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  1. #1
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    Egyptian Sheikh issues fatwa prohibiting votes for Christian or secular candidates

    http://bikyamasr.com/46991/egyptian-...ar-candidates/

    Mohammad Amer, a Salafi Sheikh in Damanhur, Egypt, issued a fatwa prohibiting votes for any Christian, secular or liberal candidate, as well as any Muslim candidate who does not pray daily or call for the implementation of Shariah law.

    The fatwa also prohibited voting for any former member of the dissolved National Democratic Party (NDP), associated with the regime of deposed President Hosni Mubarak, with the exception of a few “honorable” candidates.

    Amer claimed that voting for any such candidate would constitute a grave sin.
    Will be fascinating to see how this turns out.
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    Originally Posted by ZenBowman View Post
    http://bikyamasr.com/46991/egyptian-...ar-candidates/



    Will be fascinating to see how this turns out.
    His demand bears a striking resemblance to cross-trainer's amusing trolling threads.
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  3. #3
    Registered User Alchem's Avatar
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    That shiekhs fatwa holds no weight. A fatwa is religious opinion, not everyone is allowed to issue fatwas only qualified scholars can, and even then their fatwa has to be backed by evidence.
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    You should have highlighted "Salafi" as well. He makes the Muslim Brotherhood look like GLAAD.
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    Originally Posted by Alchem View Post
    That shiekhs fatwa holds no weight. A fatwa is religious opinion, not everyone is allowed to issue fatwas only qualified scholars can, and even then their fatwa has to be backed by evidence.
    His fatwa has more than enough evidence to back it.

    To vote for a non-Muslim leader in a Muslim country would be a sin. Are you really gonna try deny this? Then again, you're 18. I doubt you know much of the world, never mind religion.
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    Originally Posted by Alchem View Post
    That shiekhs fatwa holds no weight. A fatwa is religious opinion, not everyone is allowed to issue fatwas only qualified scholars can, and even then their fatwa has to be backed by evidence.
    Read the post above, Muslims are forbidden to have a non-Muslim as their leader in a Muslim country. Check with SK to confirm.
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    Originally Posted by makavelli1988 View Post
    His fatwa has more than enough evidence to back it.

    To vote for a non-Muslim leader in a Muslim country would be a sin. Are you really gonna try deny this? Then again, you're 18. I doubt you know much of the world, never mind religion.
    Meh, I suspect people who disagree with him will claim BS on his fatwa and people who agree with him will say the opposite.

    It will probably have very little bearing on anything.
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  8. #8
    Registered User Alchem's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by makavelli1988 View Post
    His fatwa has more than enough evidence to back it.

    To vote for a non-Muslim leader in a Muslim country would be a sin. Are you really gonna try deny this? Then again, you're 18. I doubt you know much of the world, never mind religion.
    Originally Posted by ZenBowman View Post
    Read the post above, Muslims are forbidden to have a non-Muslim as their leader in a Muslim country. Check with SK to confirm.
    Provide evidence for that, either way it's an oxymoron.
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  9. #9
    smells like Hoppe's #9 cavymeister's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ZenBowman View Post
    Read the post above, Muslims are forbidden to have a non-Muslim as their leader in a Muslim country. Check with SK to confirm.
    What denotes a muslim country?
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    Originally Posted by Alchem View Post
    Provide evidence for that, either way it's an oxymoron.
    No, it isn't.

    Originally Posted by cavymeister View Post
    What denotes a muslim country?
    Majority Muslim population, historical dominance of Islam in the country. According to SK it is any land that is currently or was once ruled by Muslims.
    When all that says 'it is good' has been debunked, what says 'I want' remains.

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  11. #11
    smells like Hoppe's #9 cavymeister's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ZenBowman View Post
    No, it isn't.



    Majority Muslim population, historical dominance of Islam in the country. According to SK it is any land that is currently or was once ruled by Muslims.
    So I guess that means the US is a muslim country?

    trollface.png


    srs, though, what is the SK?
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  12. #12
    Registered User Alchem's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ZenBowman View Post
    No, it isn't.
    What I meant to say is that no christian will ever win president in 70% Muslim country anyway, with or without a fatwa.

    Also provide evidence for you original claim " Muslims are forbidden to have a non-Muslim as their leader in a Muslim country." I am honestly curious about that.
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  13. #13
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    Originally Posted by Alchem View Post
    That shiekhs fatwa holds no weight. A fatwa is religious opinion, not everyone is allowed to issue fatwas only qualified scholars can, and even then their fatwa has to be backed by evidence.
    Moronic.
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    Originally Posted by cavymeister View Post
    What denotes a muslim country?
    Zen is correct.

