
    This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance." 1 Timothy 4:8-10
    "Or don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body." 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
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    You should be fine with PEA as it is eliminated quite quickly.

    EDIT: Fack I'm late
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    Originally Posted by neuron View Post
    You can test for PEA, but I'm not sure why anyone would since it is a natural metabolite of phenylalanine, a common amino acid. It's also rapidly metabolized and so the testing would have to be done within minutes of PEA administration.
    Good point sir.
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    Originally Posted by neuron View Post
    1,3-DMAA is highly related to tuaminoheptane; both in structure and function.

    1,3-DMAA: http://hightowerpharmacology.blogspo...amylamine.html
    yeah, that link makes a pretty good case.

    but because of its half life, as long as you don't take it the day of the test you should be good, right? it would be fine as a preworkout then. lots of NCAA athletes use jacked....
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    Originally Posted by 32lax View Post
    yeah, that link makes a pretty good case.

    but because of its half life, as long as you don't take it the day of the test you should be good, right? it would be fine as a preworkout then. lots of NCAA athletes use jacked....
    Yes, but why even risk it? What if the athlete does not know when they will be tested? There are many preworkouts out there that don't contain 1,3D and will do just as much, if not more, for you than Jack3d.

    I was never a fan of 1,3D.

    If for whatever reason an athlete decides to use a product with 1,3D (I strongly advise any NCAA athletes not to) just please do not use it before an event/game which you may be tested after.
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    Originally Posted by 44bulldog View Post
    Yes, but why even risk it? What if the athlete does not know when they will be tested? There are many preworkouts out there that don't contain 1,3D and will do just as much, if not more, for you than Jack3d.

    I was never a fan of 1,3D.

    If for whatever reason an athlete decides to use a product with 1,3D (I strongly advise any NCAA athletes not to) just please do not use it before an event/game which you may be tested after.
    i agree, i like other preworkouts more, but for almost all ncaa athletes there's no risk of a test anytime other than immediately after a game, and even then its basically only playoffs.

    so dont worry if you use it to workout in the offseason.
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    Originally Posted by 32lax View Post
    i agree, i like other preworkouts more, but for almost all ncaa athletes there's no risk of a test anytime other than immediately after a game, and even then its basically only playoffs.

    so dont worry if you use it to workout in the offseason.
    Some schools test their student-athletes year round or whenever they randomly feel like it.

    I still wouldn't recommend for any NCAA student-athletes to use Jack3d (or any other supplement with a banned substance). I just don't think it's worth the risk when there are so many other safe products out there.
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    Originally Posted by 44bulldog View Post
    Some schools test their student-athletes year round or whenever they randomly feel like it.

    I still wouldn't recommend for any NCAA student-athletes to use Jack3d (or any other supplement with a banned substance). I just don't think it's worth the risk when there are so many other safe products out there.
    Excellent point. Some (not many) universities do their own testing throughout the season or off-season and the athletes are held to the same NCAA regulations (although some universities have more rigid substance regulations than the NCAA).
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