Deloading, dual-factor, overtraining, regulation of training...some thoughts

[John Prophet]

We have discussed deloading a few times before http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ight=deloading and http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ight=deloading

I mentioned some ideas I have about training based on Russian weightlifting theory. Essentially the main idea I like is their "train 3 hard weeks then an easier week." This is also patterned out in the Sheiko powerlifting routines.

I just wanted to give a little update on my training with some thoughts on deloading and how to regulate your own training. I have been posting on this forum since around 2006 and I have been training on and off since around 1982 when I was 15. In that time, how many thousands of times have I heard the word "overtraining?" Too many I guess. We all have seen hundreds of threads where someone lists out their routine and asks "is this overtraining?" or maybe they ask "whats the best split?" or maybe "how many sets should I do for arms?" They ask this AS IF anyone on Earth could give them an answer. I dont think anyone can answer those questions because the questions are wrong to start with. A person has to find out those things on their own.

So how to do that? Well they usually just ask the forum or they just pick a split and thats that. They say things like "I can only do 8 sets per bodypart...anymore and i'll overtrain." Wow, thats amazing, ALL of their bodyparts have exactly the same training tolerance. What a coinkydink. Or "I need 5 days recovery before working the bodypart again." Even that statement is shallow because they are referring to each bodypart as opposed to looking at the overall body as a system. The mistake most people make is that they only think of training in terms of "a week." Thats why we see all of the arguments about "whats better, 1x,2x,or 3x per week?" There is more to training than "a week." We need to think more in terms of at least a months worth of training. We can also think of things such as phases, blocks, periods, cycles etc. People spend all their time getting the "perfect" split and number of sets per bodypart for that week. As if they will do that forever...as if their body wont adapt to it. As if one week out of a year really matters THAT much.

To get beyond the "one week" hyperfocus we have to enter the realm of "dual factor" theory. Dual factor, or the "fitness-fatigue" model, states that as you train you gain fitness but you also build fatigue as a by product of training. Or from experience you can say you get stronger but you also start getting a little beat-up feeling. Of course the cool thing is that the fitness gained is longer lasting than the fatigue that builds up. So one can deload at certain points to allow the fatigue to dissipate while the strength gains remain. This is where the Russians developed their ideas about "3 hard weeks then an easier week." They learned that an athlete under a serious training load should go about 3 weeks and then back off on the 4th week. The assumption being made was that the athlete under that heavy loading would NOT be fully recovering from the workouts and that fatigue would build up. They called that kind of loading "concentrated loading." They felt that experienced athletes needed that heavy concentrated loading to make further progress because their bodies had become hardened to training.

The Russians also used a lower type of loading called "distributed loading." The idea there was that the athlete WOULD more or less recover fully from workout to workout. This was used for lower class athletes who didnt yet need the heavy concentrated loading. Even with the lighter "distributed loading" the Russians felt that 5-6 weeks of continous training was the limit and then a deload week was needed. Do you see how they thought beyond "whats the best split?" or "how many sets per bodypart?"

So how can any of this be applied? Glad you asked. I'll tell what my approach is at this point. I definitely do "3 weeks then a deload week." That way I can push myself HARD and not have too many worries like "gee, is this too much?" or "am I recovering?" The answer is, no, im not fully recovering from week to week. Thats what the deload week is for. The first week after a deload one feels fine and dandy and hungry to train. If he pushes himself hard he wont feel so spunky after that 3rd week, though he will undoubtedly have made nice gains. Thats why to me its foolish to post a routine and ask "is this overtraining?" You WONT KNOW if its "overtraining" until you are 2-3 weeks in. A fresh and well rested athlete can do almost ANYTHING for one week and feel great. But ask him after 3 weeks of it. If he has pushed hard those 3 weeks he will be ready for a break. If he feels all chipper after three weeks then one must ask did he train hard enough to make real gains.

So I was out of the gym for a few years for whatever reasons. I got back into it this year but at first I just had fun doing upperbody stuff, nothing too serious. Then I wanted to start back on squats and deads. So my 3rd squat session I strained my back BAD with only 225 lol. Had to stay out of the gym for a week....that functioned as a natural deload week. That was the week of 6-20-11. The week before I turned 44. That injury was a blessing in disguise because I became more focused and got a better plan together.