    In islam only islam is the accepted law and legit rule.
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    Originally Posted by Alchem View Post
    What I meant to say is that no christian will ever win president in 70% Muslim country anyway, with or without a fatwa.

    Also provide evidence for you original claim " Muslims are forbidden to have a non-Muslim as their leader in a Muslim country." I am honestly curious about that.
    So you confirm that people will be biased against non-Muslims, thus actually validating what the Sheikh said.
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    Originally Posted by cavymeister View Post
    srs, though, what is the SK?
    SYRIANKID, esteemed poster. He is one of the few honest posters on here.
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    Originally Posted by frasersteen View Post
    Meh, I suspect people who disagree with him will claim BS on his fatwa and people who agree with him will say the opposite.

    It will probably have very little bearing on anything.
    Here lies is the reason why age old religions still exist.....Cherry picking. Since Sunni Islam has no real authoritative figure, many people pop up with fatwas, most Muslims do not care for the authority the fatwa giver holds, rather they go with the fatwa they agree or want.

    Originally Posted by Alchem View Post
    Provide evidence for that, either way it's an oxymoron.
    Originally Posted by Alchem View Post
    What I meant to say is that no christian will ever win president in 70% Muslim country anyway, with or without a fatwa.

    Also provide evidence for you original claim " Muslims are forbidden to have a non-Muslim as their leader in a Muslim country." I am honestly curious about that.
    As part of the deen and as a Muslim, it is your duty to know as much about Islam as you can. Not only that, you should know that asking a kaffir for questions about Islam is a no no. I'm not gonna do your homework for you. Go ask SK if you have to. To vote for a non-Muslim in a Muslim country is considered an act of kufr. It is essentially choosing a greater authority than the Quran and Allah's authority. This is a form of shirk.
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  18. #18
    Registered User Alchem's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ZenBowman View Post
    So you confirm that people will be biased against non-Muslims, thus actually validating what the Sheikh said.
    umm what? it's like how Americans will never vote for a muslim president, doesn't have to do with any religious ruling.

    Originally Posted by makavelli1988 View Post
    As part of the deen and as a Muslim, it is your duty to know as much about Islam as you can. Not only that, you should know that asking a kaffir for questions about Islam is a no no. I'm not gonna do your homework for you. Go ask SK if you have to. To vote for a non-Muslim in a Muslim country is considered an act of kufr. It is essentially choosing a greater authority than the Quran and Allah's authority. This is a form of shirk.
    Please provide evidence from the Quran or the Sunnah, don't try to escape that, you made a claim, provide evidence for it. And authority of the Quran and Allah is still reserved in the constitution itself, doesn't matter if the president is a Muslim or not.
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    Originally Posted by Alchem View Post
    umm what? it's like how Americans will never vote for a muslim president, doesn't have to do with any religious ruling.
    Just because something looks the same doesn't mean it is the same thing.

    Americans are skeptical of religion because they worry it's craziness. For instance, we have a mormon guy who wants to be president and people are instantly curious what mormons believe about life, and when they find out, they aren't too sure he's sane and can be trusted. I jewish guy tried a run awhile ago and that's not going to happen because people know what jews are about and the same goes for muslims.

    Even when Obama ran he was called into question because the minister he would listen too tended toward statements that seemed to come from him more than traditional christian messages which are deemed sane by most people.

    Meanwhile, islam is a hate group disguised as a religion and it's just blind policy to reject all outsiders no matter how rational and excellent their ideas.
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    Originally Posted by Alchem View Post
    Please provide evidence from the Quran or the Sunnah, don't try to escape that, you made a claim, provide evidence for it. And authority of the Quran and Allah is still reserved in the constitution itself, doesn't matter if the president is a Muslim or not.
    There's an Ask About Islam Thread. Ask this question to a person who cares enough to have done all the research you can't be bothered to do in the religion you claim to believe. That is SK in case you haven't noticed. Me and Zen will await your embarrassment.

    If you genuinely want to know, as you claim you do, you should take this step. I will not spend an hour looking through fatwas, hadiths and ayahs to humour your lack of knowledge about your deen. This question has been asked of SK before, so it won't take him long to give you all the details.
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    Originally Posted by ZenBowman View Post
    Read the post above, Muslims are forbidden to have a non-Muslim as their leader in a Muslim country. Check with SK to confirm.
    Ironic brah, cos Egypt had a Coptic head of state a full hundred years before the U.S. even had its black President haha
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    Originally Posted by LostInTheKHole View Post
    Ironic brah, cos Egypt had a Coptic head of state a full hundred years before the U.S. even had its black President haha
    Yes, thankfully most Muslims do not follow the Quran literally.

