beta alanine and citrulline malate?

[moneyrich]

Thinking of buying both supps, are they strictly pre workout or take anytime during the day? I've read that i need to take 3.2g of beta alanine and 8g of citrulline malate? I've also read that they are supps like creatine where you need to take them long term for effects, so do i need to take it on off days? Also how do i avoid the tingles/pricks from beta alanine? split up the doses?

[JasonDB]

Why would you throw away your money like that? If you want to just waste money for no reason send it to me.

[WonderPug]

are they strictly pre workout or take anytime during the day?

The placebo effect is usually not dependent on time-of-day.

[JasonDB]

The placebo effect is usually not dependent on time-of-day.

^^^ this

And if every month you send me the money you were going to spend on those suppliments I promise you that you will see good gains in size and strength. I'll even make a study to prove it for you.

[midcoastking33]

[ZMan45]

I can testify to beta alanine working. Do some more research on when and how much to dose, as it's actually a useful supp. Citrulline malate I really don't know all that much. I've taken supplements with both citmal and l-citrulline, and they might give a slight endurance boost, but nothing to write home about IMO.

[jammyo40]

Maybe you should post questions about supplements in the Supplements section

[JasonDB]

Maybe you should post questions about supplements in the Supplements section

Bad idea... that forum is full on retard. Everyone there actually thinks suppliments work. How would you ever get good advice?

[jammyo40]

Bad idea... that forum is full on retard. Everyone there actually thinks suppliments work. How would you ever get good advice?

It's not NMisc's duty to save every brotard on bb.com

[moneyrich]

Maybe you should post questions about supplements in the Supplements section

Too much bro science there.

[alan aragon]

BA has a pretty solid evidence basis. If you're at a point in your development where you feel it's time to push the envelope, then fine; just be aware that long-term human toxicological data is unavailable. CM has a very scant evidence basis. I'm talking a single study directly assessing (relevant) training performance & showing benefit. Is CM worth a try? Depends on how optimistic you are & excited you get at the idea of taking it. A strong expectation bias will strengthen the placebo response in case it actually doesn't do much on its own.

[greekmanman]

BA has a pretty solid evidence basis. If you're at a point in your development where you feel it's time to push the envelope, then fine; just be aware that long-term human toxicological data is unavailable. CM has a very scant evidence basis. I'm talking a single study directly assessing training performance & showing benefit. Is CM worth a try? Depends on how optimistic you are & excited you get at the idea of taking it. A strong expectation bias will strengthen the placebo response in case it actually doesn't do much on its own.

Solid response Alan.

OP, you can split the dosages of beta alanine if you do not enjoy the parasthesia(tingling/itching feeling).

Citrulline malate should be taken pre workout.

Assuming you are training 4-5 days per week, dosing just on those days should be fine.

[midcoastking33]

Also I would like to add 8g of cm is a waste, take 4g tops

[JasonDB]

BA has a pretty solid evidence basis. If you're at a point in your development where you feel it's time to push the envelope, then fine; just be aware that long-term human toxicological data is unavailable. CM has a very scant evidence basis. I'm talking a single study directly assessing (relevant) training performance & showing benefit. Is CM worth a try? Depends on how optimistic you are & excited you get at the idea of taking it. A strong expectation bias will strengthen the placebo response in case it actually doesn't do much on its own.

You mean there are suppliments that work now outside of fish oil and vitamins? **** me... see what happens when you go 8 years without reading up on a subject? I've been telling people for years that anyone who thinks suppliments will help them gain muscle or strength rapidly is a complete ****ing moron and everything that comes from their mouth should be disregarded on all other subjects on general principle. That the suppliment industry is completely snake oil and con artists. I feel bad now.

[moneyrich]

BA has a pretty solid evidence basis. If you're at a point in your development where you feel it's time to push the envelope, then fine; just be aware that long-term human toxicological data is unavailable. CM has a very scant evidence basis. I'm talking a single study directly assessing (relevant) training performance & showing benefit. Is CM worth a try? Depends on how optimistic you are & excited you get at the idea of taking it. A strong expectation bias will strengthen the placebo response in case it actually doesn't do much on its own.

Yes i was aware that Beta alanine had solid evidence. I remember seeing somewhere that it was the second most studied BB supp next to creatine.
Well thx for the reply.

[Shermanatorx]

Also I would like to add 8g of cm is a waste, take 4g tops

CM dosing is going to vary user to user. 3-7g will cover most individuals.