If you do the math you see that the deload week after the injury was 7 weeks ago. That means I then did 3 weeks then a deload week and I am now on the last week of my second 3 weeks with next week being another deload. So how is the training going? Its going quite well and I want to really emphasize the point that by doing 3 HARD weeks then a deload, followed by another 3 HARD weeks then a deload, I have a better idea of how my routine is working and also how my body is responding. Remember, when you put a routine together on paper it basically means nothing. You cant possibly look at it and figure out a thousand variables and actually know how it will work. Especially in my case because I was coming off of a layoff

As far as specifics, I am doing what I call an "off season" powerlifting routine. Its pretty high volume. Here is the split:

M-chest/delts/tris
Tue-legs/lowback
Thu-chest/delt/tri
Fri-back/lowback/hams

Here are more or less the workouts:

M/Thu
Rainbow press 3-4x5-8
Push press 3-4x2-5
cybex incline machine 4x4 done explosively from a dead stop using only medium weight
bench press 2" narrower than normal grip 3-4 sets around 5 reps working up in weight
bench with 2" wider than normal grip 3 sets 2-5 reps
dips 3-4 sets
pushdowns 3 sets

Tue
box squats 5-6 sets 3-5 reps
pause squats (no box) 2 sets Romanian deads 3x3-7
hack squats 3x5-7
leg ext 3x8-10
seated leg curl 3x8-10
adductor/abductor machine 3x10 each way

Fri
Bent rows 3x5-8 reps
Stiff legged deads 3-4x3-7 (stand on 45plate, use 25lb plates on bar, let back round over, last rep fully from rested on floor)
parallel pulldowns 3x6-10
heavy bb shrugs 3x8-10
rear delt machine 3x8-10
machine curls 3x6-10
db hammer curls 2x8-10



Also I go on "off" days and do weighted abs, weighted hypers, calves, rotator cuff etc. I do hypers pretty much every time I set foot in the gym, I do 'em with bodyweight for warmups but also do them weighted at least 2x per week

So my point in all of this is to illustrate the dual factor theory plus the "3 hard weeks then a deload" approach. The dual factor is illustrated by the fact that I am gaining strength and muscle tone quite nicely....but that also by the end of that 3rd week I am ready for the deload. This is they KEY thing though. By pushing hard enough I can judge my routine AND my body. How so? Easy, now that I am on my 3rd week of the 2nd cycle I can FEEL which bodyparts are getting a little overworked. By looking at the routine you can guess anyway. My triceps and low back are really fatigued. My hams and groin stay pretty sore. Shoulders are a little achey. Chest, lats, bis, quads, traps....they are obviously recovering well because they dont get fatigued.

So whats it prove? To me it proves that by pushing hard and then deloading you get to know your body and your abilities and limitations. I can now make adjustments in some logical way. If I feel the triceps are getting too beat down I can either drop a tri exercise altogether OR maybe just drop one out of week 2 or 3. Or if I want to keep the volume I can back off the intensity a bit. If I feel my low back is getting too stressed I can find ways to back that workload off.

As others have said in other threads, if you can train for months without a deload, you may not be pushing as hard as you think you are. I think we can all benefit by looking at monthly periods as opposed to weekly periods. Push hard for 3 weeks then deload a week. Analyze that month. Did u get stronger and bigger? Where are you hurting...where are you fresh? Where do you need to add or subtract work? If you do the 3 weeks and you feel as fresh as a daisy then what might that be telling you??? I think its telling you that you are leaving some gains on the table. Everyone talks about OVERtraining. Im thinking that maybe we dont really push ourselves THAT hard when it comes down to it.

To each his own, but for me if I am just "going till I feel I need a week off" then I am basically coasting and I am just going by subjective feelings and often people who say that are just going until they get bored. Getting bored doesnt sound like much of a plan to me.

Peace, JP

[10fairywings]

OMG John I have been searching for this. I used to be in epic shape when I was bodybuilding in the 1990's and then became ill, and I am having to start all over again. But I am excited about it, I started about a year ago properly then ended up with a frozen shoulder which I'm waiting for surgery on. Despite the shoulder I am still going to the gym and doing everything I can do. But Not seeing the results I would like, following a plan from here which is all about splits and rests. When I was bodybuilding with a vengeance before I had a Polish trainer who set my programme up and it was very different to anyone else I knew and it worked fast and furious, but I have been told that it isn't good for you. It is essentially what you have written above. She said I would recover to start with within a day because although the weights were heavy to me (newby) they weren't in the scheme of things heavy. So she had me doing a 5 day a week lifting programme which was full-body every day! Uping weight every week by a little, and resting at the weekends. The only CV was for warm-up about 20 mins on a rower doing what is now called HIIT. On the 4th week I would go in 3 times for CV only doing half an hour of HIIT rowing. Then week 1 would re-start. The programme weights and sets didn't alter for 3 months, and then she would add small changes. It worked so well for me, I saw good results within 2 weeks, and after a month I looked like I'd been doing it for ever, after 3 months I was brilliant shape and after a year I was comp standard. I was in my 30's when I started and now I am in my 40's and am just about to do this again, because it seems to be the only routine that really works for me. But I have been told by so many people that it is a bad programme. But rather than throw in the towel I'm going to listen to my little Polish trainer from back then. Interestingly, I work for the Marines in the UK and most of them think it's a good programme because they laugh when people talk about overtraining, as they train daily to extreme levels but take breaks periodically. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thanks for the post! Very interesting!

