Calling out all the westside for raw *******s

[SPFjudge]

http://articles.elitefts.com/article...the-raw-squat/

[JacobRothenberg]

http://articles.elitefts.com/article...the-raw-squat/

but bro....

[KevinAlvarez123]

I strongly agree with 1-4

Idk about knee wraps though

[Torrtrefireto]

3. Commit to the Descent – The most difficult aspect of the raw squat for most people is reversing the bar out of the hole. A more rapid descent will allow you to have more rebound out of the hole. Similar to using bands as accommodating resistance, an over speed eccentric will create a faster concentric portion of the lift. You are also using less energy by bringing the bar down faster. Watch myself, Robert Wilkerson, or Pat Mendes squat, all of us drop rapidly and reverse the weight quickly.

It doesn't sound like he's hating on westside too much. Just saying that instead of wide stance box squats one might benefit more from variations that focus on quads....

Because apparently squatting isn't enough for them.

[koyongi]

I'm confuzzled as to the relationship between the title of this thread and the content of this link.
Are you implying that the suggestions for raw squatting and Westside are irreconcilable?

[SPFjudge]

No I just don't think box squats do shi/t for raw squatting. I know you disagree with me and can use yourself as an example but we'll never know what you could have don if you had never box squatted.

[isaku900]

No I just don't think box squats do shi/t for raw squatting. I know you disagree with me and can use yourself as an example but we'll never know what you could have don if you had never box squatted.

Sure we can. She squatted 264 at a higher weight class before she started box squatting.

[goosefrabbas]

I think that's the first EliteFTS article I've ever read that said to not box squat.

[koyongi]

No I just don't think box squats do shi/t for raw squatting. I know you disagree with me and can use yourself as an example but we'll never know what you could have don if you had never box squatted.

But box squats /== Westside.

I do think that box squats are beneficial for raw lifters (although not necessary), if implemented correctly. However, if implemented incorrectly, they can also do more harm than good. I can also use myself as an example of that. The guy is just saying in the article that doing mostly box squats, and doing mostly multiply-type box squats (negative shin angle, super wide) doesn't have much carryover. I think it'd be silly to disagree with that. But it doesn't mean that they're not useful. Nobody would advocate doing SLDLs all the time for your deadlift training, but that doesn't mean that they're not useful training tools (but also doesn't mean that you ever have to do them).

I'm just going to come up with a new name for my training methods. Then they won't have the whole Westside (or Crossfit) drama associated with them.
Unfortunately, I'm not feeling very creative right now, so the new name will have to wait.

[SPFjudge]

Sure we can. She squatted 264 at a higher weight class before she started box squatting.

Probably other variables as well. Same training partners? same intensity? same dedication? same nutrition? same sleep paterns? same stress factors? years training? how much ass was she getting?

[John Prophet]

I think box squatting is ok as a variation for raw squatting. In the course of a year one can find room for it. I dont think it is the be-all end-all though

one thing I believe in is building a good base. for example if you bench with ring finger on ring, you can do phases where you bench wider and narrower than that....then as the meet approaches you drop the wide and narrow stuff and go for max specificity with your comp grip. That wide and narrow benching gives a good "base" IMO. Pretty sure both Kaz and Larry Pacifico did some variation of that.

Same can go for squats. you can do, say, wide box squatting (wider than your normal stance) and you can do some narrower stance squatting in certain prep phases...then you move away from that as a meet approaches and u go for max specificity.

The theory is the same for doing rack partials...you dont just train at EXACTLY the sticking point, you also train slightly below and above it


Also, wide box for raw may function as a form of chaos training lol...if you do a a very typical "improper" box squat when u get heavy...where you squat it up with the thighs, I think it may help you for those instances where you end up in the exact same position raw squatting.

[NewbieX2]

but bro....

Why did I watch this....

Will read article. As a raw lifter I'm always interested in learning more about methods of training, especially westside.