You also have to take into account the ratio of citrulline to malic acid, typically it's 2:1(new xtend is 1:1-bonded). I personally don't think bonding citrulline and malic acid is necessary; we're not talking exogenous nitrate salts and amino acids.

The bond seems unnecessary and increases cost for the consumer.

[moetstylesbrah]

Citrulline malate enhances athletic anaerobic performance and relieves muscle soreness.

Pérez-Guisado J, Jakeman PM.
Source
Department of Medicine, University of Córdoba, Córdoba, Spain. pv1peguj@uco.es
Abstract
The purpose of the present study was to determine the effects of a single dose of citrulline malate (CM) on the performance of flat barbell bench presses as an anaerobic exercise and in terms of decreasing muscle soreness after exercise. Forty-one men performed 2 consecutive pectoral training session protocols (16 sets). The study was performed as a randomized, double-blind, 2-period crossover design. Eight grams of CM was used in 1 of the 2 training sessions, and a placebo was used in the other. The subjects' resistance was tested using the repetitions to fatigue test, at 80% of their predetermined 1 repetition maximum (RM), in the 8 sets of flat barbell bench presses during the pectoral training session (S1-4 and S1'-4'). The p-value was 0.05. The number of repetitions showed a significant increase from placebo treatment to CM treatment from the third set evaluated (p <0.0001). This increase was positively correlated with the number of sets, achieving 52.92% more repetitions and the 100% of response in the last set (S4'). A significant decrease of 40% in muscle soreness at 24 hours and 48 hours after the pectoral training session and a higher percentage response than 90% was achieved with CM supplementation. The only side effect reported was a feeling of stomach discomfort in 14.63% of the subjects. We conclude that the use of CM might be useful to increase athletic performance in high-intensity anaerobic exercises with short rest times and to relieve postexercise muscle soreness. Thus, athletes undergoing intensive preparation involving a high level of training or in competitive events might profit from CM.

in that study people who took CM increased their bench.. but that could be noob gains.. also not sure if soreness is relevant to anything

i just got done with a tub of CM after seeing this study like 6 months ago and did not notice a difference

[staunchkg]

Effect of two β-alanine dosing protocols on muscle carnosine synthesis and washout. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21847611
Stellingwerff T, Anwander H, Egger A, Buehler T, Kreis R, Decombaz J, Boesch C.
Source
Department of Nutrition and Health, Nestlé Research Center, Nestec Ltd, PO Box 44, 1000, Lausanne 26, Switzerland, trent.stellingwerff@rdls.nestle.com.
Abstract
Carnosine (β-alanyl-L: -histidine) is found in high concentrations in skeletal muscle and chronic β-alanine (BA) supplementation can increase carnosine content. This placebo-controlled, double-blind study compared two different 8-week BA dosing regimens on the time course of muscle carnosine loading and 8-week washout, leading to a BA dose-response study with serial muscle carnosine assessments throughout. Thirty-one young males were randomized into three BA dosing groups: (1) high-low: 3.2 g BA/day for 4 weeks, followed by 1.6 g BA/day for 4 weeks; (2) low-low: 1.6 g BA/day for 8 weeks; and (3) placebo. Muscle carnosine in tibialis-anterior (TA) and gastrocnemius (GA) muscles was measured by (1)H-MRS at weeks 0, 2, 4, 8, 12 and 16. Flushing symptoms and blood clinical chemistry were trivial in all three groups and there were no muscle carnosine changes in the placebo group. During the first 4 weeks, the increase for high-low (TA 2.04 mmol/kg(ww), GA 1.75 mmol/kg(ww)) was ~twofold greater than low-low (TA 1.12 mmol/kg(ww), GA 0.80 mmol/kg(ww)). 1.6 g BA/day significantly increased muscle carnosine within 2 weeks and induced continual rises in already augmented muscle carnosine stores (week 4-8, high-low regime). The dose-response showed a carnosine increase of 2.01 mmol/kg(ww) per 100 g of consumed BA, which was only dependent upon the total accumulated BA consumed (within a daily intake range of 1.6-3.2 g BA/day). Washout rates were gradual (0.18 mmol/kg(ww) and 0.43 mmol/kg(ww)/week; ~2%/week). In summary, the absolute increase in muscle carnosine is only dependent upon the total BA consumed and is not dependent upon baseline muscle carnosine, the muscle type, or the daily amount of supplemented BA.

