"What If I were an olympic coach" By Louie Simmons

[Kirra]

Check this out.

What If I were an Olympic Coach
by, Louie Simmons

In 1968 Jan Talts of the USSR said his training consisted of 90% power work and 10% actual competitive lifts. By doing this, he became one of the greatest lifters of all time. I recall him moving up to 110 kg. (actual weight roughly 100 kg.) and soundly defeating Bob Bednarski at the 1970 World Championships in Columbus, Ohio. If this system worked for him, why not me? Thus by using the training of the Soviets and modifying the special exercises to fit into powerlifting, I have developed the strongest power club in the world. In the United States, Olympic lifters have the Olympic Training Center, a national coach, and money in their budget. In fact, the Olympic lifter has everything that a powerlifter does not, yet the United States powerlifters rule the world, while our Olympic lifter brothers drag up the rear at international meets. I ask you, how can this be? Olympic lifters have a lot of excuses, none valid. This brings me to the title "What if" I trained Olympic Lifters?

If I were an Olympic lifting coach, I would first teach how one should train. A major mistake is doing the two lifts too often. Good training requires variety. I have said before that everything works, but nothing works forever.

The dynamic method with submaximal weight should be employed. This method is very effective with the correct percentages. I would recommend using weights between 60 and 80% of max to start with. A lifter who can clean 400 would start with 240 for the first week of training. The lifter would perform 12 cleans with short rest periods between sets (45 seconds to start with) and then 12 power snatches with the same percent and the same rest time between sets. If a lifter's best snatch is 330, the weight is 198.

Jump 5% a week, and repeat 12 cleans and snatches at 65%. At 70% and 75% reduce the lifts to nine each. When you reach 80%, I recommend eight lifts each, for a total of 16. You are now employing the dynamic method with submaximal weight. You have also established a rest period. When using relatively light weights, short rest intervals are crucial. One should never let the body recuperate. If this happens, the athlete is doing nothing. Naturally, the lifter must use maximum force and always try to accelerate the bar.

The lifts should only be done once time per week. Lifters in the United States spend too much time on the quick lifts. The reasons is twofold. First, the bar speed is too quick, for the most part. A weight can move too fast to develop max force. The weight selection is critical. As regards the velocity-force curve (a concept you should be familiar with), the bar should have a sufficient amount of weight to achieve the force factor and a certain amount of speed to supply the velocity. If you understand this, you may begin to see the problem. The olympic lifter may move the bar so fast that force is neglected.

Remember what I said about weight selection. Let me illustrate by talking about throwing an object with a certain arm speed. Arm movement represents your absolute strength. If I throw a whiffle ball, it won't go very far because it's too light for max force to exist. Now if I throw a shot put, it doesn't go very far either because it's too heavy; thus no velocity is developed. However, if I throw a baseball, it will go a great distance because I have found a balance between force and velocity. This balance is found by doing velocity work with the Olympic lifts, and force work with special exercises in a controlled method known as the conjugate method. Foreign lifters have said the U.S. lifters lack strength, and I see the same thing. But no one seems to have an answer. I do. To suceed at weight lifting, a number of things are required. First you must be very strong.

This is where special exercises come in. If you think you must clean, for example, to be good at the clean, you are wrong, at least partly. I have seen a strong man clean 250 the first time he tried. How did he make that initial clean with no formal training? It was done through other physical activity. If he only concentrated on the clean, it is doubtful that he would ever double his effort to 500. However, if he used special exercises to develop the correct pulling muscles, he would have a much better chance.

It is known that to become a better miler, one has to increase his ability to sprint as well as increase stamina to the point of performing more and more work by doing multiple sets of runs at specific distances. At the same time, the rest periods between runs must be shortened. Also special exercises must be done to advance his progress. This is true in weightlifting as well.

The second reason why too much time on the quick lifts is that if a lifter cleans and snatches all the time, it can lead to overdevelopment in some major muscle groups, while neglecting others. I'm sure that if you line up five weightlifters in a row, you will find that some have better traps, while lacking erector size, and some may have huge glutes, while others have hardly any glute development. This is because they have different structures. Special exercises can counteract this.

