Kyle Pierce/LSUS/Kendrick Farris program

[Iberian80]

Don't overlook this post. Recruiting talent is almost as important as training.

Excellent point. You have to believe that China, Russia, Korea, Iran, anyplace but North America is doing a better job at recruiting athletes than we are.

[MadDogMalesh]

Excellent point. You have to believe that China, Russia, Korea, Iran, anyplace but North America is doing a better job at recruiting athletes than we are.

Its just not that its NOT nearly as big here as it is in other countries! One simple example is the fact that Rezazadeh had his wedding on national tv in Iran. Here in the US you would probably be surprised to find a weightlifter in the front of the paper unless he won the first gold in years or set a world record.

The USA cares much more about football, basketball and, baseball(probably even soccer) more than weightlifting. Kids here don't want to get into a sport that wont earn you women, make you money or something out of the norm. YET IMO we are the most influential sport when it comes to other sports & athletics whether people like it or not. Nearly any team sport will use the lifts we use or variants of them in some way. We are the sport of power and its what we do best and there are things to learn from it in other sports to build better athletes.

Like I said before its not so much as an appraised sport compared to other countries and what sports we have here. We can't say we don't have the picking pool as I am sure we have plenty of people who can get strong we are just lacking the resolve in people to become top level WL'ers. If we don't even have that it DOESN'T MATTER what fancy coach we have coaching our national team, it doesn't matter what fancy program we have it matters that we have people that are enthusiastic about this sport to begin with. We may have a few decent lifters in the U.S. but the rate that any hopefuls are coming up is very slow. Look at any other country such as china for example... they have TONS of lifters at all levels, I am not just talking about their medalists but they have hopefuls that will one day become those medalists. Say you have 5 medalists for china and 5 for the U.S. You will also have 10 Chinese hopefuls and 3 American hopefuls. For the sake of simplicity all are the age of 35 for the medalists and just finished their last Olympics and the hopefuls are all 19. Look who has more replacements! Any country where WL is more prominent will have more future champs, even if those 10 don't go to the Olympics they still might get 4 while the U.S. now has 1....

Hopefully I don't have to explain that example but I hope it shows why I don't think North America is more upright for weightlifting. Ive been told strength athletics(PL, SM, WL) are NOT sports many times by others in my school which shows there is no interest in our "sport", but that is an argument for another day.

[slowman41]

Ive got the "creating champions" ironmind tape showing Kolecki and Azinedze (sp?). Here are two guys who set world records but I didnt see any high-fives, no backflips, no hangers on in the gym cheering. It was pretty spartan.

you must not have seen the "siodme poty" video series with the polish team gearing up for beijing. Definitely laughing, jokes and some carrying on.

[slowman41]

also, as much as people want to deny it, drugs will always be a factor at the highest levels.

the russian "medicine" program reads just as complicated as the lifting program.

read the article on page 32 of this magazine: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15035355/V1%...2010%20PDF.pdf
then decide for yourself

[slowman41]

remember how amazed everyone was of Tatiana, the russian who lifted more than US men?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kUo-KOMsZ4

She got popped in 2006, and a 2 yr ban.

[John Prophet]

remember how amazed everyone was of Tatiana, the russian who lifted more than US men?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kUo-KOMsZ4

She got popped in 2006, and a 2 yr ban.

no disrespect, because all of u lift way more in oly than I ever will

for the sake of discussion, do u assume that all american athletes are squeeky clean??

if so u have a weak knowledge of history

----------------------

"its all drugs." Thats been the excuse forever now. Tarenenko said that if he had the drugs the Americans had that he'd be way stronger

There is the old story about Ken Patera. I dont know the exact quote but ill come pretty close. Something like "The only reason Alexeev beat me last time was because I couldnt afford his drug bill. Well this time that wont be a problem."

So what happened?? Alexeev beat him again anyway, lol.


drugs dont teach technique.

Seriously, ASSUMING for example that Farris is clean, are lack of drugs holding back his snatch?



again, no disrespect to anyone, I am just thinking out loud, lol. I want to see the USA win just as bad as anyone does

[John Prophet]

Its just not that its NOT nearly as big here as it is in other countries! One simple example is the fact that Rezazadeh had his wedding on national tv in Iran. Here in the US you would probably be surprised to find a weightlifter in the front of the paper unless he won the first gold in years or set a world record.

The USA cares much more about football, basketball and, baseball(probably even soccer) more than weightlifting. Kids here don't want to get into a sport that wont earn you women, make you money or something out of the norm. YET IMO we are the most influential sport when it comes to other sports & athletics whether people like it or not. Nearly any team sport will use the lifts we use or variants of them in some way. We are the sport of power and its what we do best and there are things to learn from it in other sports to build better athletes.

