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09-21-2011, 07:08 AM #31
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09-21-2011, 07:24 AM #32
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09-21-2011, 07:42 AM #33
he set them up to fail. also note that in the biblical account the serpent tells the truth and god doesn't. Having no knowledge of good or evil, they cannot be faulted for their mistake. God told them they would die that very day if they consumed the fruit; they didn't. they lived for 900 more years. The serpent told them they would gain knowledge, and they did. Absolutely ridiculous story. You can't even read the first two chapters of the bible without seeing just how ridiculous it is.
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear. " - Thomas Jefferson
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09-21-2011, 08:15 AM #34
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09-21-2011, 08:23 AM #35
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09-21-2011, 08:29 AM #36
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09-21-2011, 09:02 AM #37
I didn't bother to read the article because it's irrelevant. Even if god chose to not know what they were going to do, it doesn't mean they have free will. A designer's knowledge is irrelevant to whether or not it's design will be one capable of free will. Free will is simply an impossible concept because you can't not design yourself, and therefore, really have no control over what ultimately leads to your actions. It just makes god a bigger dick if he punishes people for things they can't control, and he's even worse if he creates someone to do something he knows they're going to do, and then, punishes them for it.
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09-21-2011, 09:41 AM #38
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Sometimes, a paragraph just isn't enough. When I use to lift, I was fairly strong (max bench 450lbs at 185lbs). However, I very rarely did indeed bench that when I went to the gym. Most of the time I chose not too. Did that mean I couldn't bench 450lbs?
Eve is pointed out to have been deceived in the bible (Genesis !1 Timothy 2:14; 2 Cor. 11:3). Yet, Adam was not. He went along with his wife, for unknown reasons. We suspect it was his strong love for Eve as to why he did so, however the bible doesn't say. It wasn't Jehovah's fault that the two of them chose to disobey. Isn't it possible Jehovah can select to use His powers when He see's fit? Why does He have to exercise those powers every awakening moment of His existence? I don't understand how that would negate the fact He does indeed have said powers. If you read the article it points out why Jehovah tempers when to use those said qualities.
Just because Eve was deceived, doesn't excuse her choice to disobey. My children go thru the same experiences. When they are deceived, yet disobey, I still met out punishment for said disobedience. Jehovah forewarned Adam what the consequences was for disobeying in regards to eating from the forbidden tree. He knew full well death would be the outcome. If Adam would have chose not to go along with Eve, he would have remained alive. I could understand your point, if Jehovah would have NOT warned them in advance what the consequences were going to be.
Why didn't Jehovah execute them on the spot? He had the right to do so. Let me know what you think about this question.
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09-21-2011, 09:52 AM #39
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He didn't know. He chose to wait it out. As far as punishing people for what they cannot control, this is a cop out for ones who wish to do what is wrong. However, Jehovah has provided a way out for ALL of mankind (Adam's offspring) to redeem themselves and attain everlasting life. He did this immediately after Adam and Eve committed the act of disobedience (Genesis 3:15).
In the future AKR, please refrain from the foul language, it''s extremely offensive to me. I would greatly appreciate it. It also makes a person look younger than what they are. It's no way in conversing with reasonable people.
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09-21-2011, 09:55 AM #40
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09-21-2011, 10:05 AM #41
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09-21-2011, 10:10 AM #42
First of all lets nip this immoral crap that God has the right to do whatever he wants because he's God. He did not have the right to execute Adam and Eve, and he doesn't have the right to judge, execute, etc anyone. This analogy with God as some sort of parental authority figure fails because say if my parents beat me and their only excuse was that they their my parents and they can do what they want. Well that's completely immoral, and that's essentially what you're saying God's excuse is, and it's a terrible one.
Eve being deceived is exactly what should excuse her from disobeying God, it isn't her fault that she came into contact with the damn devil. So what if he warned them? And no God can't turn off his omnipresence, that's one of the more stupid apologetics I've heard even sillier than your cloud thing in the other thread. He can use his powers when he sees fit but he's omnipresent and omniscient than that means he's constantly aware and present of what is going on in existence, there's no good reason for him to turn it off if it's a part of his nature. The very definition of omnipotence when related to god implies God can do all things consistent with his nature and he cannot do all things inconsistent with his nature, so turning off his omnipresence would be something he can't do.
So yes, unless you say God is not omnipresent and not omniscient, the fall of man is ultimately his fault because he saw it coming and didn't do anything about it.'Prior to the Department of Education, there was no illiteracy'
- Stizzel
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09-21-2011, 10:11 AM #43
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09-21-2011, 10:12 AM #44
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09-21-2011, 10:16 AM #45
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09-21-2011, 10:19 AM #46
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09-21-2011, 10:20 AM #47
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09-21-2011, 11:22 AM #48
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09-21-2011, 12:08 PM #49
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09-21-2011, 12:10 PM #50
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09-21-2011, 12:16 PM #51
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09-21-2011, 12:21 PM #52
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Well, the article I posted gives you some insight into this, did you read it? It's not my argument, it's the bibles view. You can't expect Jehovah to do what YOU feel is appropriate. He is by far superior to you. Christians go by the example of His dear son Christ Jesus as best we can. We don't go by what we FEEL.
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09-21-2011, 12:25 PM #53
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09-21-2011, 12:32 PM #54
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09-21-2011, 12:35 PM #55
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09-21-2011, 12:38 PM #56
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09-21-2011, 12:38 PM #57
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09-21-2011, 12:45 PM #58
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09-21-2011, 12:46 PM #59
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09-21-2011, 12:48 PM #60
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I haven't the slightest clue as to why your God would kill a woman for looking at a city or commit genocide in Egypt out of spite. Maybe he's just a jerk like that?
That's a matter of opinion. I submit that it has it's place to show disdain or other passionate emotions.You bring the pepper, I'll bring the Angus.
"People will kill you over time, and how they'll kill you is with tiny, harmless phrases, like 'be realistic.' "
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