[boathead]

there is some really good stuff there, john. well reasoned and well written.

i've stuggled with the week "hyperfocus". it's just how life is structured i suppose. the best way i've found to combat it is simply to have a "rotation" of days.... an ABA BAB split. or ABC ABC, or even ABCD ABCD.... just take whatever is next in the order when i make it into the gym. by and large, that is how i do it these days.

i'm with you on the dual factor theory. the whole athletic world trains with dual factor....except it seems bodybuilders. i am not a bodybuilder. i do wonder if the natty bodybuilder might not be better off following dual factor instead of pure linear, single factor training.

and lastly, the de-load. it's always good for a reminder. i always hit it hard, and eventually grind to a halt under un-planned volition. i really should plan for it, and save the mental grind that i always encounter.

good post.

[Marius_Ursus]

That was a very good write-up John. Something else the Russian army and strength training gyms applied sometimes within the same workout is active recovery. In my experience it helps with whatever your interval of intense training is. I'm glad you wrote that piece above because I'd forgotten about active recovery in the parameters of doing it in a single workout.

My own intervals aren't regimented. I can feel the need for a deload coming on, and it varies anywhere from 4-12 weeks. I don't know why it fluctuates like that because my intensity doesn't vary. It might be my diet or sleep or both...

Anyway, thanks for the essay.

[Whiskeyjack]

Excellent post, John. A good, fulsome, and helpful expression on the deloading cycle with the dual factor (which I'd never heard of until you raised it). AND you used 'you' instead of 'u', which is a little blessing.



As I mentioned previously, I became an adherent to these ideas only on the happy coincidence of getting a cold and missing a week if workouts while you were at the same time touting the deload idea. When I returned to the gym I noticed that while I felt a bit shrunk, I was not only not, but I surged up in strength. The cold enforced a deload, permitting the accumulated fatigue (that 'beat up' feeling I'm about getting again now, 4 weeks later) to heal. Over the years I had noticed this, but never systematized it as you are advocating based on the Russian weightlifting methodologies.

So good work. There are all sorts of ways to deload but it helps to do so periodically.

[MadJasper]

Great stuff, John. In the past, I would have a hard time not being in the gym 5-6 days a week, even though it produced little or no results. When I started back this time, I did a 13 week program that essentially consited of 10,8,6,20 reps. I had gains, but not dramatic in any way. I dropped weight and appeared more toned, but did not look muscular at all. So I took 2 weeks off. I went back and started a new 8 week program and BAM!... big results. And again, I tool a few days off before started the one you helped me with and again, huge strengh gains. So I completely buy what your selling her... and I'm proof of concept. In fact, I was thinking of taking a week off after week 4, but I may rethink that and do a little more research. Thanks for you're insight, JP.

We have discussed deloading a few times before http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ight=deloading and http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ight=deloading

I mentioned some ideas I have about training based on Russian weightlifting theory. Essentially the main idea I like is their "train 3 hard weeks then an easier week." This is also patterned out in the Sheiko powerlifting routines.

I just wanted to give a little update on my training with some thoughts on deloading and how to regulate your own training. I have been posting on this forum since around 2006 and I have been training on and off since around 1982 when I was 15. In that time, how many thousands of times have I heard the word "overtraining?" Too many I guess. We all have seen hundreds of threads where someone lists out their routine and asks "is this overtraining?" or maybe they ask "whats the best split?" or maybe "how many sets should I do for arms?" They ask this AS IF anyone on Earth could give them an answer. I dont think anyone can answer those questions because the questions are wrong to start with. A person has to find out those things on their own.

So how to do that? Well they usually just ask the forum or they just pick a split and thats that. They say things like "I can only do 8 sets per bodypart...anymore and i'll overtrain." Wow, thats amazing, ALL of their bodyparts have exactly the same training tolerance. What a coinkydink. Or "I need 5 days recovery before working the bodypart again." Even that statement is shallow because they are referring to each bodypart as opposed to looking at the overall body as a system. The mistake most people make is that they only think of training in terms of "a week." Thats why we see all of the arguments about "whats better, 1x,2x,or 3x per week?" There is more to training than "a week." We need to think more in terms of at least a months worth of training. We can also think of things such as phases, blocks, periods, cycles etc. People spend all their time getting the "perfect" split and number of sets per bodypart for that week. As if they will do that forever...as if their body wont adapt to it. As if one week out of a year really matters THAT much.

