CA court: Schools can ban American flag shirts on Cinco de Mayo

[32lax]

If I roll my eyes back any farther, I might lose them into the back of my head, srs.

You guys didn't read the news article, did you? There's no "ban" on wearing the American flag. You are as free as ever to wear your tacky Old Navy flag shirt every single day of the year. What happened here is some school officials asked some children to change their shirts in order to prevent a tense and possibly violent situation from occurring. That's not unreasonable at all, and the court has agreed.

At least JakeWhatever admitted that he doesn't have any idea what Tinker is or how it's relevant. How can we have conversations with people who don't even slightly understand the context?

I think they've gotten that point now. they seem to be arguing over who's mom said who's more retarded or something. the thread died when i posted the case.

[GrokTheCube]

Is it kinda crappy that these kids can't wear flags? I guess so, but the schools is well within its rights to do pretty much anything they want in terms of regulating speech.

[GliAzzuri]

This is ridiculous, not allowed to wear your own nations flag in your own country?


































































































And I'm Canadian.

[roach_coach]

Is it kinda crappy that these kids can't wear flags? I guess so, but the schools is well within it's rights to do pretty much anything they want in terms of regulating speech.

I guess it makes sense, if you get some ultranationalists wearing them and attempting to flamebait into a fight.

[JUSA]

Not in public schools, they don't. In fact, they have very little right to be provocative at all in that setting.

You raise a good point. This is a public school setting and they should have more rigid enforcement of things, as this is a place where youth go to learn first and foremost.

Regardless, banning a harmless act of expression to placate a very wrong and potentially violent backlash (which is probably overstated anyway), to me comes off as the coward's way around this issue. An overly PC solution to a problem which in all honestly probably wasn't much of a problem, anyway. It comes off very strongly as some white liberals being overly sensitive to a minority and reacting like jackasses, to be honest.

I say this coming as someone who is 1/4 Spanish/Latino, who is married to a Mexican woman, has two half-Mexican daughters, speaks not-quite-fluent Spanish, has numerous Mexican friends and acquaintances and who harbors no grudge against Hispanics or even illegal immigrants. Nobody I know who gives two ****s whether someone wore an American flag on Cinco de Mayo, even if it was a veiled minor attempt to steal some of their thunder on one of their holidays.

The thing of it is: BS overly PC "solutions" to non-problems like this to me only infuriate people and make the situation worse. The school should be teaching these kids to be tolerant. If some gringos are pissy about Cinco de Mayo -- they need to nut up and relax and let it go. Likewise, on the very remote chance some angry young Hispanic lad is hot about someone wearing a red white and blue shirt then they need to ****ing grow up and get over that, too. Either way, the school shouldn't get involved unless students on either side of the isle take things too far and go from expressing themselves with harmless ways (words, shirts, etc) and take it to violence. Which, as I've said already and will say again: My ass if anyone would have come to blows over this, anyway.

[JUSA]

Oh noes not FIGHTS! How about you punish the ones that break the rules and threaten other students instead of restricting the freedom of those that are doing things legally such as wearing our nation's flag on their shirt if they see fit?

Right, the courts.....hahahahahaha, because the judicial system is so fair AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Justice isn't blind, the bish has eyes, and a hand out for $$$ and votes.

Let's take both race and Nationalism out of this equation for a second. Let's say jocks start bullying and kicking the asses of nerds for wearing pocket protectors.

Do you ban kids from wearing pocket protectors at pep rallies for the football team because you're worried it might offend and upset the jocks and antagonize them? IMO, **** no. To me, this is kind of what this thing is coming off as, just it's gotten all mixed up and ****ed around because you're dealing with race and Nationalism now.

[Kumquatv1]

Again, I don't see why we just don't have schools require uniforms. I know this goes contrary to a lot of my stances on freedoms but it makes sense to me. Uniforms would lower rates of violence and bullying. You can wear what you want when not in school and have your freedom of expression there.