[SPFjudge]

I think box squatting is ok as a variation for raw squatting. In the course of a year one can find room for it. I dont think it is the be-all end-all though

one thing I believe in is building a good base. for example if you bench with ring finger on ring, you can do phases where you bench wider and narrower than that....then as the meet approaches you drop the wide and narrow stuff and go for max specificity with your comp grip. That wide and narrow benching gives a good "base" IMO. Pretty sure both Kaz and Larry Pacifico did some variation of that.

Same can go for squats. you can do, say, wide box squatting (wider than your normal stance) and you can do some narrower stance squatting in certain prep phases...then you move away from that as a meet approaches and u go for max specificity.

The theory is the same for doing rack partials...you dont just train at EXACTLY the sticking point, you also train slightly below and above it


Also, wide box for raw may function as a form of chaos training lol...if you do a a very typical "improper" box squat when u get heavy...where you squat it up with the thighs, I think it may help you for those instances where you end up in the exact same position raw squatting.

how much do you squat? Video?

[SPFjudge]

Why did I watch this....

Will read article. As a raw lifter I'm always interested in learning more about methods of training, especially westside.

well, use the conjugate methods if you want to, just don't box squat brah and you'll be good

[NewbieX2]

well, use the conjugate methods if you want to, just don't box squat brah and you'll be good

I thought of cycling between high bar squats, low bar squats, and front squats as my lifts. I also planned on those same lifts but with a box involved. Maybe it would be more beneficial to spend more time towards the first 3 and only a little time on the second three. I just fear that only cycling those first 3 won't be enough variation to progress.

[SPFjudge]

well since your name is "newbie" why don't you just squat like you're supposed to squat for a while and after a few years when you stop making rapid progress you can fukk around with the stupid shi/t.

[JacobRothenberg]

I thought of cycling between high bar squats, low bar squats, and front squats as my lifts. I also planned on those same lifts but with a box involved. Maybe it would be more beneficial to spend more time towards the first 3 and only a little time on the second three. I just fear that only cycling those first 3 won't be enough variation to progress.

Don't worry about your bar position so much.....just find a position that's comfortable for you, and focus on the stuff that matters

[.aeterna]

well since your name is "newbie" why don't you just squat like you're supposed to squat for a while and after a few years when you stop making rapid progress you can fukk around with the stupid shi/t.

lol'd

cuz true

[NewbieX2]

well since your name is "newbie" why don't you just squat like you're supposed to squat for a while and after a few years when you stop making rapid progress you can fukk around with the stupid shi/t.

lol'd

cuz true

Can you guys elaborate on "how you're supposed to?" Are you saying that using westside methods at my lifts will result in considerably slower progress than something like 5/3/1?

[SPFjudge]

what I meant by supposed to was either high or low which ever way you like better. both have their advantages.

I use a linear meet prep style training. I squat twice a week. i do use safety squat bar on one day to cut down on elbow and bicep tendonitits but I never box squat. I just don't see how it translates you a raw squat. Its a totally different movement.

[isaku900]

Can you guys elaborate on "how you're supposed to?" Are you saying that using westside methods at my lifts will result in considerably slower progress than something like 5/3/1?

I believe I said that as well when you first ventured into conjugate methods. WSB, Sheiko, and 5/3/1 are all designed to be slow, steady progression they are not for beginner or intermediate lifters.

[.aeterna]

reminds me of a recent article by wendler:

T NATION: How strong should I be before considering adding bands and chains? What should you add and when?

JW: I get asked this question all the time, usually from rookies who say that they could bench 275 if their gym had some of the cool toys you can get from Elitefts. My favorite answer to it is, "When you stop asking the question, doubting yourself, and just do it."

Granted, I do believe that one should exhaust the typical training methods before adding too many tricks and tools to their training. You don't want to play your trump card too early. Sometimes you just have to get smarter or work harder.

A popular misconception is that if you had access to train with all the latest strength training toys and gadgets you'd be as strong as your strength training heroes. It's an easy way out. It's also flat-out wrong.