To get beyond the "one week" hyperfocus we have to enter the realm of "dual factor" theory. Dual factor, or the "fitness-fatigue" model, states that as you train you gain fitness but you also build fatigue as a by product of training. Or from experience you can say you get stronger but you also start getting a little beat-up feeling. Of course the cool thing is that the fitness gained is longer lasting than the fatigue that builds up. So one can deload at certain points to allow the fatigue to dissipate while the strength gains remain. This is where the Russians developed their ideas about "3 hard weeks then an easier week." They learned that an athlete under a serious training load should go about 3 weeks and then back off on the 4th week. The assumption being made was that the athlete under that heavy loading would NOT be fully recovering from the workouts and that fatigue would build up. They called that kind of loading "concentrated loading." They felt that experienced athletes needed that heavy concentrated loading to make further progress because their bodies had become hardened to training.

The Russians also used a lower type of loading called "distributed loading." The idea there was that the athlete WOULD more or less recover fully from workout to workout. This was used for lower class athletes who didnt yet need the heavy concentrated loading. Even with the lighter "distributed loading" the Russians felt that 5-6 weeks of continous training was the limit and then a deload week was needed. Do you see how they thought beyond "whats the best split?" or "how many sets per bodypart?"

So how can any of this be applied? Glad you asked. I'll tell what my approach is at this point. I definitely do "3 weeks then a deload week." That way I can push myself HARD and not have too many worries like "gee, is this too much?" or "am I recovering?" The answer is, no, im not fully recovering from week to week. Thats what the deload week is for. The first week after a deload one feels fine and dandy and hungry to train. If he pushes himself hard he wont feel so spunky after that 3rd week, though he will undoubtedly have made nice gains. Thats why to me its foolish to post a routine and ask "is this overtraining?" You WONT KNOW if its "overtraining" until you are 2-3 weeks in. A fresh and well rested athlete can do almost ANYTHING for one week and feel great. But ask him after 3 weeks of it. If he has pushed hard those 3 weeks he will be ready for a break. If he feels all chipper after three weeks then one must ask did he train hard enough to make real gains.

So I was out of the gym for a few years for whatever reasons. I got back into it this year but at first I just had fun doing upperbody stuff, nothing too serious. Then I wanted to start back on squats and deads. So my 3rd squat session I strained my back BAD with only 225 lol. Had to stay out of the gym for a week....that functioned as a natural deload week. That was the week of 6-20-11. The week before I turned 44. That injury was a blessing in disguise because I became more focused and got a better plan together.

If you do the math you see that the deload week after the injury was 7 weeks ago. That means I then did 3 weeks then a deload week and I am now on the last week of my second 3 weeks with next week being another deload. So how is the training going? Its going quite well and I want to really emphasize the point that by doing 3 HARD weeks then a deload, followed by another 3 HARD weeks then a deload, I have a better idea of how my routine is working and also how my body is responding. Remember, when you put a routine together on paper it basically means nothing. You cant possibly look at it and figure out a thousand variables and actually know how it will work. Especially in my case because I was coming off of a layoff

As far as specifics, I am doing what I call an "off season" powerlifting routine. Its pretty high volume. Here is the split:

M-chest/delts/tris
Tue-legs/lowback
Thu-chest/delt/tri
Fri-back/lowback/hams

Here are more or less the workouts:

M/Thu
Rainbow press 3-4x5-8
Push press 3-4x2-5
cybex incline machine 4x4 done explosively from a dead stop using only medium weight
bench press 2" narrower than normal grip 3-4 sets around 5 reps working up in weight
bench with 2" wider than normal grip 3 sets 2-5 reps
dips 3-4 sets
pushdowns 3 sets

Tue
box squats 5-6 sets 3-5 reps
pause squats (no box) 2 sets Romanian deads 3x3-7
hack squats 3x5-7
leg ext 3x8-10
seated leg curl 3x8-10
adductor/abductor machine 3x10 each way

Fri
Bent rows 3x5-8 reps
Stiff legged deads 3-4x3-7 (stand on 45plate, use 25lb plates on bar, let back round over, last rep fully from rested on floor)
parallel pulldowns 3x6-10
heavy bb shrugs 3x8-10
rear delt machine 3x8-10
machine curls 3x6-10
db hammer curls 2x8-10



Also I go on "off" days and do weighted abs, weighted hypers, calves, rotator cuff etc. I do hypers pretty much every time I set foot in the gym, I do 'em with bodyweight for warmups but also do them weighted at least 2x per week

So my point in all of this is to illustrate the dual factor theory plus the "3 hard weeks then a deload" approach. The dual factor is illustrated by the fact that I am gaining strength and muscle tone quite nicely....but that also by the end of that 3rd week I am ready for the deload. This is they KEY thing though. By pushing hard enough I can judge my routine AND my body. How so? Easy, now that I am on my 3rd week of the 2nd cycle I can FEEL which bodyparts are getting a little overworked. By looking at the routine you can guess anyway. My triceps and low back are really fatigued. My hams and groin stay pretty sore. Shoulders are a little achey. Chest, lats, bis, quads, traps....they are obviously recovering well because they dont get fatigued.