[NCK MIZ]

Again, I don't see why we just don't have schools require uniforms. I know this goes contrary to a lot of my stances on freedoms but it makes sense to me. Uniforms would lower rates of violence and bullying. You can wear what you want when not in school and have your freedom of expression there.

I agree. If they are going to arbitrarily choose days to semi-enforce a dress code you might as well just go all out. This way no one is ever offended or in danger by dockers and a polo.

[lexinak]

You raise a good point. This is a public school setting and they should have more rigid enforcement of things, as this is a place where youth go to learn first and foremost.

Regardless, banning a harmless act of expression to placate a very wrong and potentially violent backlash (which is probably overstated anyway), to me comes off as the coward's way around this issue. An overly PC solution to a problem which in all honestly probably wasn't much of a problem, anyway. It comes off very strongly as some white liberals being overly sensitive to a minority and reacting like jackasses, to be honest.

I say this coming as someone who is 1/4 Spanish/Latino, who is married to a Mexican woman, has two half-Mexican daughters, speaks not-quite-fluent Spanish, has numerous Mexican friends and acquaintances and who harbors no grudge against Hispanics or even illegal immigrants. Nobody I know who gives two ****s whether someone wore an American flag on Cinco de Mayo, even if it was a veiled minor attempt to steal some of their thunder on one of their holidays.

The thing of it is: BS overly PC "solutions" to non-problems like this to me only infuriate people and make the situation worse. The school should be teaching these kids to be tolerant. If some gringos are pissy about Cinco de Mayo -- they need to nut up and relax and let it go. Likewise, on the very remote chance some angry young Hispanic lad is hot about someone wearing a red white and blue shirt then they need to ****ing grow up and get over that, too. Either way, the school shouldn't get involved unless students on either side of the isle take things too far and go from expressing themselves with harmless ways (words, shirts, etc) and take it to violence. Which, as I've said already and will say again: My ass if anyone would have come to blows over this, anyway.

I don't disagree with you that it's a lousy situation.

However, notasinglefukwasgiven by school officials whether their response was politically correct, cowardly, or anything else you have to offer. Their job is not to be brave in the fight for students' first amendment rights; it's to prevent fights from breaking out at school.

[32lax]

You raise a good point. This is a public school setting and they should have more rigid enforcement of things, as this is a place where youth go to learn first and foremost.

Regardless, banning a harmless act of expression to placate a very wrong and potentially violent backlash (which is probably overstated anyway), to me comes off as the coward's way around this issue. An overly PC solution to a problem which in all honestly probably wasn't much of a problem, anyway. It comes off very strongly as some white liberals being overly sensitive to a minority and reacting like jackasses, to be honest.

read the case.

[JUSA]

I don't disagree with you that it's a lousy situation.

However, notasinglefukwasgiven by school officials whether their response was politically correct, cowardly, or anything else you have to offer. Their job is not to be brave in the fight for students' first amendment rights; it's to prevent fights from breaking out at school.

Okay, but at what cost? When do you draw the line? Placating a violent minority, if there even is one (and there almost assuredly isn't in this case), to me is wrong. Just look at how upset some of the people are in this thread. How far do you think it's going to harmonizing any of the people debating you towards being tolerant towards Hispanics? Nada. It's just pissing them off and quite possibly making some of them have more negative feelings towards them -- which, in the long run, isn't going to stop fighting.

Aside from being, as I said, cowardly, unnecessary and overly PC: this "solution" is also shafting a long-term solution for a short-term one. In fact, it's making the long-term end game even more unobtainable by diving people and not helping to bring them together. You don't see people getting in fights over anyone wearing anything on St. Patrick's Day. To me: the end game should be a society where Hispanics are no different than Italians, Irish, Germans or other minorities who came to this country in the past and helped make it the place it is today. As much as anything, the liberal PC solution to these kinds of things bothers me because so often it has this pissy/pansy knee-jerk overly sensitive reactionary approach to problems that end up just pissing of both sides.

