5x5 or 3x8

[IamDanish]

Hey everybody! can you help me with a quick question.

which would give me more muscle mass?
On my heave lift ( bench, decline bench, squat, deadlift, rows, shoulder press ) if I do 5x5 resting about 3 minutes or if I do 3x8 with 1-2 minutes of rest between each set.

thank you for your time

[Gainfreak]

3 x 8-12 (10 is a good number)

1 minute between each set.

[IamDanish]

btw I'm 16

[mmmason123]

I really think rep range in a personal preference, id say nothing less than 5 or 6 reps but nothing more than 12 reps. Just find out what your body responds to the best.

[DerekLove]

Hey everybody! can you help me with a quick question.

which would give me more muscle mass?
On my heave lift ( bench, decline bench, squat, deadlift, rows, shoulder press ) if I do 5x5 resting about 3 minutes or if I do 3x8 with 1-2 minutes of rest between each set.

thank you for your time

Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy , responsible for higher gains in Muscle Mass rather than Strength is better achieved by performing in the 8 + rep ranges rather than lower ones, with less rest times.

[spiderman997]

Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy , responsible for higher gains in Muscle Mass rather than Strength is better achieved by performing in the 8 + rep ranges rather than lower ones, with less rest times.

Prove this statement with a non-crappy source. Eg, something from pubmed and not bb.com supersite.

[IamDanish]

Hey Dereklove okay thank you btw I dont know if you remember me but you gave me a program the other day, is that really as good as you said it was? ( off topic I know )

[IamDanish]

I really think rep range in a personal preference, id say nothing less than 5 or 6 reps but nothing more than 12 reps. Just find out what your body responds to the best.

Maybe this is a stupid question but how do I know when my body responds to it the best?

[DerekLove]

Prove this statement with a non-crappy source. Eg, something from pubmed and not bb.com supersite.

I'm not sure if you're serious since you actually know a thing or two.

Do you really want to try and tell people that 5X5 training gives more muscle mass than the higher rep ranges that cause more sarcoplasmic hypertrophy


.......

So a football player should train same as bodybuilder

This is obviously trolling

[spiderman997]

I'm not sure if you're serious since you actually know a thing or two.

Do you really want to try and tell people that 5X5 training gives more muscle mass than the higher rep ranges that cause more sarcoplasmic hypertrophy


.......

So a football player should train same as bodybuilder

This is obviously trolling

I don't give a **** about your logic train. Provide proof for the statement that higher rep training is better at inducing sarcoplasmic hypertrophy when compared to lower rep training.

[IamDanish]

Prove this statement with a non-crappy source. Eg, something from pubmed and not bb.com supersite.

Can you tell me which is better then?

[spiderman997]

Can you tell me which is better then?

Neither. Pick one and progressively overload it.

[sogeking]

4x7

[IamDanish]

Neither. Pick one and progressively overload it.

Okay thank you dont you have any idea what would gain me most muscle?(:

[DerekLove]

I don't give a **** about your logic train. Provide proof for the statement that higher rep training is better at inducing sarcoplasmic hypertrophy when compared to lower rep training.

The purpose of the current study was to determine the acute neuroendocrine response to hypertrophy (H), strength (S), and power (P) type resistance exercise (RE) equated for total volume. Ten male subjects completed three RE protocols and a rest day (R) using a randomized cross-over design. The protocols included (1) H: 4 sets of 10 repetitions in the squat at 75% of 1RM (90 s rest periods); (2) S: 11 sets of three repetitions at 90% of 1RM (5 min rest periods); and (3) P: 8 sets of 6 repetitions of jump squats at 0% of 1RM (3 min rest periods). Total testosterone (T), cortisol (C), and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) were determined prior to (PRE), immediately post (IP), 60 min post, 24 h post, and 48 h post exercise bout. Peak force, rate of force development, and muscle activity from the vastus medialis (VM) and biceps femoris (BF) were determined during a maximal isometric squat test. A unique pattern of response was observed in T, C, and SHBG for each RE protocol. The percent change in T, C, and SHBG from PRE to IP was significantly (p </= 0.05) greater in comparison to the R condition only after the H protocol. The percent of baseline muscle activity of the VM at IP was significantly greater following the H compared to the S protocol. These data indicate that significant acute increases in hormone concentrations are limited to H type protocols independent of the volume of work competed. In addition, it appears the H protocol also elicits a unique pattern of muscle activity as well. RE protocols of varying intensity and rest periods elicit strikingly different acute neuroendocrine responses which indicate a unique physiological stimulus.