When using the conjugate method, you must work your weaknesses first. If your traps are the weak link, work them first with pulls from boxes, snatch grip deadlift shrugs, or one-arm snatches. You will develop max force through heavy weights lifted at a slow tempo. If your pulls, good mornings, back raises, squats, etc., go up, your clean and jerk and snatch will go up as well.

We have a junior (22 year old) 275 pounder who is the only junior to hold the open world record in the bench press at 728.5 pounds. He actually exceeded the 308 world record, the only man to do this. He trains the bench press with 365 for eight to ten sets of triples, barely 50% of his max. How is this possible? This is accomplished through special exercises for the bench press. The triples are done in a very explosive manner, followed by triceps, delt, and lat work. The second workout consists of rack work, floor press, or board press for a max single. We don't care how slow or hard the lifts are on this day. This is the max effort method. We don't even care if a lift is missed, because at least he is putting forth maximum effort. He will do a certain major exercise for two or three weeks and then switch. By doing this, he maintains velocity on one day and max effort on the other day 52 weeks a year.

[Kirra]

(page 2)

What's my point? You can do the same, by doing the multiple sets with submaximal weights and building explosive strength, and build amazing brute strength throughout the year with pulls off at least four different height boxes. Pick a certain box and max out for two or three weeks. Then switch to a different box and repeat. The pulls should be followed by some type of good morning. There should be a wide variety of exercises to choose from, and the number of exercises should be limited to four or five per workout. Don't do what you like to do; rather do what you need to do.

I am amazed to hear that the squat is overrated as far as developing the Olympic lifts. Remember Paul Anderson? He was an unreal squatter. Paul was light-years ahead of everyone in the squat, and at the same time he catapulted himself ahead of everyone on the Olympic platform. The increase in his squat paralleled his success in the Olympic lifts. After Paul visited the USSR and astounded them, they began to build squat racks. They soon realized the benefits of the squat. I hear all the time that one only has to squat with 10% more than their best clean and jerk (C&J). But why then do we hear of monster squats by the European SHWs (900 pounds and more)? Well, if my math is correct, they are doing a lot more than 10% over their C&J. The same holds true for D. Aranda of Cuba, a junior world record holder in the C&J with 402. He squats a deep 617. The 175 pound difference is well over 10%!

The squat can be the equalizer for the U.S. lifters. I recall that Kurlovich said the squat had no correlation to the C&J. That may be true for him because of his particular body structure. He quite possibly is built in a way that the legs and low back work heavily in all exercises. But not everyone is in this category. It is true that the squat could increase to the point where it would not help the C&J and snatch, but remember Kurlovich? He claimed a 400 kg. squat. The ability to do 881 could have been the reserve he needed to do those massive snatches and C&J's."

The U.S. lifters need to increase their squat poundages for the main purpose of increasing their absolute strength in the hips, low back, and legs. The squat should be a mojor part of training. Most of the training should be between 50 and 70%. I have a 165 pound lifter that trains with 8 to 12 sets of two reps. Short rest periods are a must (45 to 60 seconds) between sets. He trains with 405-435 and his best contest squat is 722. As you can see, he never uses more than 60%. The same is true for my 220. He never handles a weight over 500, yet made an easy 843 at the Worlds. That is also 60% for his sets of two reps. I have many examples of the 60% rule. Everyone at Westside squats one time a week, followed by a variety of low back and ab work. This is our dynamic method.

We also have a maximum effort day. We manage these great poundages through a high volume of training, coupled with roughly 40 special exercises, using only two or three at a time and rotating them every two or three weeks; this is called conjugate training. If your snatch grip deadlift goes up 50 pounds along with an increase in your high pulls off boxes, your calf-ham-glute and back raises, and your squats, then your snatch is increased. You must set records in many special exercises. Pick a group of exercises that work well for you and rotate them every two or three weeks.

My methods are the reverse of everyone else's. For example, if my lifter does a C&J with 402 and we are trying to compete with a lifter who is capable of 462, my training goal is to bring up the strength to that of our competitor by working towards being equal to his high pulls, squats, back raises, good mornings, etc. When we become equal to him in the special exercises, we will be equal to his 462. The U.S. lifters have the techinal skills but lack a high level of special strength, which can only be developed through special exercises. Progress in a lift does not stall; rather, a particular muscle group stalls. If our bench press stalls, we simply do more special work on the triceps, delts, upper back or lats. That is what is holding back the bench press, not the bench press itself.