One wonders if it's part of the Democratic Party's grand scheme to divide these minorities in the hopes it can then reach out to them and ensure their votes (which, in the end is all they care about). They set out the liberal agenda, wording it to seem "noble" but knowing it's divisive and they pass out the marching orders through various talking heads and well-meaning people like you lap it up and regurgitate it, wanting to do the right thing but not really looking at the situation as objectively and unattached as you probably should be. Having nothing but disgust and near hatred for both the Democratic and Republican Party, it really does seem like that at times both of them play games like this with issues and people.

[Rambo26]

Sounds like appeasement to me

[32lax]

[/b] Okay, but at what cost? When do you draw the line? Placating a violent minority, if there even is one (and there almost assuredly isn't in this case), to me is wrong. Just look at how upset some of the people are in this thread. How far do you think it's going to harmonizing any of the people debating you towards being tolerant towards Hispanics? Nada. It's just pissing them off and quite possibly making some of them have more negative feelings towards them -- which, in the long run, isn't going to stop fighting.

Aside from being, as I said, cowardly, unnecessary and overly PC: this "solution" is also shafting a long-term solution for a short-term one. In fact, it's making the long-term end game even more unobtainable by diving people and not helping to bring them together. You don't see people getting in fights over anyone wearing anything on St. Patrick's Day. To me: the end game should be a society where Hispanics are no different than Italians, Irish, Germans or other minorities who came to this country in the past and helped make it the place it is today. As much as anything, the liberal PC solution to these kinds of things bothers me because so often it has this pissy/pansy knee-jerk overly sensitive reactionary approach to problems that end up just pissing of both sides.

One wonders if it's part of the Democratic Party's grand scheme to divide these minorities in the hopes it can then reach out to them and ensure their votes (which, in the end is all they care about). They set out the liberal agenda, wording it to seem "noble" but knowing it's divisive and they pass out the marching orders through various talking heads and well-meaning people like you lap it up and regurgitate it, wanting to do the right thing but not really looking at the situation as objectively and unattached as you probably should be. Having nothing but disgust and near hatred for both the Democratic and Republican Party, it really does seem like that at times both of them play games like this with issues and people.

This isn't about Democrat vs. Republican. This isn't about picking a short term solution over a long term one. This isn't about making the R/P tolerant. This is about a school administrator having the benefit of the doubt to do what he felt was necessary to keep the school safe. That is all. He wasn't making a political statement, he wasn't trying to dictate political correctness, he wasn't trying to further the interests of the Democratic party. He was trying to keep the school safe.

Can everyone STOP POSTING before you READ THE CASE?

http://ia600707.us.archive.org/5/ite...28924.67.0.pdf

[lexinak]

[/b] Okay, but at what cost? When do you draw the line? Placating a violent minority, if there even is one (and there almost assuredly isn't in this case), to me is wrong. Just look at how upset some of the people are in this thread. How far do you think it's going to harmonizing any of the people debating you towards being tolerant towards Hispanics? Nada. It's just pissing them off and quite possibly making some of them have more negative feelings towards them -- which, in the long run, isn't going to stop fighting.

Aside from being, as I said, cowardly, unnecessary and overly PC: this "solution" is also shafting a long-term solution for a short-term one. In fact, it's making the long-term end game even more unobtainable by diving people and not helping to bring them together. You don't see people getting in fights over anyone wearing anything on St. Patrick's Day. To me: the end game should be a society where Hispanics are no different than Italians, Irish, Germans or other minorities who came to this country in the past and helped make it the place it is today. As much as anything, the liberal PC solution to these kinds of things bothers me because so often it has this pissy/pansy knee-jerk overly sensitive reactionary approach to problems that end up just pissing of both sides.

One wonders if it's part of the Democratic Party's grand scheme to divide these minorities in the hopes it can then reach out to them and ensure their votes (which, in the end is all they care about). They set out the liberal agenda, wording it to seem "noble" but knowing it's divisive and they pass out the marching orders through various talking heads and well-meaning people like you lap it up and regurgitate it, wanting to do the right thing but not really looking at the situation as objectively and unattached as you probably should be. Having nothing but disgust and near hatred for both the Democratic and Republican Party, it really does seem like that at times both of them play games like this with issues and people.