So whats it prove? To me it proves that by pushing hard and then deloading you get to know your body and your abilities and limitations. I can now make adjustments in some logical way. If I feel the triceps are getting too beat down I can either drop a tri exercise altogether OR maybe just drop one out of week 2 or 3. Or if I want to keep the volume I can back off the intensity a bit. If I feel my low back is getting too stressed I can find ways to back that workload off.

As others have said in other threads, if you can train for months without a deload, you may not be pushing as hard as you think you are. I think we can all benefit by looking at monthly periods as opposed to weekly periods. Push hard for 3 weeks then deload a week. Analyze that month. Did u get stronger and bigger? Where are you hurting...where are you fresh? Where do you need to add or subtract work? If you do the 3 weeks and you feel as fresh as a daisy then what might that be telling you??? I think its telling you that you are leaving some gains on the table. Everyone talks about OVERtraining. Im thinking that maybe we dont really push ourselves THAT hard when it comes down to it.

To each his own, but for me if I am just "going till I feel I need a week off" then I am basically coasting and I am just going by subjective feelings and often people who say that are just going until they get bored. Getting bored doesnt sound like much of a plan to me.

Peace, JP

[John Prophet]

OMG John I have been searching for this. I used to be in epic shape when I was bodybuilding in the 1990's and then became ill, and I am having to start all over again. But I am excited about it, I started about a year ago properly then ended up with a frozen shoulder which I'm waiting for surgery on. Despite the shoulder I am still going to the gym and doing everything I can do. But Not seeing the results I would like, following a plan from here which is all about splits and rests. When I was bodybuilding with a vengeance before I had a Polish trainer who set my programme up and it was very different to anyone else I knew and it worked fast and furious, but I have been told that it isn't good for you. It is essentially what you have written above. She said I would recover to start with within a day because although the weights were heavy to me (newby) they weren't in the scheme of things heavy. So she had me doing a 5 day a week lifting programme which was full-body every day! Uping weight every week by a little, and resting at the weekends. The only CV was for warm-up about 20 mins on a rower doing what is now called HIIT. On the 4th week I would go in 3 times for CV only doing half an hour of HIIT rowing. Then week 1 would re-start. The programme weights and sets didn't alter for 3 months, and then she would add small changes. It worked so well for me, I saw good results within 2 weeks, and after a month I looked like I'd been doing it for ever, after 3 months I was brilliant shape and after a year I was comp standard. I was in my 30's when I started and now I am in my 40's and am just about to do this again, because it seems to be the only routine that really works for me. But I have been told by so many people that it is a bad programme. But rather than throw in the towel I'm going to listen to my little Polish trainer from back then. Interestingly, I work for the Marines in the UK and most of them think it's a good programme because they laugh when people talk about overtraining, as they train daily to extreme levels but take breaks periodically. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thanks for the post! Very interesting!

I think most "bodybuilders" havent been exposed to some of the ideas I mentioned because the ideas come from the athletic world, specifically the Eastern European athletic world. So of course they will say its no good, lol. If their whole basis is Muscle&Fitness mag then they may have never heard the word "deload."

Overall I think all of nature moves in cycles...as any woman surely knows.The sun and moon and planets have cycles, the tide comes in and out, the seasons move in cycles. Why do people then try to make their training "linear?"

Also remember that Vince Gironda had the same idea as the Russians way back when with his program of "train 21 days then rest 7 days" To me it fits bodybuilding or athletics since it is based on how the body tends to respond.

[HairyScandinavian]

Thanks for the write-up JP, very informative and thought provoking.

Curious what you personally do for deload method, which portions of the equation do you reduce and by how much?

[John Prophet]

In fact, I was thinking of taking a week off after week 4, but I may rethink that and do a little more research.

Well a deload isnt always a week OFF. Usually a deload means to cut the overall volume back a 3rd and use less weight etc. As others have said there are many ways to deload.

I have to go back and read some of my old Russian manuals because they discuss longer periods and limits. They felt there was a longer term limit of 18-22 weeks and after that the athlete would need a little bit longer of a break. This was based on what they called the "Current Adaptive Resources" or CAR. After those 18-22 weeks the body has pretty much exhausted it ability to adapt and it needs a rest period to consolidate at that new, higher level.

I am pretty sure the Russian weightlifters would take almost a month away from barbells at the end of their year. So if you take that month away you are left with 48 weeks. One can see that the "22 weeks" can be cycled through twice with a week or two break afterwards. And of course the "18-22 weeks" is made up of the little "3 hard, 1 easier" cycles

Of course the Russians planned everything around their main competition seasons. They planned to come to a peak during the week of the competition and then the natural break came after the competition and the cycle started over again. So they split the year in two for instance to peak for spring and fall competitions.