Like I said before its not so much as an appraised sport compared to other countries and what sports we have here. We can't say we don't have the picking pool as I am sure we have plenty of people who can get strong we are just lacking the resolve in people to become top level WL'ers. If we don't even have that it DOESN'T MATTER what fancy coach we have coaching our national team, it doesn't matter what fancy program we have it matters that we have people that are enthusiastic about this sport to begin with. We may have a few decent lifters in the U.S. but the rate that any hopefuls are coming up is very slow. Look at any other country such as china for example... they have TONS of lifters at all levels, I am not just talking about their medalists but they have hopefuls that will one day become those medalists. Say you have 5 medalists for china and 5 for the U.S. You will also have 10 Chinese hopefuls and 3 American hopefuls. For the sake of simplicity all are the age of 35 for the medalists and just finished their last Olympics and the hopefuls are all 19. Look who has more replacements! Any country where WL is more prominent will have more future champs, even if those 10 don't go to the Olympics they still might get 4 while the U.S. now has 1....

Hopefully I don't have to explain that example but I hope it shows why I don't think North America is more upright for weightlifting. Ive been told strength athletics(PL, SM, WL) are NOT sports many times by others in my school which shows there is no interest in our "sport", but that is an argument for another day.

There is another angle to this also. In Russia or China, if u slip by one step u have 10 guys ready to replace u. There is that vid online of Zhang Guozheng where his coach seemed to be intimidating him and letting him know that he may be on thin ice. Then Zhang set the unnofficial world record right there in that heavy pressure....just trying to make the team. of course later he got cut, much to his surprise

here we dont have that because there ARENT 20 guys ready to take the top guys place. Our top guys here are used to being "stars" for many years and they likely have always been the BMOC.

Thats why I wish we could have an exchange program where our guys could spend time with other teams just to soak up the flavor and maybe a better perspective

[raffiki]

Seriously, ASSUMING for example that Farris is clean, are lack of drugs holding back his snatch?

Of course.

[Quarter Nelson]

It brings up an interesting point. If nothing else Pierce is able to get his athletes to the point where they are as good if not better than other US lifters using a variety of different programs. Yet still no matter what program is being used here in the US our lifters are still about 10% away from world medal conention.

1. Is it possible that other countries training is 10% better than ours? That seems impossible. 10% is a lot.
2. Do we need more time? Most countries that win have a tradition and stable program setup to produce champions. Looking at some of our jr. lifters we may be on that road now. Cavaet: A jr. world champion doesn't always equal a world champion.

I am not buying into the they have better athletes argument. I don't know enough about drug use in other countries to claim anything one way or the other.

Here's the main reason why other countries consistently outlift, and will continue to outlift the US on the international scene:



And I'm not talking about the past (pre-90's), I'm talking about the present and the future.

[John Prophet]

yep, every country gets substances that we cant get right. No american would ever try to cheat. America is not known for drugs or drug usage or drug problems or pharma prowess. We dont have any huge pharma companies here like they do in, say, Moldova or Cuba. We havent had steroid scandals in baseball, football etc

cuba, moldova, mexico, france, latvia, china, russia, poland, japan, korea, bulgaria, belarus, turkey, new zealand, etc

they r ALL cheaters and America is the only honest country

and ALL of these countries pay their athletes millions

and ALL of these countries screen all 5 year olds and guide them into the sport they r suited to

and ALL of these countries have top notch equipment while our guys lift in ymcas

[nova6868]

yep, every country gets substances that we cant get right. No american would ever try to cheat. America is not known for drugs or drug usage or drug problems or pharma prowess. We dont have any huge pharma companies here like they do in, say, Moldova or Cuba. We havent had steroid scandals in baseball, football etc

cuba, moldova, mexico, france, latvia, china, russia, poland, japan, korea, bulgaria, belarus, turkey, new zealand, etc

they r ALL cheaters and America is the only honest country

and ALL of these countries pay their athletes millions

and ALL of these countries screen all 5 year olds and guide them into the sport they r suited to

and ALL of these countries have top notch equipment while our guys lift in ymcas

Of course the US has pharmaceutical prowess. A good example of this is the documentary "Bigger, Stronger, Faster." We give our students amphetamines, our soccer moms antidepressants, even our artists take performance-enhancing drugs. And as far as the recreational bodybuilding & fitness community goes, we're probably as juiced as anyone.

However, our pharmaceutical companies don't actually make that much in the way of AAS, or at least market it in the US. Most of the AAS on "the scene" are coming from overseas drug companies who are still pumping out these products in large quantities. These drugs are actually much easier to obtain in Eurasia.