I would use the same systrem for the Olympic lifts. Only a few have a perfect balance of muscle groups. Everyone else needs to do a higher volume of work for certain muscle groups. I am certain you have seen lifters with tremendous traps with mediocre erectors or just the opposite. Just look at the photo in MILO, Vol. 3, No. 2, page 31, of Pisarenko doing snatch pulls off a bench. Note first his balanced physical development. Certainly some of it comes from special pulls, such as thoses in the photo. Why do some Russian lifters do snatch pulls while standing in knee-high water? These special exercises
enable them to kick out butt. There is no excuse for a U.S. lifter not to be on page 31 of that issue of MILO.

With a high volume of reverse hypers, belt squats, kneeling squats, and special work with chains for pulling, learning how and why box squatting should be incorporated into training, knowing what percentage and how much volume to use, doing some eccentric, isokinetic, static, and dynamic work and many special exercises, we could move up considerably in the world of weightlifting. If we are to have a chance at the world level, we must learn how to train. If there is an excuse to fall back on, it is not knowing how to train. I would like to say something about Gary Taylor. Here is an unbelievably strong man. Did you notice that he is strong in just about everything he does? I would guess that one exercise contributed to the progress of the next exercise. This is exactly what I am talking about. One needs a widee array of exercises. I am quite sure Gary could still do well in weightlifting and take his fair share of powerlifting trophies as well. Is he a throwback to lifters like Ernie Pickett, Fred Lowe, and Russell Knipp, or is he what should be the future of weightlifting? Mixing an assortment of special exercises to excel in cleaning ability and his unreal push jerk, I think he exemplifies the latter.

Powerlifters sometimes will use the Olympic lifts to help their speed. It would be wise to do special exercises in slow tempo to develop max force in the Olympic lifts. Special exercises will not destroy form, but will in fact bring good form together by reinforcing the weak links. We know that there are six phases in the snatch. I find it hard to believe that each phase is equally developed in most lifters. Find the weak phase and strengthen it through special means. I find a similar problem in the squat. Most lifters base the amount of their squat poundages off their C&J. But American lifters' C&J are so weak that it holds the squat back. Push the squats along with the pulls. Don't do it the other way around. It's not the C&J that should dictate the squats and pulls, but vice versa. The number of training workouts should be between four and a maximum of eight. For now, over eight would lead to overtraining. Once the work capacities are raised, then and only then would more workouts be added. I would raise workloads by reverse hypers and belt squats. Both have rehabilitation qualities and strength building potential. Exercises like walking barbell or dumbbell lunges and static squats against a wall would also be used to raise work capacity. Hip flexor work with either hanging or lying leg raises, one-leg swings, or spread eagle sit-ups would be done. Overhead support work must be done from the front, back, and seated. Different grips would be used. Lots of work for the torso, glutes and hamstrings is needed.

We need to view training tapes of the best lifters between major meets to see what made them strong. We must learn to max out on special exercises to test our strength gains. Learn the difference between a training max and a contest max. I have found success by changing routines and exercises to fit the individual lifter. The body is always changing and so must the training for constant progress."

[J.L.C.]

How many weightlifters has he coached to a national or international level?

[DanielBeauchamp]

I like the part where the training methods of past American greats, like John Davis, aren't even mentioned.

[Kirra]

What the fuck?

What's up with the negativity? Last time I checked weightlifting is a strength sport and if there is anything Louie is good at, it's getting people ridiculously strong. What happened to actually TRYING shit and then coming back and saying that it didn't work?

[jcameron28]

edit: woops^^ i thought this article was posted as satire

I guess props to him for inventing the reverse hyper but really most of the stuff that comes out of that man's mouth is ridiculous.

Besides Verk already had more badass bodyweight alternatives that Simmons just copied anyway.

[Kirra]

edit: woops^^ i thought this article was posted as satire

I guess props to him for inventing the reverse hyper but really most of the stuff that comes out of that man's mouth is ridiculous.