Now most of us wont be in the olympics but we can use a calander anyway. Everyone knows its hard to train thru the Christmas to New Years season. Fine, block that off on your calender as your end of year BIG deload. If you have a family vacation planned for June or July, block that off as well. If you can manage to split your year in two you can put little 2-4 week breaks at the end of those two halves. You can then break down those two halves into 4 week cycles with a mild or medium deload on the 4th week. If you do that, you can then more or less train "balls to the wall" without worrying too much about overtraining because you have rest and recovery built in.

Naturally you combine that structered approach with subjective feedback from your body. Me for example, after my first 3 weeks I deloaded but I wasnt THAT beat up feeling. today is the last day of my 2nd 3 weeks and I am a little more beat up in my triceps and low back. So I can project ahead that if I keep about the same training then ill be somewhat worn out at the end of my next 3 week period and ill need a more extensive deload. In that case I may train more like 2.5 weeks and do a 10 day deload. Most likely id max on some exercises and then take the 10 day deload and then id start the next phase with new exercises...which is what I planned to do anyway

Another example of using feedback would be if you jumped in over your head and did 3 hard weeks, took your deload week and then when you started the next 3 week phase you felt beat up in that first week. That would mean you probably just stepped up things TOO much and you need to back off the overall training stress. Conversely if you feel fresh at the end f the 3 weeks then you are shortchanging yourself on the effort level

[Swann74]

This was a fabulous write-up. You definitely hit on some major points that we all really need to consider a bit.

[John Prophet]

Thanks for the write-up JP, very informative and thought provoking.

Curious what you personally do for deload method, which portions of the equation do you reduce and by how much?

I am not as scientific as I should be on that, lol. Im pretty subjective. But usually I tend to DELOAD. I tend to not be very focused. Sometimes I do little more than goof off for a week while also getting some work accomplished. I may just blow off certain days altogether. If I am planning on switching to new exercises on my next phase then I might start breaking those new exercises in lightly on the deload week. Sometimes I do a little catching up on abs/calves/rotator cuff

One thing that is highly recommended is to use more 'GPP' on the deload week. GPP is "General Physical Preparedness" which can be more or less stuff we think of as "conditioning." Walking, light sprints, bodyweight stuff, medicine balls, hiking, other sports (without going overboard). Those activites help stimulate body recovery and refreshing.

Also of course that deload week is the best time for massages, whirlpools, sauna, steamrooms, therapy etc

[HairyScandinavian]

I am not as scientific as I should be on that, lol. Im pretty subjective. But usually I tend to DELOAD. I tend to not be very focused. Sometimes I do little more than goof off for a week while also getting some work accomplished. I may just blow off certain days altogether. If I am planning on switching to new exercises on my next phase then I might start breaking those new exercises in lightly on the deload week. Sometimes I do a little catching up on abs/calves/rotator cuff

One thing that is highly recommended is to use more 'GPP' on the deload week. GPP is "General Physical Preparedness" which can be more or less stuff we think of as "conditioning." Walking, light sprints, bodyweight stuff, medicine balls, hiking, other sports (without going overboard). Those activites help stimulate body recovery and refreshing.

Also of course that deload week is the best time for massages, whirlpools, sauna, steamrooms, therapy etc

Yeah I've pretty much just kinda floundered and guessed on my deloads thus far and always wondered if I should be a little more exact with them. Typically just doing the same routine for the most part, with less weight on the bar and minus a set or two. Thought about just doing a quick very light full body workout 2x that week and take the rest of the days off, etc...

I'll have to let my wife know about the massages though, let her know I'm making that part of my workout plan.

[John Prophet]

Yeah I've pretty much just kinda floundered and guessed on my deloads thus far and always wondered if I should be a little more exact with them. Typically just doing the same routine for the most part, with less weight on the bar and minus a set or two. Thought about just doing a quick very light full body workout 2x that week and take the rest of the days off, etc...

I'll have to let my wife know about the massages though, let her know I'm making that part of my workout plan.

Also of course every deload doesnt have to be the same. If you look at 8 weeks it could look like this:

3 weeks training
1 week mild deload
3 weeks training
1 week more extensive deload

or 13 weeks planned out:

3 weeks training
1 week mild deload
3 weeks training
1 week mild deload
3 weeks training
2 week extensive deload

[HairyScandinavian]

Also of course every deload doesnt have to be the same. If you look at 8 weeks it could look like this:

3 weeks training
1 week mild deload
3 weeks training
1 week more extensive deload

or 13 weeks planned out:
3 weeks training
1 week mild deload
3 weeks training
1 week mild deload
3 weeks training 2 week extensive deload

I really like the idea of planning everything out further ahead, might keep me on track a little longer without getting bored and changing things. I don't think I could ever take 2 weeks deload though, it kills me to do 1 lol. Typically I'll just wait until my grip starts failing and then deload, that seems to be my trigger. I'm going to do a 12 week run of 5x5 coming up when my cut is over and I'm going to put in the planned deloads in there somehow and see how my body responds. Appreciate all the pointers, tried to rep but gotta spread.