Proof that different rep ranges have very different physiological effects.














-----------

Read the following:




Skeletal Muscle is the focus of weight training and is further divided into the more specific types of fibers that it consists of. Type I Fibers, Type IIa fibers and Type IIb fibers. This section will talk about their physical composition and what role the different fibers play in weight lifting.


Type I Fibers - Slow Twitch Oxidative
These fibers, are the slow twitch or slow oxidative fibers. Structurally, they have a small motor neuron and fiber diameter, they contain large amounts of Myoglobin, many mitochondria and many blood capillaries. Energetically, they have a low supply of creatine phosphate (a high-energy substrate used for quick, explosive movements).

Since the force production is low, and the resistance to fatigue is high, this type of muscle is best suited for every-day activity, and long-term low level anaerobic activity. Type I fibers can undergo hypertrophy, however, they so at an extremely slower rate than other muscle fibers, and aren't the primary focus of most workout programs.


TIP: This is why the idiots in the gym doing 20 sets of 50 biceps curls don't see gains.


Type IIa - Intermediate Fast twitch Oxidative

Intermediate fast-twitch fibers or fast oxidative fibers, they contain very large amounts of Myoglobin, more mitochondria and much more blood capillaries. Type IIa fibers split ATP at a very rapid rate, have a fast contraction velocity and are moderately resistant to fatigue.

These fibers can use both aerobic and anaerobic metabolism almost equally to create energy. They're the middle ground between Type I and Type IIb fibers (covered next), and so are best suited for intermediate to long term anaerobic activity. Type IIa fibers modified through weight training shows a slight increase in diameter, mitochondria, blood capillaries, and strength. They can even be adapted into Type IIb fibers through proper training.



Type IIb - Fast Twitch Glycolytic

The other type of fast twitch fibers called fast twitch glycolytic fibers, use anaerobic metabolism to create energy and excel at producing quick, very powerful bursts of force. This muscle fiber has the highest rate of contraction of all the muscle fiber types, it fires approximately four times faster then Type I fibers (time to peak power of 100 milliseconds v. 25 milliseconds), but it also has a much faster rate of fatigue and can't last very long before rest is needed.

Since they contract quicker, if you have an advantage for the first tenth of the movement, it can result in superior performance. This is why I frequently tell people on this forum to "lift explosively" when dealing with heavy weight -- Remember that. I'll come back to the importance of this point later in the article. Since their total peak power is greater this also gives an advantage when producing force under high velocity conditions. People who have a higher percentage of fast-twitch fibers (both IIa and IIb) have a greater potential for force and muscular development. Studies show that weight lifters have around twice the area of fast twitch fibers as the average anatomy of a non lifter. Fast twitch fibers are the primary muscle that is adapted and targeted for hypertrophy, specifically Type IIa are targeted at the 5-15 rep range, where Type IIb are targeted in the 3-8 rep range.


TIP This is why the "sweet spot" of lifting, known as Anabolic Rep Range is 8-12 repetitions, because it recruits the greatest majority of Fast Twitch Fibers.


Part Three: "Muscle Fiber Modification a.k.a. I lift things up, and put them down"

To improve your dynamic strength, isokinetic strength, and muscular endurance you have to (along with eating right of course) lift things up and put them down. It's really not that difficult a concept to grasp, but if you want to get the most out of your hard earned hours in the gym, details are worth going into.

Many types of exercises can bring about changes in the muscle fibers of skeletal muscle. Moderate endurance type exercises, such as frequent lifting or swimming, can cause the gradual transformation of type IIa fibers into type IIb fibers which are more primed for heavier lifting. This is why your strength increases.


TIP: Remember your incredibly fast noob gains that you got on Ripptoe's Starting Strength or on any training program you started out with? Beginner gains like this are thought to occur because you were transforming a large portion of your common IIa fibers into type IIb. The more experienced lifter must focus on increasing the diameter and strength of their existing type IIb to the point where they can generate exercise-induced growth hormone. However, the transformation of muscle fibers is still not completely understood.