Besides Verk already had more badass bodyweight alternatives that Simmons just copied anyway.

Did you miss the part about how Louie is very good at producing strong lifters? I'd listen carefully instead of scoffing at him.

Simmons has worked with twenty-five World and National Champion powerlifters, twenty-seven lifters who have totaled over 2000 pounds, and a World Record holder in the 400-meter dash (Butch Reynolds). He is a strength consultant for the Cleveland Browns, Green Bay Packers, New England Patriots, Seattle Seahawks and numerous college football teams.

[J.L.C.]

The problem is that his premise is flawed, just like this more recent article.

The idea that US weightlifters aren't competitive internationally because they aren't strong enough is just plain incorrect.

Plenty of US lifters have strength on par with the guys winning medals. However, the technique of US lifters is not on par with that of the medal winning lifters.

Being strong is one thing, having solid technique so you can use that strength to snatch and clean&jerk big weights is another.

You're not likely going to develop elite-level technique performing the lifts once a week as Simmons prescribes.

That article is old and has been debunked all over the intarwebz.

Yes, Simmons has coached a lot of strong powerlifters.

But, powerlifting and weightlifting are two very different sports that require different skills.

[Squinky]

The problem is that his premise is flawed, just like this more recent article.

The idea that US weightlifters aren't competitive internationally because they aren't strong enough is just plain incorrect.

Plenty of US lifters have strength on par with the guys winning medals. However, the technique of US lifters is not on par with that of the medal winning lifters.

Being strong is one thing, having solid technique so you can use that strength to snatch and clean&jerk big weights is another.

You're not likely going to develop elite-level technique performing the lifts once a week as Simmons prescribes.

That article is old and has been debunked all over the intarwebz.

Yes, Simmons has coached a lot of strong powerlifters.

But, powerlifting and weightlifting are two very different sports that require different skills.

Hah.

[jcameron28]

Did you miss the part about how Louie is very good at producing strong lifters? I'd listen carefully instead of scoffing at him.

yes he is a very famous american coach, very good at producing strong lifters in equipped untested feds. He does deserve some respect for his accomplishments in PL but regardless it is undeniable that he says many incredibly stupid things. I cannot manage to take him seriously when it comes to sports performance in anything other than equipped power lifting.

As for the section of american s@c that clings to his nuts and prescribes westside barbell derivatives all year round for every athlete, while there are certainly worse things you can do

,thinking that "conjugate" periodization is the pinnacle of sports science and performance borders on mental retardation. It is painfully obvious that most of big time strength and conditioning in the US is more of a who you know rather than what you know.

[olyw8lifter]

As mentioned above, the negativity is coming from that fact that Simmons is a great POWERLIFTING coach, but really doesn't know anything about coaching Oly lifters (has never done it as far as I know)!! This article has spread all across the interwebz and everybody agrees that his principles toward powerlifting don't work with Oly lifting!!

[Torrtrefireto]

Assumption 1-
American powerlifters dominate the world
What this is supposed to mean-
The conjugate system (westside style) is the best way to get strong
Reality-
Americans are the best multiply lifters because nobody else does it. When it comes to raw and single ply we aren't that good. Certainly not as good as Russia or Taiwan who both use very specific training

Assumption 2-
The good weightlifters don't do the competition lifts very often
Justification-
A few soviet examples
Reality-
Lol no.

Assumption 3-
Americans just aren't strong enough compared to other country's olys
Reality
Srs? If we took a scale of the american record/that holder's squat and compared it to the world record/that holder's squat the american would probably test at a higher 'strength to ability' level at every weight class (aware this really doesn't make a lot of sense)

If his premise was the best way to make olympic lifters good at weightlifting, then China Russia and every other state sponsored country would be doing that... but they aren't

[Iberian80]

Given: America sucks at weightlifting. Hard to argue this, we have no medals.

LS theory: America does not use the conjugate system that has produced great powerlifters.

My question: Why doesn't every other country suck?

Does Russia use the conjugate system? Bulgaria? China? Korea? Iran? Greece? Anyone???