[10fairywings]

Thanks JP I'm all of a sudden fired up to do my old programme!!!!!!!!

[John Prophet]

some other threads were these ideas were discussed or outlined in detail. good stuff from 4-5 years ago.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=973527

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...g+overtraining

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...g+overtraining

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...g+overtraining

[drudixon]

Great article john. (could be an article imo). I just started wendler 5 3 1 and I see his program does the same thing; 3 hard 1 easy. Question, if you were doing sheiko squats, how would the split look then? I can guess how I'd so it, but I'd love to get your thoughts.

[John Prophet]

Great article john. (could be an article imo). I just started wendler 5 3 1 and I see his program does the same thing; 3 hard 1 easy. Question, if you were doing sheiko squats, how would the split look then? I can guess how I'd so it, but I'd love to get your thoughts.

Sheiko, how would I do what? the whole program is already written out. Pretty sure each 4 week sheiko phase has the 4th week as a deload. (less lifts, less weight etc)

[drudixon]

Sheiko, how would I do what? the whole program is already written out. Pretty sure each 4 week sheiko phase has the 4th week as a deload. (less lifts, less weight etc)

w.hoopsmixed that up with smolov. Was thinking of doing smolov squats once I hit 300 with squats, but want sure what to so with the other body parts.

[John Prophet]

w.hoopsmixed that up with smolov. Was thinking of doing smolov squats once I hit 300 with squats, but want sure what to so with the other body parts.

oh yeah, smolov. thats serious leg specialization. Im assuming it would be accompanied with more of a mild upperbody training and either no, or minimal deadlifting. But the best thing there is to check other peoples logs because many have done smolov. Also Tnation might have a thread or two dedicated to peoples smolov experiences

Smolov seems like it would be fun to at least be able to say u did it. My beef with it might be that it is SO extreme that its sort of impractical since you will have to limit upperbody training etc

[jayluk4600]

Great write up. I have a very odd workout routine and I dont have the time atm to post it. But the last 3 months I kinda been doing this.. hard 3 weeks 1 week totally chill. My lifts have blown up, while losing weight as well. I reckon I still have alot of bodyfat tho and like I said my workout routines are probably odd to most but I love this philosophy. It seems to work well for me as my goals in training are as vague as a politician on election night. I guess simply I just lift cause I like to and this fits me well with the one week of chill.

[John Prophet]

Great write up. I have a very odd workout routine and I dont have the time atm to post it. But the last 3 months I kinda been doing this.. hard 3 weeks 1 week totally chill. My lifts have blown up, while losing weight as well. I reckon I still have alot of bodyfat tho and like I said my workout routines are probably odd to most but I love this philosophy. It seems to work well for me as my goals in training are as vague as a politician on election night. I guess simply I just lift cause I like to and this fits me well with the one week of chill.

that 4th week deload is pretty practical for us older folks in the respect that we can start to plan "grownup stuff" such as painting, yardwork, graduations, travel, work stuff etc around that 4th week and we wont feel like we are missing anything if we have to miss a few days from the gym

And I think it is discussed in one of the linked to threads, but the way the Russians "waved" the volume and intensity up and down also can be used to give extra flexibility if one learns how to work with that "waving" process. I mentioned the phrase "3 hard weeks then an easier week" but that is a purposeful oversimplification. The 3 "hard" weeks are actually supposed to have variety built in as far as volume and intensity. The idea being that you need hard challenging workouts to stimulate new growth, but then you need smaller workouts for recovery, while medium workouts sort of hold the line. The good part is, there is a lot of flexibility as to how the volume and intensity can be "waved". That goes for the daily workouts as well as for the whole week itself. Of those 3 weeks, you might let the first one be fairly challenging, then the 2nd week be pretty mild for some recovery, then the 3rd week be an extreme effort. Or you could make the 1st week after a deload be a really hard week, the 2nd week be easier for recovery, the 3rd week have it step back up but not as much as the 1st week, then of course the 4th week is the deload.

A powerlifter may decide that he wants to do 15 reps above 90% on his bench press during the month. Well there is no law as to when he has to do those 10 reps. Lets say the 1st week he has good workouts but nothing magical. But then during the second week he has a great day going and thats where he works up to do those heavy reps above 90%. Fine. Of course during the 3rd week he wont need to go back up to 90% or above because he already got his 90% work in. He could have done that work in the 1st, 2nd, OR 3rd week depending on how he felt.