Your dominant fiber type proportion will play a major role in the amount of weight you can lift, the number of repetitions you can complete in a set, and your desired outcome (increased muscular strength, size, power and/or endurance). While a decent portion of this, as everything in lifting, does come down to genetics, endurance specific, strength specific, or hypertrophy specific weight training should be considered according to your objectives and goals. Although fast twitch fibers cannot be changed into slow twitch fibers (and vice versa), training can change the amount of area taken up by the fiber type in the muscle. In other words, there can be a selective hypertrophy and development of fibers based on the type of training. It's also important to note that you never increase the number of your muscle fibers when you work out, only the development and size.


TIP : I feel like I need to clarify here. Type IIa fibers can change into Type IIb fibers, and vice versa, but this is because they're both Type II (fast twitch) muscles. The transformation of slow twitch to fast twitch is the transformation that is not possible.


---------------------------------------------------


Now, you might be saying, "Wow! I can't wait to target my Type II fibers with all my friends at school!" Well that's a fine attitude sir... but guess what:


Muscle fiber specific training should not be the crux of your workout.


Any serious, consistent lifter with a good amount of training experience should be “aware” of muscle fiber types and give it consideration when designing your workout ranges, but it is not something to obsess over.

And guess what else: Type II fibers are bigger yet can produce roughly the same peak force as Type I fibers Regarding "peak force" production, the only real difference amongst the fibers is their size. Therefore, for displays of maximum force, fiber type is actually of little consequence.

Admittedly that is a bit misleading. Everything previous to this stated how Type II fibers were more powerful than Type I, and now I tell you that the "peak force" is the same?

It took me quite a bit of research to get to the bottom of this. The truth is, they contract at about the same force but the Type II contract much quicker and are better at creating force at high speeds. (Remember what I told you to remember?)

In the grand scheme of things, muscular training developing your Type II fibers will yield more strength, size and endurance as they can contract faster and reach "peak force" faster...

But under a certain condition:

Listen up, this next paragraph makes the point this entire article has been leading up to.

The real limit to your performance is the number of motor units your nervous system can recruit in the short amount of time -- and aiming to recruit the maximum amount of muscle fibers in the short amount of contracting time means you need to use efficient movements.

An athlete who is slow twitch dominant but who works in more efficient explosive movements will outperform and equal athlete who is using inferior form but is fast twitch dominant.

I swear I want everyone to get the phrase LIFT EXPLOSIVELY tattooed on their bodies somewhere. Why?

Because...

The potential of your faster contracting and subsequently more powerful Type II muscle fibers is wasted if you do not conduct your workouts with efficient technique


And no, by this I don't mean grunting and going as fast as you can through your reps like someone from a Planet Fitness commercial. If you do that, you are stupid and should be neutered. Proper form and an initial explosive contraction at the very beginning of your repetition recruits the maximum amount of muscle fibers your motor neurons can contract in the .4 - .6 seconds it takes them to reach peak force. During this explosive lift, Type I and Type II fibers are recruited together in harmony and synchronization producing your maximum lifting potential.

So I'll say it again, if you remember one thing from this article remember this:

Explosive initial force in the lift, proper form/technique, and controlled negative contraction is the most important part of your workout.


Learn how to correctly train for optimal performance and your body will take care of the rest as a natural adaptation to your training, and you will grow.


Periodization Training for Sports - 2nd Edition (Book)

Foundations of Kinesiology: Studying Human Movement and Health (Book)



*********************




Read the above ^

[spiderman997]

Okay thank you dont you have any idea what would gain me most muscle?(:

You're majoring in the minors. Set and rep range doesn't matter, consistent progression matters.

[IamDanish]

4x7

why would 4x7 gain me more muscle usopp ( lol ). not because I dont believe you I just want the explanation if u have 1

[DerekLove]

To make things short, there are two types of Hypertrophy.

Sacroplasmic and Myofibrillar Hypertrophy.

The one that yields more size gains is "Sarcoplasmic", as the muscle cells expand in size.



Both kinds of Hypertrophy inevitably will cause both Sarcoplasmic and Myofibrillar, as it is IMPOSSIBLE to isolate the type of muscle fibers you are hitting.

However, in order to efficiently achieve Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy, you will be better off in the "8-12 rep range".

Any higher will generally recruit more muscle fibers building endurance, any lower targets more Strength based muscle fibers.