    But those who do are much like the extremist Christians in the US. Anybody who follows these types of religions seriously is usually completely intolerant and fascist.
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    With or without the fatwa ... no one other than a muslim will preside of Egypt ... muslims aren't going to vote for christians etc
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    Originally Posted by ZenBowman View Post
    Yes, thankfully most Muslims do not follow the Quran literally.

    But those who do are much like the extremist Christians in the US. Anybody who follows these types of religions seriously is usually completely intolerant and fascist.
    I can't fault fundamentalists, at least they're intellectually honest... since there's no New Testament in islam to justify cherry picking positions the only true follower of the faith is a literal one.

    that's why I can respect SK even though I think most of his positions are insane.
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    Originally Posted by Halfway View Post
    I can't fault fundamentalists, at least they're intellectually honest... since there's no New Testament in islam to justify cherry picking positions the only true follower of the faith is a literal one.

    that's why I can respect SK even though I think most of his positions are insane.
    Well, the thing is that he always selects the most conservative (non-extremist) of the literal interpretations. So only a few of his positions are insane, most of them are reasonable, he is someone I could get along with IRL.

    He also doesn't suffer from an extreme victim complex unlike many other folks on this board.
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    Originally Posted by ZenBowman View Post
    Well, the thing is that he always selects the most conservative (non-extremist) of the literal interpretations. So only a few of his positions are insane, most of them are reasonable, he is someone I could get along with IRL.

    He also doesn't suffer from an extreme victim complex unlike many other folks on this board.
    It makes me a little paranoid knowing that the fundamentalists are the intellectually honest ones (I agree with this too)

    For instance before doing research, most Muslims I knew didn't believe that apostates should be executed, adulterers should be stoned and would maintain this view even now. Yet when I did research, it was quite clear that this is was the case and the fundamentalists aren't just saying it because "they're crazy / primates", it's because that's what it actually says.

    So either, we face insane people telling the truth, or decent individuals who are not really representing their religion properly

    It goes for most major religions, but the fact is a far greater proportion of fundamentalists exist in Islam.
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    Originally Posted by ZenBowman View Post
    Yes, thankfully most Muslims do not follow the Quran literally.

    But those who do are much like the extremist Christians in the US. Anybody who follows these types of religions seriously is usually completely intolerant and fascist.
    If Muslims did follow the Quran properly, their Image wouldn't be as bad as it is today.

    You might be mistaking the Quran with the Sunna and/or what those bearded retards say on tv. Quran is just full of stories, a guide on how to behave, and some other rules/regulations, that if still done properly, would make every single Arab country better. But whatever.

    ps: You didn't mention the guy is Salafi.. and even if it wasn't posted. Those aren't even considered Muslims by most Muslims.. their views are skewed and insane.
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    Originally Posted by makavelli1988 View Post
    There's an Ask About Islam Thread. Ask this question to a person who cares enough to have done all the research you can't be bothered to do in the religion you claim to believe. That is SK in case you haven't noticed. Me and Zen will await your embarrassment.

    If you genuinely want to know, as you claim you do, you should take this step. I will not spend an hour looking through fatwas, hadiths and ayahs to humour your lack of knowledge about your deen. This question has been asked of SK before, so it won't take him long to give you all the details.
    I'm pretty sure SK was talking about a certain context, only authority in Islam is the Quran or the Sunnah, or if it is something prescribed then the majority of sunni scholars must agree on it, so either provide evidence for your claim or point to me the SKs post, were I can see if he presented evidence or not, and don't act like you understand Islam more than me, I've seen you post alleged contradictions and other common misconceptions which can be refuted by a 10 year old.
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    Originally Posted by Xinroth View Post
    If Muslims did follow the Quran properly, their Image wouldn't be as bad as it is today.

    You might be mistaking the Quran with the Sunna and/or what those bearded retards say on tv. Quran is just full of stories, a guide on how to behave, and some other rules/regulations, that if still done properly, would make every single Arab country better. But whatever.
    Surah 3:32 "Obey God and His messenger"

    Way to downplay the Sunnah. These are the habits, sayings and practices of the Prophet. Since he is the best example ever for Muslims, the sunnah of the Prophet is only second to the Quran itself. If it were not for the Sunnah, you would not even know how to pray.

    And you cannot be serious with the claim Salafis are not considered Muslim. Lol @ skewed and insane. The Salafis are pretty much the Muslim version of the Puritans. Since Salafis follow a much more literal interpretation of the Quran, maybe it isn't them that's skewed and insane...hmmm?

    The only Salafis that there is any dispute over being "Muslims" are the Qutubi jihadist Salafis. Even then, it's a stretch to claim their not Muslim. So from your post so far, it's pretty obvious to discard most of your comments on Islam.