[USAWBrad]

While it would be ignorant to think that none of the lifters for the US were on some sort of banned drug, I think you can make the assumption that the US is much more strict than some of the other countries when it comes to dopping. This would certainly put our weightlifters at a competitive disadvantage internationaly against other countries that are more laid back on their doping control. Louie knows his stuff so certainly he is aware of that glaring difference between his sport and ours, seeing as his isn't tested at all.

[DanielBeauchamp]

While it would be ignorant to think that none of the lifters for the US were on some sort of banned drug, I think you can make the assumption that the US is much more strict than some of the other countries when it comes to dopping. This would certainly put our weightlifters at a competitive disadvantage internationaly against other countries that are more laid back on their doping control. Louie knows his stuff so certainly he is aware of that glaring difference between his sport and ours, seeing as his isn't tested at all.

Yep. It's all about the drugs.

It's obvious the Chinese have 6 toes on their feet and never go for PR's during a full moon, too.

[crackyflipside]

Given: America sucks at weightlifting. Hard to argue this, we have no medals.

LS theory: America does not use the conjugate system that has produced great powerlifters.

My question: Why doesn't every other country suck?

Does Russia use the conjugate system? Bulgaria? China? Korea? Iran? Greece? Anyone???

Russia, China, Korea, Cuba all use the same system (more or less). At the top levels they train 12-15 times/wk. The work is periodized so there is a strength phase with lots of squats, pulls, and power variants of the lifts and slowly that changes to a competition phase where there's more full competition lifts and less squatting and pulls.

Second off, we won a silver medal at this past youth worlds for 94kg. Besides that, yeah no other medals.

Third, american lifters (in general) are weaker than their counterparts in winning countries. They also have worse technique. I asked my coach why americans don't win, he said they don't train enough. Take Kendrick Farris for example, their program is sessions 5/wk. In any other winning country, athletes live in the training halls and train 12-15 times/wk, and these are not athletes doing daily max singles in training, this is periodized volume work.

[jcameron28]

In any other winning country, athletes live in the training halls and train 12-15 times/wk, and these are not athletes doing daily max singles in training, this is periodized volume work.

Would be really interesting to see what concentrated strength blocks, peaking phases etc look like with that kind of frequency and volume. Do you have any links with examples or literature on oly periodization with really high workloads?

[crackyflipside]

Would be really interesting to see what concentrated strength blocks, peaking phases etc look like with that kind of frequency and volume. Do you have any links with examples or literature on oly periodization with really high workloads?

I don't have a long program yet but got a few things. I don't have any 3/day programming but here is 2/day. This is ten days of women's training:

1) Power snatch – 50% 3r x 3 / 70% 3r x 4
Power clean + Push Press – 50% (1+1r)3r x 2 / 65% (1+1r)3r x 4
Front Squat – 60% 3r x 2 / 75% 3r x 4

2) AM) Power snatch – 50% 3r x 3 / 70% 3r x 4
BTN Jerk – 60% 3r x 3 / 65% 3r / 70% 2r x 3
Front Squat – 60% 3r x 2 / 75% 2r x 3
PM)Snatch – 50% 3r x 3 / 70% 3r x 2 / 80% 3r / 90% 3r x 3
Clean and jerk – 60% 2r x 3 / 70% 2r x 2 / 80% 2r / 90% 2r x 3
Back squat – 70% 3r x 2 / 80% 3r / 85% 3r / 90% 3r x 3

3) Hang snatch – 50% 3r x 2 / 70% 3r x 2 / 80% 3r x 3
Power clean + Push Press – 60% (1+1r)3r x 3 / 65% (1+1r)3r / 70% (1+1r)2r x 3
Front squat – 60% 3r x 2 / 75% 3r x 2 / 85% 3r / 95% 2r x 4
Clean pull – 100% 3r / 110% 3r / 115% 2r x 3

4) Rest

5) AM) Snatch + Snatch pull – 50% (1+1r)4r x 2 / 70% (1+1r)4r x 4
BTN push press – 40% 3r x 2 / 60% 3r x 4
Front squat – 60% 3r x 2 / 75% 3r / 80% 2r x 3
PM) Snatch – 50% 3r x 2 / 70% 3r x 2 / 80% 2r x 2 / 90% 1r x 3
Clean and jerk – 55% 2r x 3 / 70% 2r / 80% 2r / 85% 2r x 3
Back squat: 70% 3r / 80% 3r / 85% 3r / 90% 2r x 4 / 75% 3r