Of course there are cheaters here in the US. There always will be. But do we have as many cheaters as Bulgaria, Iran, or Greece? We've had one lifter popped in the last 8 years. They've had 15+ lifters popped.

I'm not saying drugs are the entire answer. Clearly that isn't the case. Back in the 60s we went head-to-head with the Russians as far as drug use, and they still owned us. But... I would also say that their training regimen was clearly superior to ours at the time.

I do think there's something to be said for the "international attitude" in the infamous training halls of Bulgaria, Russia, etc. I love the videos of these guys making national-record lifts in training, and hardly anyone takes notice. Even when they make a world-record lift in training, it seems like nobody cares. The coach just gives them a look as if to say "Yep... add 5 kilos." They just make those type of lifts routine. When you see them come out in competition with a huge first attempt and make it look like a joke... it's because it is a joke. It's probably a weight they've lifted every day right after coffee & cigarettes.

I'm all for celebrating accomplishments; we have great athletes who deserve respect and acknowledgment. But it seems that perhaps too often in the US we go completely nuts in celebrating lifts that would be considered a warm-up weight in some of those famed training halls. It's like when you see some of these kids who go all-out for their junior high graduation.

[crackyflipside]

Here's the main reason why other countries consistently outlift, and will continue to outlift the US on the international scene:



And I'm not talking about the past (pre-90's), I'm talking about the present and the future.

This is a huge factor but you also have to realize how much more intense the programming is before they even start using steroids. The 12-14times/wk comes before the steroids.

[Prevtzer]

So, you have come to a conclusion that your guy lifts 5 times a week while rest of the world lifts 15 times a week, you stated that you are lacking of lifters and that you have no history and you are still looking for reasons why sou suck...

Maybe wait for Pat Mendes to show you how it's done, and you can't say that he is not using.

[NorwichGrad]

So, you have come to a conclusion that your guy lifts 5 times a week while rest of the world lifts 15 times a week, you stated that you are lacking of lifters and that you have no history and you are still looking for reasons why sou suck...

Maybe wait for Pat Mendes to show you how it's done, and you can't say that he is not using.

Speaking of Pat, does anybody know if he will represent the US or Brazil?

[NorwichGrad]

There is another angle to this also. In Russia or China, if u slip by one step u have 10 guys ready to replace u. There is that vid online of Zhang Guozheng where his coach seemed to be intimidating him and letting him know that he may be on thin ice. Then Zhang set the unnofficial world record right there in that heavy pressure....just trying to make the team. of course later he got cut, much to his surprise

here we dont have that because there ARENT 20 guys ready to take the top guys place. Our top guys here are used to being "stars" for many years and they likely have always been the BMOC.

Thats why I wish we could have an exchange program where our guys could spend time with other teams just to soak up the flavor and maybe a better perspective

Yeah, I remember watching the vid. It kinda reminds of the manufacturing factories in China. Horrible conditions. If one production worker passes out, oh well, no big deal for them. They drag the body out and then they pick one of many fresh bodies waiting outside the gates for a job.

[slowman41]

imo, this topic has been beat to death endlessly, the reasons are obvious why the US is not top-tier in weightlifting, and is no longer worth arguing.

[John Prophet]

the reasons are obvious why the US is not top-tier in weightlifting,

and IYO those reasons are?

[nova6868]

Ok, so here's a topic change.

Was anyone else floored to see that people are using injectable ecdysterone around competition time? I suppose there is no test for it, but...

Wasn't that a big supplement here a few years ago? And it didn't really do anything? Or did we have the dose and/or route of administration wrong?

[olyw8lifter]

Ok, so here's a topic change.

Was anyone else floored to see that people are using injectable ecdysterone around competition time? I suppose there is no test for it, but...

Wasn't that a big supplement here a few years ago? And it didn't really do anything? Or did we have the dose and/or route of administration wrong?

I did see that!! However, even back then it still produced results, but the recommended dosage was WAY too low!! I never tried it, but for the oral versions, you needed to take much more than the recommended doses!!

Plus, they said in the article that the injectable version is far more potent!!!

[BadSnatch]

Other countries celebrate when they win gold, we celebrate when a lifter does a mediocre lift in training then we tell ourselves its alright cause other countries use drugs.

[John Prophet]

Other countries celebrate when they win gold, we celebrate when a lifter does a mediocre lift in training then we tell ourselves its alright cause other countries use drugs.

I was really shocked to hear that there was drug usage in columbia

[raffiki]

Other countries celebrate when they win gold, we celebrate when a lifter does a mediocre lift in training then we tell ourselves its alright cause other countries use drugs.

Yes. You and John have figured it all out. You are truly super-human. I look forward to the extraordinary results you two will produce.