An example for bodybuilding could be like this. Lets say you look at your month and the 1st week you have some in-laws visiting and you will miss a few days from the gym in the middle of the week, the 2nd week is mostly open, the 3rd week you have a couple soccer games to attend but you wont have to miss the gym. In that case you might do this:

1st week
Fullbody workout on Mon and Friday, just hitting the basics

2nd week
4 or 5 day split, intense workouts for each bodypart, push yourself harder taking a few sets to failure

3rd week
4 day push pull split, decent volume but nothing too intense, no sets to failure

4th week
deload



Learning to wave the volume and intensity gives one a great advantage in flexibility. In this way one can "go with the flow" of life and not feel bad if a workout is missed or "off" a little bit because that missed or mild workouts fits into the scheme of things for constant gains

The linear idea of "add weight or reps each workout" is great....when it works. Its great after a layoff or for newbs but its harder and harder as one becomes more experienced. The "waving" model is more realistic in that its more a thing of "add weight or reps AT CERTAIN POINTS in the 3 week cycle." 3 steps forward and 1 step back is still 2 steps forward at the end of the month

[ironwill2008]

Good thread, JP.


Noobs can usually keep training for months on end and still make progress simply due to the fact that they're untrained, and their body/CNS will soak up the work like a sponge. After a period of time though, joints and attachments will start to show the effects of repeated training, and it becomes difficult for those slower-recovering tissues to keep up with the faster growing/recovering muscle tissue.

FWIW, I've been deloading on schedule for the past 17 years of training. I have no gym injuries to report, due in large part to the regular deloads. And while I'm not a powerlifter, I think it's imperative for anyone involved in any of the weight-training disciplines to routinely cut the loads back, and get some active recovery.

[Swann74]

FWIW, I've been deloading on schedule for the past 17 years of training. I have no gym injuries to report, due in large part to the regular deloads. And while I'm not a powerlifter, I think it's imperative for anyone involved in any of the weight-training disciplines to routinely cut the loads back, and get some active recovery.

And quite frankly, I think that this ^^^ observation is one of the most important things that this forum reiterates regularly. I went long periods of times in previous years without any kind of deload whatsoever, and would bang my head on the wall wondering why I couldn't break the plateau. One of the worst things that far too many of us suffer from is that when we started lifting, many coaches (or even some trainers) don't discuss the value of a proper deload. My football coach (who was the first one to prompt me to start lifting, in the 9th grade) never mentioned deload once. And since at the time I didn't educate myself, I really hindered my own success.

I appreciate the constant reinforcement and encouragement that I get from the forums these days regarding deloads. They really are vital practice.

[John Prophet]

And quite frankly, I think that this ^^^ observation is one of the most important things that this forum reiterates regularly. I went long periods of times in previous years without any kind of deload whatsoever, and would bang my head on the wall wondering why I couldn't break the plateau. One of the worst things that far too many of us suffer from is that when we started lifting, many coaches (or even some trainers) don't discuss the value of a proper deload. My football coach (who was the first one to prompt me to start lifting, in the 9th grade) never mentioned deload once. And since at the time I didn't educate myself, I really hindered my own success.

I appreciate the constant reinforcement and encouragement that I get from the forums these days regarding deloads. They really are vital practice.

the info about things such as deloading wasnt really circulating yet in our HS days. The only person with a clue in those days was Vince Gironda and maybe some powerlifters and Oly athletes who were exposed to Eastern Euro ideas.

You gotta realize how much "machoness" affects things such as football....where you have coaches telling kids that they are weak if they need water during practice etc etc, lol. That translates over into lifting quite well. There are some guys who were a little older than me who were more in ther prime in the 70's and early 80s and they are in pretty bad shape now as far as injuries etc and some of it is just from being macho and working thru pain constantly with no breaks etc. Im pretty sure the Good Lord knew what He was doing when He made the seasons.....with winter being a deload for the Earth, lol.

[JerryB]

Interesting post.

I developed my routines for bodybuilding which is no suited for strictly training for strength.

My approach for two decades has been alternating between a heavy week and a moderate week. The heavy week is training for emphasis on myofibrillar hypertrophy. The routines contain primarily of compound exercises with poundage to limit the repetition ranges from 4 to 8. A few isolation exercises are includes with reps in the 10 to 12 range. The heavy week is to enlarge myofibrillar volume by stimulating the synthesis of the actin and myosin filaments.

The moderate week’s emphasis is on sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. The routines consist of compound exercises with a few more isolation exercises. The poundage is reduced to limit the reps range from 12 to 20. The rep range depends on the particular muscle group and exercise. This training stimulates the growth of non-contractile proteins and elevates the enzymes that are involved in glycolysis and oxidative pathways.

The goals of the heavy and moderate weeks are to increase muscle volume. The heavy week does increase my strength. The progressive resistance principle is attempted for both weeks.

My personal approach to deloading is take a week or two breaks when I feel the need. That may be once every 6 to 8 months.