6) Hang snatch – 50% 3r x 2 / 70% 3r x 2 / 80% 2r x 4
Power clean + push press – 55% (1+1r)3r x 2 / 65% (1+1r)3r / 70% (1+1r)2r x 3
Front squat – 60% 3r x 2 / 75% 3r / 85% 3r / 95% 2r x 3

7) AM) Power snatch: 50% 3r x 3 / 70% 3r x 4
BTN jerk – 50% 3r x 2 / 65% 3r x 4
Front squat – 60% 3r x 2 / 75% 3r / 80% 3r x 2
PM) Snatch – 50% 3r x 3 / 70% 2r x 2 / 80% 1r x 2 / 90% 1r / 95% 1r x 3
Clean and jerk: 60% 2r x 3 / 70% 2r / 80% 1r x 2 / 85% 1r / 90% 1r x 3
Back squat: 70% 3r x 2 / 80% 2r / 85% 2r / 90% 2r x 3

8) Power snatch – 50% 3r x 3 / 60% 3r / 70% 2r x 3
Clean and jerk – 50% 3r x 2 / 65% 2r / 70% 2r x 3
Front squat – 60% 2r / 75% 2r / 85% 1r x 2

9) Snatch – 50% 3r x 2 / 70% 2r x 2 / 80% 1r x 2 / 90% 1r / 95% 1r x 3
Clean and jerk – 60% 2r x 2 / 70% 2r / 80% 1r / 85% 1r / 90% 1r / 95% 1r x 2
Back squat – 70% 2r / 80% 2r / 85% 3r x 2

10) Rest

[ViKtoricus]

How many weightlifters has he coached to a national or international level?

EXACTLY.

I have read this article before. At first I was impressed. The guy is well-read.

But then I realized, there is no better wisdom than experience gained from real life. Louie has jack-**** experience with training national-level weightlifters.

[ViKtoricus]

What the f*** is this b******t?

[slowman41]

I don't think people realize that americans are getting better.

this subject has been beaten to death already, but beginning training at a young age is paramount to success on the world level. There are some very talented lifters coming up through the ranks now, and it will be quite the show in the next few years to see how they do.

Zygmunt is doing an excellent job at the otc training the lifters. As an example, he put over 25kg on the 85kg jr champ's total in about 4 months!!

[Iberian80]

Russia, China, Korea, Cuba all use the same system (more or less). At the top levels they train 12-15 times/wk. The work is periodized so there is a strength phase with lots of squats, pulls, and power variants of the lifts and slowly that changes to a competition phase where there's more full competition lifts and less squatting and pulls.

Second off, we won a silver medal at this past youth worlds for 94kg. Besides that, yeah no other medals.

Third, american lifters (in general) are weaker than their counterparts in winning countries. They also have worse technique. I asked my coach why americans don't win, he said they don't train enough. Take Kendrick Farris for example, their program is sessions 5/wk. In any other winning country, athletes live in the training halls and train 12-15 times/wk, and these are not athletes doing daily max singles in training, this is periodized volume work.

That's my point. The system developed in Russia by guys like Roman and Medvedyev and the rest of their weightlifting scientist has been refined by and now used by not just the Russians but also the Chinese and Koreans who as of late have had great success. This type of training has shown to produce the most champions. The theory, data, research, time, and ultimately the results are impressive.

The problem for the USA team is going to be getting kids from 10yrs old to commit to a life where by the time they are 21 they are lifting 12-15 times/wk. Odds are stacked against us because other countries namely China have kids stacked up waiting for the chance to lift 15 times/wk. Training and the human will to succeed are great but if 1 million Chinese kids are vying for a chance to lift at the olympic level and 1 thousand US kids are it is almost a fact that the kid with the best genetics and potential isn't going to be the kid from the US. Even if our training was as refined as theirs.

At this point US champions will be the exception rather than the rule.