[staunchkg]

Role of beta-alanine supplementation on muscle carnosine and exercise performance. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20479615
Artioli GG, Gualano B, Smith A, Stout J, Lancha AH Jr.
Source
Laboratory of Applied Nutrition and Metabolism, School of Physical Education and Sports, University of São Paulo, São Paulo, Brazil. artioli@usp.br
Abstract
In this narrative review, we present and discuss the current knowledge available on carnosine and beta-alanine metabolism as well as the effects of beta-alanine supplementation on exercise performance. Intramuscular acidosis has been attributed to be one of the main causes of fatigue during intense exercise. Carnosine has been shown to play a significant role in muscle pH regulation. Carnosine is synthesized in skeletal muscle from the amino acids l-histidine and beta-alanine. The rate-limiting factor of carnosine synthesis is beta-alanine availability. Supplementation with beta-alanine has been shown to increase muscle carnosine content and therefore total muscle buffer capacity, with the potential to elicit improvements in physical performance during high-intensity exercise. Studies on beta-alanine supplementation and exercise performance have demonstrated improvements in performance during multiple bouts of high-intensity exercise and in single bouts of exercise lasting more than 60 s. Similarly, beta-alanine supplementation has been shown to delay the onset of neuromuscular fatigue. Although beta-alanine does not improve maximal strength or VO2max, some aspects of endurance performance, such as anaerobic threshold and time to exhaustion, can be enhanced. Symptoms of paresthesia may be observed if a single dose higher than 800 mg is ingested. The symptoms, however, are transient and related to the increase in plasma concentration. They can be prevented by using controlled release capsules and smaller dosing strategies. No important side effect was related to the use of this amino acid so far. In conclusion, beta-alanine supplementation seems to be a safe nutritional strategy capable of improving high-intensity anaerobic performance.

[staunchkg]

Six weeks of high-intensity interval training with and without beta-alanine supplementation for improving cardiovascular fitness in women.
Walter AA, Smith AE, Kendall KL, Stout JR, Cramer JT. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20386120
Source
Biophysics Laboratory, Department of Health and Exercise Science, University of Oklahoma, Norman, Oklahoma, USA.
Abstract
The purpose of the present study was to evaluate the effects of cycle ergometry high-intensity interval training (HIIT) with and without beta-alanine supplementation on maximal oxygen consumption rate (VO2 peak), cycle ergometer workload at the ventilatory threshold (VT W), and body composition. Forty-four women (mean +/- SD age = 21.8 +/- 3.7 years; height = 166.5 +/- 6.6 cm; body mass (BM) = 65.9 +/- 10.8 kg; VO2 peak = 31.5 +/- 6.2 ml x kg(-1) x min(-1)) were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: beta-alanine (BA, n = 14) 1.5 g + 15 g dextrose powder; placebo (PL, n = 19) 16.5 g dextrose powder; or control (CON, n = 11). Testing was conducted at baseline (week 0), after 3 weeks (week 4), and after 6 weeks (week 8). VO2 peak (ml x kg(-1) x min(-1)) and VT W were measured with a metabolic cart during graded exercise tests on a corival cycle ergometer, and body composition (percent fat = % fat and fat-free mass = FFM) were determined by air displacement plethysmography. High-intensity interval training was performed on a corival cycle ergometer 3 times per week with 5 2-minute work intervals and 1-minute passive recovery with undulating intensities (90-110% of the workload recorded at VO2 peak) during each training session. VO2 peak increased (p <or= 0.05) in the BA and PL groups at weeks 4 and 8, but did not change (p > 0.05) for the CON group. VT W increased (p <or= 0.05) for all groups at weeks 4 and 8. Body mass increased (p <or= 0.05) only for the BA group at weeks 4 and 8, whereas %fat decreased (p <or= 0.05) and FFM increased (p <or= 0.05) at weeks 4 and 8 for all groups (BA, PL, and CON). Although it is unclear why beta-alanine supplementation increased BM, there was no additive effects for increasing VO2 peak beyond the PL. Overall, these results suggested that HIIT may be an effective and time-efficient method of training to improve maximal oxygen uptake.