This is why you can find scrawny 130 pound asian kids like I do in my gym that are benching 315+ full motion for reps, but look like a Twig that can't even bench 135. It's also why you see Olympic Lifters like Pyrros Dimas( spelling ? ) who can clean and jerk 450+ pounds, but is nowhere near in comparison as big as Dorian Yates/Phil Heath/Jay Cutler/Arnold S or even typical people at the gym that can't even Clean and Jerk 225.

It's different training, different muscle fibers, different types of neuron and muscle recruitment or stimulation.




*** final answer : ***

- Natural bodybuilders would respond better in the 8-12 rep range for Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy and size/mass development.




















If you want to look at the mass amounts of Anectodal Evidence, they are available all over the world and in your own gyms

Brb. 145 lb asian Kid at my gym that doesn't even look like he lifts can bench 315, I am 3X his size and can only do 235 on flat.





Progressive Overload in 5X5 does not mean your overload will cause Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy more than Progressive Overload in 5X12


One will overload more neuron adaptation and myro hypertrophy,with some sarco hypertrophy
One will overload more hypertrophy,with less neuron adaptation and myro hypertrophy

[spiderman997]

Ethan if you are trying to distract me with a plethora of bull**** and hope I don't notice that it doesn't address my original statement it's not going to work. That wall of text has no relavence to the issue at hand.

[DerekLove]

Ethan if you are trying to distract me with a plethora of bull**** and hope I don't notice that it doesn't address my original statement it's not going to work. That wall of text has no relavence to the issue at hand.

Only the very first part of it was a little off topic.


The rest was not brah.

I'm sorry, you can not possibly be trying to say one will get more muscle mass on strength training routines than bodybuilding training routines.

brb most 400-500 benchers have tinier chest than bodybuilders doing 225


brb football players on average with 14-16 inch arms despite being 10x stronger than most people at the gym who are the same size or bigger

[IamDanish]

You're majoring in the minors. Set and rep range doesn't matter, consistent progression matters.

Which literally means keep increasing the weight right?

[DerekLove]

Which literally means keep increasing the weight right?

brah, I would normally listen to Spidey boy on everything


but plz don't listen to him when he says 5x5 is better for more muscle mass.


I think he is either trolling,trying to be a smartass,or is bored right now.


even he knows that the higher rep ranges are better for more muscle mass & size.

it's obvious trolling


stick to 8-12 as a basic foundation of the training ( generally 65-75% of 1RM)

[spiderman997]

The rest was not brah.

The rest was not 'proof', it was your B.S. anecdotal ranting that you tried to disguise by citing actual works on something completely off topic to make it SEEM as though you were qualified to say such things.

[GoatTower]

Read the above ^

[TARBERTD]

Only the very first part of it was a little off topic.


The rest was not brah.

I'm sorry, you can not possibly be trying to say one will get more muscle mass on strength training routines than bodybuilding training routines.

brb most 400-500 benchers have tinier chest than bodybuilders doing 225


brb football players on average with 14-16 inch arms despite being 10x stronger than most people at the gym who are the same size or bigger

Just wanted to say that your info was a good read. Idc if it was a bit off topic or whatever the arguement is; now i at least somewhat understand WHY 8-12 reps is generally accepted to be the best for size. Also...next workout I'm really gonna emphasize that explosion of force to recruit those extra fibers haha

Thanks brahh

[mikeharrington]

solution to your stalling --> consume more calories. you gotta eat big to get big and as for rep counts.. people say 5x5 is "bulk" and 3x10 is "lean" but there's no coorelation. If you push yourself you'll rip muscle fibers and that will cause your muscles to grow larger. Rep count is more of a preferance

[gtslmfao]

can't we just say everyone responds differently to different rep ranges and move on?

[Vanduynomite]

5x5 personally works bet for me

[goobyplss]

Prove this statement with a non-crappy source. Eg, something from pubmed and not bb.com supersite.

[kesp74]

3 x 8-12 (10 is a good number)

1 minute between each set.

Should I be increasing the weight on each set?

So something like:

3 x 8-12 at 65% RM
3 x 8-12 at 75% RM
3 x 8-12 at 85% RM

Only, if i keep the same weight and max out at 12 reps on the first set then i'll probably only manage 10 reps on the second set and 8 on the 3rd

If you should be increasing weight, do you still need to do warm up sets? Or is it better to use the first two sets as 'warm ups' and go all out on the last set?

Cheers,

K