Aaaaand you're out in left field again.

Maybe we can continue this discussion when you remember that this was a couple pugilistic kids being asked to turn their shirts inside out or go home and change one day at school, in accordance with the law and school policy. In other words, about 1/100th the bigfukingdeal you appear to think it is.

[Tekkendo]

Because it's not about America vs. Mexico. It's about kids deliberately trying to provoke a violent reaction. Why can't you guys get this through your heads?

Don't be silly. It's clear in this instance that the kids were wearing American flag shirts on a holiday significant to Mexicans in order to provoke them. Deliberately provoking aggression is not acceptable in schools.

You're trying to make this into a much bigger fight than it is. There's nothing wrong with wearing a shirt with an American flag on it, except when you're using it as an excuse to incite xenophobic conflict.

Exactly. Students in school do not have full rights to free speech.

Again, this isn't about banning the American flag. This isn't about patriotism or loving America or making a political statement. It's about stopping behavior that was deliberately intended to cause a fight at school. I'm not sure if the posters above don't understand, or are deliberately ignoring, that fact.

after getting bitch slapped around for your libtard stupidity ........ then this

Aaaaand you're out in left field again.

Maybe we can continue this discussion when you remember that this was a couple pugilistic kids being asked to turn their shirts inside out or go home and change one day at school, in accordance with the law and school policy. In other words, about 1/100th the bigfukingdeal you appear to think it is.

[lexinak]

after getting bitch slapped around for your libtard stupidity ........ then this

"Libtard stupidity" enshrined in the law. Yeah.

This isn't a race war, this isn't a nationalist dick-measuring contest, and this isn't the place to make a brave stand for students' freedom of speech. The law is clear and the court has decided. Take your two-digit IQ trolling somewhere else.

[GrokTheCube]

Again, I don't see why we just don't have schools require uniforms. I know this goes contrary to a lot of my stances on freedoms but it makes sense to me. Uniforms would lower rates of violence and bullying. You can wear what you want when not in school and have your freedom of expression there.

I tend to agree with this. Also, having gone to school in a very affluent area, I saw kids picked on frequently for their choice in clothing, meaning stuff from Target or the Salvation Army instead of the J Crew. Kids will always find reasons to be douches, but this might help a little. If nothing else, it'd save a lot of hassle.

[flairon]

Aaaaand you're out in left field again.

Maybe we can continue this discussion when you remember that this was a couple pugilistic kids being asked to turn their shirts inside out or go home and change one day at school, in accordance with the law and school policy. In other words, about 1/100th the bigfukingdeal you appear to think it is.

then you deal with the trouble makers and their actions, not their attire.

[lexinak]

then you deal with the trouble makers and their actions, not their attire.

I don't deal with anything, because I don't work in public schools.

But people who do work in public schools are obligated to prevent fights from happening. Much better to send some kids home to change than to send some kids home with broken noses or stab wounds. The law recognizes and supports this.

EDIT: Make sure that you're not confusing schoolteachers and guards with police officers. The police can only step in when a crime has been committed, to punish the perpetrator. School officials, on the other hand, are not just able but obligated to interfere in situations where violence might occur BEFORE it happens.

[32lax]

then you deal with the trouble makers and their actions, not their attire.

All this and you still haven't learned. The school doesn't have to wait for trouble to start to deal with it. It's their job to take preemptive action.

[Tekkendo]

"Libtard stupidity" enshrined in the law. Yeah.

This isn't a race war, this isn't a nationalist dick-measuring contest, and this isn't the place to make a brave stand for students' freedom of speech. The law is clear and the court has decided. Take your two-digit IQ trolling somewhere else.

No it is none of that. It is about dumbshiete libtards like you whoring your appeasement shiete around.

It is about stupid libtad appeasement shiete you spilled

Don't be silly. It's clear in this instance that the kids were wearing American flag shirts on a holiday significant to Mexicans in order to provoke them. Deliberately provoking aggression is not acceptable in schools.....