[drewzon87]

You mean there are suppliments that work now outside of fish oil and vitamins? **** me... see what happens when you go 8 years without reading up on a subject? I've been telling people for years that anyone who thinks suppliments will help them gain muscle or strength rapidly is a complete ****ing moron and everything that comes from their mouth should be disregarded on all other subjects on general principle. That the suppliment industry is completely snake oil and con artists. I feel bad now.

if you watch the video posted above, i like his advice

just buy the ingredients of whatever supplement separately and make your own stack of them

that way you aren't getting boned by some proprietary blend scam or paying 5x as much for someone to mix up stuff for you and make it taste like wacky lime lemonade

i mean uhhhh I AM JUGGERNAUT

[midcoastking33]

if you watch the video posted above, i like his advice

just buy the ingredients of whatever supplement separately and make your own stack of them

that way you aren't getting boned by some proprietary blend scam or paying 5x as much for someone to mix up stuff for you and make it taste like wacky lime lemonade

i mean uhhhh I AM JUGGERNAUT

that's pretty much every supplement review ever on youtube too. OH IT TASTES GREAT, THE PUMP IS AMAZING! Awesome you just paid 50 bucks for kool aid. In before xtend is the best invention ever

[drewzon87]

that's pretty much every supplement review ever on youtube too. OH IT TASTES GREAT, THE PUMP IS AMAZING! Awesome you just paid 50 bucks for kool aid. In before xtend is the best invention ever

why didn't he talk about 1,3? that is the big thing now isn't it? i've never tried it

chugging espresso pwo ftw

[moetstylesbrah]

chugging espresso pwo ftw

x2.. but at the cost of wasting some money on pre workout supps before finding out they are waste.

[alan aragon]

in that study people who took CM increased their bench.. but that could be noob gains.. also not sure if soreness is relevant to anything

i just got done with a tub of CM after seeing this study like 6 months ago and did not notice a difference

This is the single relevant CM study I referred to in my previous post. The subjects were not untrained. Part of the prereq's for participating were: currently training >3 hours per week with a program that included the bench press and pectoral exercises. This strengthens the validity of the outcomes. The main limitation to consider is that these results haven't been replicated yet, and staking your investments on a single study is more a matter of faith & optimism than anything else. Sure, you could also count the finger flexion study, but that measured indirect indexes rather than exercise performance per se. In any case, it looks like your personal experience w/CM was disappointing.

[moetstylesbrah]

This is the single relevant CM study I referred to in my previous post. The subjects were not untrained. Part of the prereq's for participating were: currently training >3 hours per week with a program that included the bench press and pectoral exercises. This strengthens the validity of the outcomes. The main limitation to consider is that these results haven't been replicated yet, and staking your investments on a single study is more a matter of faith & optimism than anything else. Sure, you could also count the finger flexion study, but that measured indirect indexes rather than exercise performance per se. In any case, it looks like your personal experience w/CM was disappointing.

yup. was more of a impulse buy.. not as bad as CEE i bought after a gnc like store employee/bro recommended that to me instead of monohydrate..

do you know if your article in september mens health is published in the australian version ? if so, whats is the article about ? the one here does not have a list of authors/writers at the first few pages and does not name the writer at the end of the article.

I bought it because you told me your article would be there lol

[alan aragon]

yup. was more of a impulse buy.. not as bad as CEE i bought after a gnc like store employee/bro recommended that to me instead of monohydrate..

do you know if your article in september mens health is published in the australian version ? if so, whats is the article about ? the one here does not have a list of authors/writers at the first few pages and does not name the writer at the end of the article.

I bought it because you told me your article would be there lol

I really have no idea what goes into the Aus version of MH, but I'm pretty sure the content is different. I think my articles are only in the US version. Haven't seen the Aus version so I can't say for certain. The Sept issue (US) has an article where Paul Kita, one of the editors, talks about working w/me, but the Oct issue has a full-length article I wrote. All the articles eventually get posted online, but I'm not sure what the lag time between physical printing & online posting is.

[R3T3K]

I'm a strong advocator of BA use. It's helped me curb my DOMS, as I ran through Layne Norton's PHAT. I don't even feel the tingles anymore.

feelsbadman

[alan aragon]

You mean there are suppliments that work now outside of fish oil and vitamins? **** me... see what happens when you go 8 years without reading up on a subject? I've been telling people for years that anyone who thinks suppliments will help them gain muscle or strength rapidly is a complete ****ing moron and everything that comes from their mouth should be disregarded on all other subjects on general principle. That the suppliment industry is completely snake oil and con artists. I feel bad now.

Don't feel too bad, BA's evidence base really only began tipping strongly in its favor as of the past 3 yrs, if that. I did a review of BA in July 2008, and at the time it only had 2 longer-term trials (10 wks) showing conflicting results.

[hawaiistack]

Sorry to jack.
Searched online and in sup forum but interested in ya'lls experiences, thoughts.... BCAA's?? I'm cutting now and trying to retain mass. Read reviews but considering the source.