[someonefat]

lol how does steroid use always come up you guys treat it like magic or any top athlete could not use. If teenage kids can use steroids in America a top athlete could also.

I know many people who run cycles and you might not even guess they lift because they don't train properly. The best countries train properly to produce champions thats why they medal and we don't. Its pretty much as simple as that. Drugs are not the reason we suck we could be taking twice as much as other countries and we would still suck until we learn to train properly.

[John Prophet]

Yes. You and John have figured it all out. You are truly super-human. I look forward to the extraordinary results you two will produce.

Its not about being super human. Its about being able to objectively look at a situation and see where mistakes are being made.

If Americans continue to puff their chests out and gloat while the medal drought continues....then the medal drought will continue

I guess im an old fuddy duddy, but I dont see where a guy who lifts in the B group internationally has a lot of room to showboat for the camera. Its THAT type of living in a dream world that holds us back.

Look at Alexsey Yufkin in this vid. IMO its a thing of beauty. youd think dude is stoic but he is not. He has self control. He does a small little fist pump after his 3rd snatch but as a champ he knows that he is only halfway done. He celebrates AFTER he wins the gold and u can see that he has plenty of passion and emotion




Farris does all that showboating crap and he isnt even in the "a" group internationally afaik. Its just makes the USA look silly. As a coach id ask him to show some restraint. Maybe if he trained harder he'd have less excess energy for all that high jumping after his openers etc?? Now I know some of u guys worship Farris so I am sorry for being honest. But if u want to man-worship, at least look to and learn from the best

[olyw8lifter]

Someonefat, I completely agree!! Although there is some difference in drugs, the biggest difference is the intensity and true dedication to training, not to mention technique and strength, is what really makes a bigger difference IMHO!!

And John, I agree with you too!! Too many of our lifters get all excited when they hit substandard weights!! However, Farrid did lift in the A session in the last Olympics and finished 6th!! Not saying that performance earns him "king of platform" status, though. If he gets a gold, THEN he earns that right to call himself "King of the Platform"!!!

We do have some really good lifters starting to get to the point of being competitive on the International scene!! That is something to be proud of!!

[John Prophet]

Someonefat, I completely agree!! Although there is some difference in drugs, the biggest difference is the intensity and true dedication to training, not to mention technique and strength, is what really makes a bigger difference IMHO!!

And John, I agree with you too!! Too many of our lifters get all excited when they hit substandard weights!! However, Farrid did lift in the A session in the last Olympics and finished 6th!! Not saying that performance earns him "king of platform" status, though. If he gets a gold, THEN he earns that right to call himself "King of the Platform"!!!

We do have some really good lifters starting to get to the point of being competitive on the International scene!! That is something to be proud of!!

I thought he lifted in B and got 8th?? Hard to find vids of it, I havent seen any yet.



yeah, 8th http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer...ts?eventId=201

says 8th, then it says "group 1 1st". So im assuming that means he lifted in the "b" group and got 1st in that session. That would help explain why no vids seem to pop up (unless im blind, lol)

[GoJu]

I agree with the premise of the thread for the most part, American lifters and their fans seem to be too arrogant for their own and they have no right to be right now. However celebrating cause you're happy you made a lift or what not is fine, just don't go spouting off "I'M NUMBER ONE!" when you're not. Everybody does celebrate though even the Chinese:

I thought he lifted in B and got 8th?? Hard to find vids of it, I havent seen any yet.



yeah, 8th http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer...ts?eventId=201

says 8th, then it says "group 1 1st". So im assuming that means he lifted in the "b" group and got 1st in that session. That would help explain why no vids seem to pop up (unless im blind, lol)

He lifted 160/202, he won the b group and got 8th overall.

[Iberian80]

Hui's celebration was almost as well executed as his lift. The backflip is always good for looking cool and the military style salute is sure to ring home with his fans in nationalistic China. Plus celebrating a WR left of 198 when you are 69kg is a requirement. If he didn't celebrate people would wonder what is wrong with him. Which would actually be pretty scary next time you went to lift against him.

[olyw8lifter]

I thought he lifted in B and got 8th?? Hard to find vids of it, I havent seen any yet.



yeah, 8th http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer...ts?eventId=201

says 8th, then it says "group 1 1st". So im assuming that means he lifted in the "b" group and got 1st in that session. That would help explain why no vids seem to pop up (unless im blind, lol)

My bad, I must have remembered wrong!!

[nova6868]

Plus celebrating a WR left of 198 when you are 69kg is a requirement. If he didn't celebrate people would wonder what is wrong with him. Which would actually be pretty scary next time you went to lift against him.

Haha. Actually, that would have been awesome. Lift a WR, then just stroll off the platform as if not a single f*ck was given.