[DanielBeauchamp]

That's my point. The system developed in Russia by guys like Roman and Medvedyev and the rest of their weightlifting scientist has been refined by and now used by not just the Russians but also the Chinese and Koreans who as of late have had great success. This type of training has shown to produce the most champions. The theory, data, research, time, and ultimately the results are impressive.

The problem for the USA team is going to be getting kids from 10yrs old to commit to a life where by the time they are 21 they are lifting 12-15 times/wk. Odds are stacked against us because other countries namely China have kids stacked up waiting for the chance to lift 15 times/wk. Training and the human will to succeed are great but if 1 million Chinese kids are vying for a chance to lift at the olympic level and 1 thousand US kids are it is almost a fact that the kid with the best genetics and potential isn't going to be the kid from the US. Even if our training was as refined as theirs.

At this point US champions will be the exception rather than the rule.

I think that's an overly pessimistic viewpoint (not to attack what you're saying, you understand). The U.S. + Canada have produced some dominant champions in the past such as Doug Hepburn and John Davis. As to why we're not doing so well recently, that's anybody's guess. However, I don't think it's because we've been ousted by "superior genetics" of any sort.

[DanielBeauchamp]

...

True. I think this leads right into another good point: you have to have the determination and mindset to become a champion; it's not enough to simply train like one.

As Steiner once said: "You can make it to the top without a lot of things - but there never yet was a man who made it without the resolve to do so."

[slowman41]

I think that's an overly pessimistic viewpoint ..
.

not really. As Pendlay said here before, in those other countries you better your life by becoming a weightlifter. Here, you must sacrifice to become one. (meaning, there is no means to support yourself by being a weightlifter in the US)

[DanielBeauchamp]

not really. As Pendlay said here before, in those other countries you better your life by becoming a weightlifter. Here, you must sacrifice to become one. (meaning, there is no means to support yourself by being a weightlifter in the US)

And yet it has been done, as evidenced by men like John Davis.

I think it's a lot harder in the U.S.A. and Canada, certainly, but I see it as an advantage. To have the mental fortitude to work up to that level (even with a "disability," so to speak) will certainly give you an edge over the opposition. So even if our champions are never as numerous as some other countries, I have no doubt that they will be far more capable provided they possess the iron will necessary to preserver.

John Davis went undefeated from October 23, 1938 to August 30, 1953 when he was dethroned by Canadian Doug Hepburn in Sweden. I need not mention that both of these lifters were drug-free and had tremendous strength in many lifts, despite the fact that Davis spent much of his training in a basement cellar with a single barbell and no fancy equipment + had his career interrupted by a World War. I see no reason why another man like this can't come along.


/shameless North American promotion

[crackyflipside]

How anybody did before 1960 is irrelevant now. All the science there was in the sport was extremely basic. Robert Roman (and other soviet researchers) developed the science and the results are easily visible looking at results from 1960 and on. In 1970's Bulgaria began to dominate the sport with their different way of training. Russians adopted an intensification in weightlifting training in the mid-1970's spearheaded by Prilepin's work with the junior team.

In the 1984 Olympics the Soviets did not participate so you see the Chinese and Romanian squads dominating the field (with their soviet coaches) so you see the development of those squads in future Olympics coming from winning these medals. In the 1988 Olympics the soviets were back in force but the majority of medalists came from other USSR-friendly countries; mirroring the political problems in the USSR, the coaches were leaving Russia to train elsewhere for better money. 1992 Olympics showed the collapse of the USSR as those same Soviet friendly countries dominated the medals.

After that you see an explosion in the region around Armenia, Iran, Turkey, and Greece with regard to weightlifting medals; I wish I knew if they were working off of Soviet methods, the remnants of Bulgaria's methods, or new research. Around 2000 you see Greece starting to fall off the map and the scandal in 2008 killed off weightlifting there for a while. Pretty much now the main contenders in weightlifting are the Soviet-buddy countries and way out southeastern Europe (Armenia, Turkey, and Iran).

[John Prophet]

some good points made.

Another issue is that Russia, China, Bulgaria, Turkey etc have a current TRADITION of winning medals. So there is no ice breaking or pioneering involved. All a new lifter has to do is follow in the steps of the guy 4 years older than him etc.