    Originally Posted by Alchem View Post
    I've seen you post alleged contradictions and other common misconceptions which can be refuted by a 10 year old.
    It was amusing to see you struggle to refute them.
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    Alchem: Since you clearly don't care about Islam enough to research yourself, i'll help you. There's even more that handles this specific issue, but this should suffice. It's isn't acceptable to vote for a non-Muslim in a non-Muslim country. What on earth made you think it's OK in a Muslim country?

    Originally Posted by SYRIANKID View Post
    As-Salaamu aleikum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatahu
    Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem
    Allahuma Salli 'ala Muhammad wa 'ala aalihi wa sahbihi ajma'een wa sallim


    To vote for someone is to give them a pledge of support and to share in the virtue or sin of their cause.

    I would never vote for anyone who openly states he will govern by social, legal, or fiscal policies that contradict religion.

    Whoever joins himself in a good cause shall have a share of it, and whoever joins himself in an evil cause shall have the responsibility of it, and God controls all things. [Qur'an 4:85]

    The Prophet (pbuh) said:

    Whoever starts a good thing and is followed by others, will have his own reward and a reward equal to that of those who follow him, without it detracting from their reward in any way. Whoever starts a bad thing and is followed by others, will bear the burden of his own sin and a burden equal to that of those who follow him, without it detracting from their burden in any way [Muslim, Nasai, Tirmidhi]

    Jazakum Allah Khair
    Barak Allah Feekum
    W'as-Salaamu aleikum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatahu
    Originally Posted by SYRIANKID View Post
    As-Salaamu aleikum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatahu
    Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem
    Allahuma Salli 'ala Muhammad wa 'ala aalihi wa sahbihi ajma'een wa sallim


    When you vote for someone, you are empowering him to make decisions on your behalf, according to his political platform/agenda.

    So sure, you can vote for someone because he has some policies you think are useful to you, as long as when you die you are willing to share in the sins of the rest of their agenda.

    By not empowering sins, you are not being passive. But even if that's how you view it, it is better to be passive than to accrue sins.

    Imam Ahmad and Al-Hakim narrated on the authority of Abu Hurayra that the Messenger (pbuh) said in a Sahih Hadith:

    A time will come on people when a person will be given a choice between incapacity and corruption. If that time falls upon you, then choose incapacity over corruption

    Aisha (may God be pleased with her) said: Whenever the Prophet (pbuh) was given a choice between two things, he always chose the one that was simple, if it did not lead to any type of sin. [Tirmidhi]

    Jazakum Allah Khair
    Barak Allah Feekum
    W'as-Salaamu aleikum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatahu
    Originally Posted by SYRIANKID View Post
    As-Salaamu aleikum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatahu
    Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem
    Allahuma Salli 'ala Muhammad wa 'ala aalihi wa sahbihi ajma'een wa sallim


    From my experiences on this issue, I've found that most pious scholars who follow the Classical tradition are against voting while most of the modernist, wishy-washy scholars are in favor of voting.

    I don't think the debate even needs to go as far as accusations of haram/shirk. It is true that when a Muslim is forced to choose among several evils, he should choose the least evil choice. So if it was an obligation to vote, it would be necessary to choose the candidate who was the least faasiq (flagrant open sinner e.g. nobody who is an open atheist or homosexual) and who is least harmful in his policies towards the rights of Muslims.

    But in most cases, we are not at the point where we have to vote. The least of the evils is not to give our pledge to any of the candidates, since they are all either promoting sinful behaviors in society OR standing against Muslims and their rights or promoting xenophobia against them.

    When you vote for someone, you are giving them authority to make decisions on your behalf, knowing their beliefs and agenda. That means God will hold you accountable for your pledge, and you will earn a share of all the good and evil decisions they make. That's why giving your pledge is a serious matter. It's not a matter of just voting for the "least harmful" guy, because you are going to take credit for all the positive and negative effects his decisions have on society.

    Another common argument we hear from pro-voters is "if you don't vote, the non-Muslims will have an advantage over you". They already do in many ways - they earn billions of dollars by investing their money in haram accounts that generate interest. Should we do the same so that we can compete with them in these haram platforms as well? No, because we believe that wealth that is less but legitimate is more blessed than plentiful wealth that is cursed due to its origins.

    In the same way, we are not going to "win" in an inherently corrupt system by playing the game of voting for various candidates that are all garbage in one way or another.

    And the most obvious fallacy with pro-voters is that there is never a consensus on who the best candidate to vote for is. The Muslims just agree that they should exercise their right to vote, but they can't even decide who is "least harmful" so they waste their votes by voting against each other. This is a tell-tale sign of poor jurisprudence.

    Jazakum Allah Khair
    Barak Allah Feekum
    W'as-Salaamu aleikum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatahu
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    because gratitude is a burden and revenge a pleasure.
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