What these weak souls fail to understand is that their heroes usually spent a decade or more training the basic lifts and assistance movements before they added chains and bands to their training. Or that many got strong for a very long time without the use of any of them.

It's imperative that folks branch out in their training and give everything reasonable a good shot. This is especially true of intermediate lifters that need a boost in their training and have a very strong base to work with. Adding these things just might provide the motivation and the kick in the ass that they need to ramp-up their numbers to a higher level.

It also lets them experiment with another periodization model (periodization = planning) that will provide a broader knowledge of the training world. This is imperative if the goal is to learn and progress and keep pushing forward. The more knowledge you seek (and more importantly, experiment with) the better lifter/programmer you will be.

My best advice to those that want to add chains/bands in their training is to just follow the programs and training styles that have used these tools successfully. Don't pretend you know more about it than the people that have done it for decades. They've made the mistakes and honed the craft so you don't have to.

So to answer the question: if you need a boost in your training and aren't looking at chains, bands, etc. because you're too lazy to change the real reason you are stuck, then by all means. But you better have some shoulders, traps, erectors, and quads on you. No one with a chicken-wing scap needs to put a chain on the bar.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...halk_volume_11

[arian11]

I'm not a big proponent of box squatting, but I'm weak as sh!t. But a raw lifter could use the box squat as an accessory lift rather than a main lift. So you do your regular raw squat so you can practice technique and then can do low box squats to break up the eccentric/concentric phases and get stronger without the stretch reflex. Just like people use front squats as an accessory lift on their squat days.

[JacobRothenberg]

I'm not a big proponent of box squatting, but I'm weak as sh!t. But a raw lifter could use the box squat as an accessory lift rather than a main lift. So you do your regular raw squat so you can practice technique and then can do low box squats to break up the eccentric/concentric phases and get stronger without the stretch reflex. Just like people use front squats as an accessory lift on their squat days.

my squat went from 365 to 455 in 6 months with box squats playing a big part in my training. naggers please

[Torrtrefireto]

my squat went from 365 to 455 in 6 months with box squats playing a big part in my training. naggers please

But you squat high in training

[brentwillisbgw]

The first year I did Westside my meet squat went from 535 to 700. During that time about 95% of my squat training consisted of box squats. I have no idea what it would have been if I had not done box squats, but I was pretty happy with the results.

I will admit, though, that I was an extremely quad-dominant squatter with almost zero posterior chain before I started Westside and box-squats. I think addressing that weakness was largely responsible for my squat's huge jump.

[chicago]

I'm not a big proponent of box squatting, but I'm weak as sh!t. But a raw lifter could use the box squat as an accessory lift rather than a main lift. So you do your regular raw squat so you can practice technique and then can do low box squats to break up the eccentric/concentric phases and get stronger without the stretch reflex. Just like people use front squats as an accessory lift on their squat days.

100% agree. not a bad idea for a raw squatter to use a wider stance and squat down to a box as an accessory movement in order to hit their glutes, hams, and lower back to a greater degree. if nothing else, what can it hurt?

[Black_Spit]

my squat went from 365 to 455 in 6 months with box squats playing a big part in my training. naggers please

I don't squat as much as you either SPF, but I've cycled in periods of Box Squats (even exclusively) for a month at a time and came back to a stronger squat with better form. I've done this twice I think.

[chicago]

The first year I did Westside my meet squat went from 535 to 700. During that time about 95% of my squat training consisted of box squats. I have no idea what it would have been if I had not done box squats, but I was pretty happy with the results.

I will admit, though, that I was an extremely quad-dominant squatter with almost zero posterior chain before I started Westside and box-squats. I think addressing that weakness was largely responsible for my squat's huge jump.

and there you go.

[arian11]

my squat went from 365 to 455 in 6 months with box squats playing a big part in my training. naggers please

I went from 303 to 380 in 4 months by just squatting 3 times a week. We'll see how long it takes me to get to 455 doing the same thing. Starting Smolov mesocycle next week so I can break 400 as soon as possible.