Currently, Americans dont have that advantage. As stated by others, at anytime a new John Davis could come along. Almost all of the training info needed is available. There are no "secrets." Randy Barnes sort of showed the way in shotput. Bobby Fischer did it in chess.

Otherwise, the same limitations apply to track and field, yet we do ok there and sometimes dominate. There are no lucrative contracts waiting for sprinters yet we do fine in sprintng etc. That same exact fast twitch genetic pool would work fine for oly lifting. But again, there is no tradition to get the kids started. All kids run in the schoolyard etc but often they dont see weights until 14-15yrs old.

Same for gymnastics. We have plenty of medals and plenty of little girls line up for gymnastics and there is no pot of gold at the end of that rainbow either.

Swimming? Cycling? What...different genes?? We have plenty of gene power here in America.


And for me, after everything is said, it is rather mind blowing that we cant win medals. I mean really...look at the countries that have recently won some medals in international comps. Mexico, Cuba, Armenia, Columbia, Nigeria, Vietnam, Egypt, Iran, Dominican Republic, Latvia, Slovakia, Moldova. No disrespect to them, but those countries can win medals but we cant?? huh???

You mean those countries have some advantage we dont? of all the countries, WE are the one country where somehow conditions dont allow us to win at weightlifting??

----


I stand corrected to a degree. I see Cheryl Haworth won some bronzes. I feel encouraged now...we are right up there with Slovakia!!

[slowman41]

Otherwise, the same limitations apply to track and field, yet we do ok there and sometimes dominate. There are no lucrative contracts waiting for sprinters yet we do fine in sprintng etc.

Swimming? Cycling? What...different genes?? We have plenty of gene power here in America.

Usain Bolt (not american, but makes the point) was making $1.5mil/yr from Puma, and is supposedly making a lot more now with his sponsorship extension through 2013

Michael Phelps is sponsored by:

Speedo USA - maker of swimsuits, a licensed brand of the Warnaco Group Inc.

Visa Inc. - the credit card company

Omega - luxury watchmaker that is a unit of Swatch Group AG

Hilton Hotels Corp. - hotel chain

PowerBar - nutrition bar made by Swiss chocolate maker Nestle SA.

AT&T Inc. - communications provider

Kellogg Co. - maker of Frosted Flakes, Cheez-Its and Eggo waffles

Rosetta Stone Ltd. - language learning software maker

PureSport - sports performance beverage, made by Human Performance Labs

SwimRoom.com - Internet site for swimmers

Source: Sports and entertainment marketing company Octagon.

Lance Armstrong got almost 32mil from the post office during its sponsorship, and I can only imagine Nike is paying up huge as well (not to mention trek, and any other sponsors)

meanwhile,

Kendrick is sponsored by Progenex, an "eleeet" crossfit protein/supp company.

do you see an issue here?

[John Prophet]

Usain Bolt (not american, but makes the point) was making $1.5mil/yr from Puma, and is supposedly making a lot more now with his sponsorship extension through 2013

Michael Phelps is sponsored by:



Lance Armstrong got almost 32mil from the post office during its sponsorship, and I can only imagine Nike is paying up huge as well (not to mention trek, and any other sponsors)

meanwhile,

Kendrick is sponsored by Progenex, an "eleeet" crossfit protein/supp company.

do you see an issue here?

I stand corrected to a degree.


Then again, lets get real about it....do u put Kendrick ANYWHERE near Lance or Phelps or Usain???? How many olympic golds or world championships does he have?


Thats sort of another thing working againt Americans. Look at Kendrick. With our info-media obsessed country, dude already thinks he's a star. Look at his website...."King of the platform"

I aint downing the guy but if I was his coach id set him down and say "dude, u wouldnt make 3rd string on most eastern euro teams, you aint quite ready to call yourself the king"


instead our lifters blog every workout etc etc, lol


any American who did in weightlifting what Phelps, Armstrong, or Bolt have done would see the same $$$ rewards



2 weeks spent visiting a Chinese or Russian or Turkish training camp would probably do our "stars" a lot of good as they watch lifters in lower weight classes warm up with our maxes