The low IQ troll is you. After seeing how your libtard leftwing shiete blew up in your smirky face, you sheepishly changing your leftard ideological tune to a different tune.

[flairon]

I don't deal with anything, because I don't work in public schools.

But people who do work in public schools are obligated to prevent fights from happening. Much better to send some kids home to change than to send some kids home with broken noses or stab wounds. The law recognizes and supports this.

EDIT: Make sure that you're not confusing schoolteachers and guards with police officers. The police can only step in when a crime has been committed, to punish the perpetrator. School officials, on the other hand, are not just able but obligated to interfere in situations where violence might occur BEFORE it happens.

and now that this is legislation...where does it stop?.

Next year what if the flag itself is the cause of friction, should the schools roll them up to be replace with the Mexican standard to head off violence for a date that mexico itself doesnt even celebrate? In the upcoming Chinese new year, when the latest batch of chinese FOB students who were traumatized by their years of working in sweatshops celebrate ultimately end up taking offense with the kids wearing Nikes will everyone be told to remove them?

On the 4th of July, will the mexicans likewise be told to remove their Che Guevara shirts?


To me it's not really an issue of patriotism or an attack on the flag or any other emotionally drive issue.

It is that now because of this politically correct retardation, this is law that sets precedence that in the context of how the law is being applied today, does not have any foreseeable backstop in future cases that will likely be just as ignorant and doesnt address the actual problem which is the violent actions of the individuals.

[32lax]

and now that this is legislation...where does it stop?.

What legislation is it in? Can you link me to that? I only heard of the court case.

[brighamw]

Let's take both race and Nationalism out of this equation for a second. Let's say jocks start bullying and kicking the asses of nerds for wearing pocket protectors.

Do you ban kids from wearing pocket protectors at pep rallies for the football team because you're worried it might offend and upset the jocks and antagonize them? IMO, **** no. To me, this is kind of what this thing is coming off as, just it's gotten all mixed up and ****ed around because you're dealing with race and Nationalism now.

All this and you still haven't learned. The school doesn't have to wait for trouble to start to deal with it. It's their job to take preemptive action.

Is your answer the same in JUSA's scenario?

[32lax]

Is your answer the same in JUSA's scenario?

Pocket protectors, to my knowledge, don't make any kind of statement. The American flag does. Certainly it is a statement I love and hope wouldn't offend anyone, but wearing it is certainly 'speech' in the legal sense. Therefore, JUSA's scenario is unlike the one presented in this case. If he is looking to make an analogy, he should look at something along the lines of the black armbands worn in the Tinker case.

[LankedOut]

Banning that US flag on the cinco de mayo... doesn't that tell the students that the american flag is something to be offended by?

Is this actually going to prevent school violence in the long run?

[32lax]

Banning that US flag on the cinco de mayo... doesn't that tell the students that the american flag is something to be offended by?

Is this actually going to prevent school violence in the long run?

No, it doesn't. In late on a long thread, read the case first.

[flairon]

What legislation is it in? Can you link me to that? I only heard of the court case.

uh...the legislation that is now in place after the judge's ruling?

[Tekkendo]

Pocket protectors, to my knowledge, don't make any kind of statement. The American flag does. Certainly it is a statement I love and hope wouldn't offend anyone, but wearing it is certainly 'speech' in the legal sense. Therefore, JUSA's scenario is unlike the one presented in this case. If he is looking to make an analogy, he should look at something along the lines of the black armbands worn in the Tinker case.

WTF does a US flag say about a tequila holiday that actually got absolutely nothing to do with the US flag whatsoever?

You may have a case if you are talking about a French flag worn by US students. But we are not talking about French flag worn by US students.

[32lax]

uh...the legislation that is now in place after the judge's ruling?

No, that's not legislation. Legislation is a law passed by congress. This is a court decision. It established no new precedent, rather it relied on the precedent set in tinker v. Des Moins.

WTF does a US flag say about a tequila holiday that actually got absolutely nothing to do with the flag whatsoever?

It doesn't matter what the speech is about. Wearing the flag qualifies as 'speech' in the legal sense.